MUHAMMAD ALI/CASSIUS CLAY - Facts, Fantasy & Fiction

[Zelley]

Some say Muhammad Ali (aka Cassius Cla y) is the greatest!

Without a doubt, Muhammad Ali has had the greatest influence in the understanding,
and appreciation of our great sport over the last fifty or so years. But when it comes to discussing
Ali, the boxer, emotional intelligence is often left in the cookie jar, and raw emotion often
clouds the real effective and objective analysis of Muhammad Ali.

My personal experience with Muhammad Ali is limited to one meeting with him in 1972, when two of us were invited by Ali to talk about boxing while Ali was staying at the Georgia Hotel in Vancouver. I thank ex-boxer Manuel (Manny) Gonzalez an the old time boxing trainer
Billy DeFoe of Houston, Texas for being the instruments that enabled two of us amateur boxers
from Nanaimo, BC to be invited into Ali's world. Without a doubt, this was one great moment.

The raw emotion concerning Muhammad Ali was often present in great big scoops in
the "Sound Off" columns of "World Boxing" and "International Boxing" in the Seventies.
It seems so long ago, but the hottest emotional views expressed by boxing fans were
the great debates over Muhammad Ali and Jerry Quarry. But pleased to say, others such
as Jose Napoles, Emile Griffith, Eder Jofre, and Vincente Saldivar got a piece of the
"Sound Off" action.

Heated emotion aside, there is a need to sort out the facts, fantasy and fiction
when it is time to discuss ALI the boxer, we must be prepared to remove the
rose tinted glasses or the dark eye shades when trying to judge Ali as the best of the best.
Without a doubt, Ali is one of the all time greats, but the best heavyweight of all time
is subject to the reality of facts. ALI is a great boxer, not some Hollywood action fantasy figure. :idea:

Of all the boxers that fought in their prime in the Sixties, Emile Griffith is often considered the best. But, for pure skill and performance boxer Eder Jofre is hard to beat. :?? :idea:

[Collins2000]

Some say Muhammed Ali (aka Cassius Cla y) is the greatest!

Without a doubt, Muhammed Ali has had the greatest influence in the understanding,
and appreciation of our great sport over the last fifty or so years. But when it comes to discussing
Ali, the boxer, emotional intelligence is often left in the cookie jar, and raw emotion often
clouds the real effective and objective analysis of Muhammed Ali.

My personal experience with Muhammed Ali is limited to one meeting with him in 1972, when two of us were invited by Ali to talk about boxing while Ali was staying at the Georgia Hotel in Vancouver. I thank ex-boxer Manuel (Manny) Gonzalez an the old time boxing trainer
Billy DeFoe of Houston, Texas for being the instruments that enabled two of us amateur boxers
from Nanaimo, BC to be invited into Ali's world. Without a doubt, this was one great moment.

The raw emotion concerning Muhammed Ali was often present in great big scoops in
the "Sound Off" columns of "World Boxing" and "International Boxing" in the Seventies.
It seems so long ago, but the hottest emotional views expressed by boxing fans were
the great debates over Muhammed Ali and Jerry Quarry. But pleased to say, others such
as Jose Napoles, Emile Griffith, Eder Jofre, and Vincente Saldivar got a piece of the
"Sound Off" action.

Heated emotion aside, there is a need to sort out the facts, fantasy and fiction
when it is time to discuss ALI the boxer, we must be prepared to remove the
rose tinted glasses or the dark eye shades when trying to judge Ali as the best of the best.
Without a doubt, Ali is one of the all time greats, but the best heavyweight of all time
is subject to the reality of facts. ALI is a great boxer, not some Hollywood action fantasy figure. :idea:

Of all the boxers that fought in their prime in the Sixties, Emile Griffith is often considered the best. But, for pure skill and performance boxer Eder Jofre is hard to beat. :?? :idea:

[Zelley]

Collins2000

I appreciate you highlighting Emile Griffith, because he is part of the ALI/CLAY story :idea:

Some may disagree, but they are only looking through a microscope and
not the telescope of broad thinking with an objective eye for a proper
analysis of ALI, the boxer. Can you dig it!

[HomicideHenry]

Best fighter of the 1960's, least imo, wasnt Griffith...

Dick Tiger, Eder Jofre, Jose Naples take the cake

[Zelley]

Best fighter of the 1960's, least imo, wasnt Griffith...

Dick Tiger, Eder Jofre, Jose Naples take the cake

Thanks, but this is a Muhammad Ali thread.

[Collins2000]

Best fighter of the 1960's, least imo, wasnt Griffith...

Dick Tiger, Eder Jofre, Jose Naples take the cake

Thanks, but this is a Muhammad Ali thread.

So what was the point of making a rather outlandish claim regarding Emile Griffith?

[Collins2000]

Collins2000

I appreciate you highlighting Emile Griffith, because he is part of the ALI/CLAY story :idea:

Some may disagree, but they are only looking through a microscope and
not the telescope of broad thinking with an objective eye for a proper
analysis of ALI, the boxer. Can you dig it!

The correct question, as posed by Booker T, is not "can you dig it!" but, rather, "Can you dig it, Sucka?"

[HomicideHenry]

Okay, here's some little known facts about Muhammad Ali:

Bare knuckle fighters Lenny McLean and Roy Shaw at one time or another, tried to arrange fights with Muhammad Ali. Shaw, of course, had a bigger case than McLean, as he defeated former title challenger Ron Stander in an unlicensed bout. McLean, was shot down, as Ali's management more or less told McLean that they didnt want Ali associated with unlicensed boxing, considering all the horse shit Ali went through to get his license back.

Had the fights come off, Ali would have easily defeated both men. McLean had already done lost to Shaw, and Cliff Fields as well as Johnny Waldron. Shaw, by that time, was already on the downside, and would lose twice to McLean. Both men, however great as they were in unlicensed boxing, avoided bare knuckler Bartley Gorman.

In 1983, Ali would meet Gorman, and the two shadow-boxed. Ali was amused, and tried to psyche Gorman out saying, "I was champion of the world three times." Gorman said quickly "Yeah but I am the Lord of The Lanes."

*****************************************************************

Remember Ali-Chamberlain? Well, evidentially, Ali wasnt the only option open for Chamberlain. On the cover of RING magazine, October 1965, Chamberlain was pictured alongside former champion Floyd Patterson.

http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/Image:65Oct.jpg

Fortunately, for Chamberlain, he never entered the squared circle.

*****************************************************************

Remember in 1976? Muhammad Ali announced an interest in fighting 2x gold medalist Teofilio Stevenson. Promoters around the country were offering 5 million dollars for the Cuban to make his debut. Some suggested that the two men fight a series of four rounders through the period of a week, and whoever came out on top would be champ, while others said it would be a 15 rounder. Stevenson refused, stating "Whats five million dollars compared to the love of eight million Cubans?"

Steven, would later appear in the 1978 issue of RING magazine, and again, talks buzzed on whether he'd fight Ali or not. It never happened. Ironically, many in boxing believed he could have become the champ. Foreman said of Stevenson, that he could have turned pro and become the champ any time he wanted to. Ali, when asked how the bout would have gone, said the verdict would have been a draw.

I imagine, Ali said this, more out of respect for Stevenson's stance on his country than anything else. It had to have made Ali remember when he was champ in the 1960's and he stood up to the draft. Some things, are bigger than money, and certainly bigger than boxing.

[Collins2000]

...It had to have made Ali remember when he was champ in the 1960's and he stood up to the draft...

Man, I wish Paddy Terap was allowed to post; he'd have gone crazy over that statement. Abso-fekkin-lutely beserk he would have gone.

[HomicideHenry]

why is that? Ali did dodge the draft.

[Collins2000]

why is that? Ali did dodge the draft.

First you said 'stood up to' and now you say 'dodged'.

Rufus, are you a total simpleton?

You don't remember terap and how he hated anything to do with black people standing up for their rights?

You don't remember at all how he claimed black people had nothing to complain about in the 1960's in Alabama and how it was all a left wing conspiracy and how they would have been happier left under Jim Crow laws?

Man, it was only 6 months ago that he was here under his last incarnation of granberry until me and Mr Baltazar outed him as being Paddy Dolan a nobody from the 70's with a chip on his shoulder after getting caught falsifying his fighters records.

You can't remember any of that, Rufus? You got something wrong with you besides that manic/depressive thing you mentioned once? Like senile dementia or micro-cephalism?

You want to get your (pin)head out of your arse and start listening to what is going on around you rather than sleep-walking through life in a fantasy.

And go and delete that rubbish on the other page about how you used to fight gypsies in bare knuckle matches because it aint true, it never happened and you are starting to worry me now with all the lies. It was funny at first but now I think you are starting to believe your own stories.

[Collins2000]

I have been in gypsy/rover/traveller bouts myself, some bare knuckle, others with gloves, and alot of times there never was no rounds.

What's the point in posting this bullsh*t, Rufus?

[HomicideHenry]

WTF Collins?

What did I ever do to you? Haven't you ever been in bar fights? Fights in parking lots? Shit like that? When I say bareknuckle gypsy/rover/traveller bouts, that is what I mean. There aint no damned gypsies anywhere around where I live, so yeah, I'm sorry for using the gypsy references.

[Robinson]

street fights are different to organises bare knuckle bouts..

its sad you can not tell the difference...

A school yard scrap or random fight at a party is different to
a pre organised bout before an organised crowd etc under
some sort of rules....

What you said in both posts HH is a little tarded mate..not to be
mean or anything.

You may as well as say you are 10-0 in organises bare knuckle
bouts under London Prize Rules...your record would be as legitimate
and credible as your Joe Savages 42-0

[Collins2000]

WTF Collins?

What did I ever do to you? Haven't you ever been in bar fights? Fights in parking lots? Shit like that? When I say bareknuckle gypsy/rover/traveller bouts, that is what I mean. There aint no damned gypsies anywhere around where I live, so yeah, I'm sorry for using the gypsy references.

Mate, we've all had the odd street fight growing up in working class areas. But only you seem to blown it all out of proportion. Now, after reading a bit about Bartley Gorman, you are suddenly writing crap about how you fought gypsies in bare knuckle fights to the finish.

Get a life, son.

[HomicideHenry]

I never said I fought gypsies. I said I had bare knuckle and gloved "matches" with people. Some were organized, and some weren't (bar fights are an excellent example). I dont care Collins, I never say shit about you, not once, but then you want to slam me? fornicate off.

[Collins2000]

I never said I fought gypsies. I said I had bare knuckle and gloved "matches" with people. Some were organized, and some weren't (bar fights are an excellent example). I dont care Collins, I never say shit about you, not once, but then you want to slam me? eff off.

http://forum.boxrec.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 9#p1654599

Try and keep your lies straight, mate.

It's bad enough being a liar but being a hopeless liar...

[Zelley]

Best fighter of the 1960's, least imo, wasnt Griffith...

Dick Tiger, Eder Jofre, Jose Naples take the cake

Thanks, but this is a Muhammad Ali thread.

So what was the point of making a rather outlandish claim regarding Emile Griffith?

Based on the champions performance, Emile Griffith was voted the best champion in the Sixties
in "Boxing Illustrated". That is true, but like some say, Eder Jofre is a strong choice.

For Muhammad Ali, his pro performance in the Sixties was broken into two parts.

1. Tunney Hunsaker (1960) to Henry Cooper (1963)
2. Sonny Liston (1964) to Zora Folley (1967)
Then he was inactive until his 1970 bout with Jerry Quarry.

In stage one, he did well except for the bouts with Doug Jones (1963).
Some analysts believe the slick young Cassius Clay earned a gift decision.
In the Henry Cooper bout there were some shenanigans in Ali's corner, but he still won the
fight and earned his shot against Charles (Sonny) Liston.

Ali's various shots against Liston, Patterson, Chuvalo, Cooper, London,
Mildenberger, Williams, Terrell and Zora Folley were exciting and interesting
but would hardly be nominated as top fights of the decade. For Ali, his best year in the
Sixties was likely 1966. Fights like the Jose Torres vs Eddie Cotton,
Emile Griffith vs Nino Benvenuti and Floyd Patterson vs Ingemar Johannson
would be much better

[Collins2000]

Based on the champions performance, Emile Griffith was voted the best champion in the Sixties
in "Boxing Illustrated". That is true, but like some say, Eder Jofre is a strong choice.

For Muhammad Ali, his pro performance in the Sixties was broken into to parts.

1. Tunney Hunsaker (1960) to Henry Cooper (1963)
2. Sonny Liston (1964) to Zora Folley (1967)
Then he was inactive until his 1970 bout with Jerry Quarry.

In stage one, he did well except for the bouts with Doug Jones (1963).
Some analysts believe the slick young Cassius Clay earned a gift decision.
In the Henry Cooper bout there were some shenigans in Ali's corner, but he still won the
fight and earned his shot against Charles (Sonny) Liston.

Ali's various shots against Liston, Patterson, Chuvalo, Cooper, London,
Mildenberger, Williams, Terrell and Zora Folley were exciting and interesting
but would hardly be nominated as top fights of the decade. For Ali, is best year in the
Sixties was likely 1966. Fights like the Jose Torres vs Eddie Cotton,
Emile Griffith vs Nino Benvenuti and Floyd Patterson vs Ingemar Johannson
would be much better

Thanks for the info, mate, but even Buzzy knew all that............... and more.

[Zelley]

As of 1967, Ali did so much for boxing. Before. Ali boxing was on the ropes with
the shenanigans and control of boxing. The sport was suffering from bad press
due to the Emile Griffith - Benny Kid Paret and the Sugar Ramos - Davey Moore
tragedies.

But following his Olympic victory in 1960, Ali, then known as Cassius Clay, would rock the world
that would improve the image of the sport and bring thousands of new fans to the sport.
During the Sixties, he was like no other heavyweight in the history of the sport
before or after.

For boxing fans, 1968 and 1969 were strange years without "The Greatest" in action.
In the heavyweight division, there were many fine heavyweights including the oldtimer
Floyd Patterson and Joe Frazier. In other divisions,
the sport was kept alive with the likes of Bob Foster, Nino Benvenuti, and
the tragic Teo Cruz,

If Ali had not returned to the ring in 1970, it is difficult to determine how he would
be ranked in the list of top heavyweights or great fighters. But, in many ways
he had to return to the ring or his legacy would forever be coupled with the
protests and controversy of the Vietnam War in the USA. Highly likely, in places
like Canada and England, his refusal to sign-up for military service in an unjust
war would not tarnish his image, but elevate him to a higher level of respect.
Today, that circumstance is academic, he did return in 1970 for a decade more of ring glory.
But, the Ali of 1970 was not the Ali of 1967. Despite many great bouts, there were a
few points that would slowly accumulate to end his days as a boxer.
:> The uncertain road ahead 1970 to 1980. :??

[Zelley]

Best fighter of the 1960's, least imo, wasnt Griffith...

Dick Tiger, Eder Jofre, Jose Naples take the cake

Thanks, but this is a Muhammad Ali thread.

So what was the point of making a rather outlandish claim regarding Emile Griffith?

Not such an outlandish claim concerning Emile, any objective boxing analysist would
have to consider Griffith as the best champion of the Sixties. Boxing being boxing,
it is not likely to be a unanimous pick.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

As of 1967, Ali did so much for boxing. Before. Ali boxing was on the ropes with
the shenanigans and control of boxing. The sport was suffering from bad press
due to the Emile Griffith - Benny Kid Paret and the Sugar Ramos - Davey Moore
tragedies.

But following his Olympic victory in 1960, Ali, then known as Cassius Clay, would rock the world
that would improve the image of the sport and bring thousands of new fans to the sport.
During the Sixties, he was like no other heavyweight in the history of the sport
before or after.?

- Dude, no offense, but that is revisionist horse hockey.

Initially Cassius Clay was considered the young dynamic fresh face in boxing, hence some of his early stoppages, advantageous officiating, and early title shot.

The Liston series tossed a big heap of horse hockey in Boxing's punch bowl what with Liston's quitting and diving performances and Ali's NOI conversion and name change. Liston was hauled up before Congress and then blackballed by boxing. Ali queued back into 1A active draft status and stripped of his title in the middle of huge nationwide riots, bombings, and daily protest marches over civil rights and the Vietnam War on top of the vicious Cold War stuggle.

That Ali was unlike any heavy in history is true, but only to a point and not just the 60s. He transcended the sport like Sullivan, Dempsey, Louis, and Robinson were able to do.

The Chamberlain bout was not just a rumor. D'amato took on Wilt as a project for the single specific Ali title shot. D'amato wouldn't have bothered to waste his time if he didn't think Wilt was the goods no matter what the conventional ninnies dismiss about his chances. The fight got to the signing day when last minute haggles over guarantees Wilt was demanding for losing an entire year's basketball pay couldn't be met and the fight unraveled like thousands before and after it have done.

6-9, 335lb Big Cat Ernie Ladd was also in the mix, but was never in training like Wilt, never featured in the media like Wilt other than as a rumor, and never got to signing day like Wilt, a true rumor.

[Zelley]

THE ROPE-A DOPE: "The old Ali has departed"

.With the return of Ali in 1970 there were many great fights, but some negatives were his reduced speed and movement. This was demonstrated in his Vancouver bout against George Chuvalo in 1972 when Ali copied Canadian boxer Charley Chase and lay on the ropes taking punches. It was later called
the rope-a-dope. Over time, the reduced speed and fluid movement
of the once fleet footed Cassius Clay would result in Ali being on the receiving end of many blistering punches.

[jaclem2]

this is not a commentary on ali's ability as a fighter:

just this, one more time: ali did NOT dodge the draft. he used his legal right as a concientious (sp?) objector. He was illegaly stripped of his titlle and his right to fight. the government stole his passport so he couldn't fight out of the united states. he sued for these rights to be given back to him and eventually the courts decided in his favor. by that time he lost three of his prime physical years
i have no idea what his motivation was for not going into service - be they his claim for religious reasons or if he just didn't want to get shot by some redneck
"by accident" in some indeavor.

From time to time the federal governent over plays its hand and and the fascist come out of the corner. i am proud to say i was fired from my radio show for giving advice on how to avoid the draft in that illegal viet nam war.

we have had eight years of people in the highest places of government who wore suits and ties but in their hearts they were wearing brown shirts.

damn - i intended to just explain why ali was not a draft dodger- a matter of fact and not opinion- and O got carried away again. well, the hell with it...

[Zelley]

this is not a commentary on ali's ability as a fighter:

just this, one more time: ali did NOT dodge the draft. he used his legal right as a concientious (sp?) objector. He was illegaly stripped of his titlle and his right to fight. the government stole his passport so he couldn't fight out of the united states. he sued for these rights to be given back to him and eventually the courts decided in his favor. by that time he lost three of his prime physical years

Good points! The three plus years likely were the difference that eliminates ALI from being
one of the top ten fighters of all time. Of course, many would still place Ali in the top ten category along with Robinson, Armstrong, Duran, Pep, Ross, Canzoneri and Wilde. But in reality,
can Ali's post 1969 activity raise him to super champion status.

The first clear sign that Ali was not the fleet footed fighter was his bout with Oscar Bonavena,
and then the super fight with Joe Frazier that saw Ali take many shots that would have never landed in his title defences of the Sixties. This was followed by a losing effort and
a broken jaw at the hands of Ken Norton in 1973. Even in the 1972 bout against
George Chuvalo was strange with Ali laying against the ropes, while Chuvalo rained punches on his arms and body. This technique/strategy would later receive hype with the Foreman bout,
as if Ali invented the strategy just for Foreman, when a Canadian boxer had previously used
the "rope-a-dope" against Chuvalo on a card that Ali appeared in a number of exhibition bouts.
The long term effect of a rope-a-dope strategy is to take punches on the arms, but enough
do land to send the boxer on the long road to nowhere! :shame. In one record book the
January 1972 exhibitions by Ali didn"t appear in the record but shows some July 1 exhibitions.
The Ali - Chuvalo bout took place in May 1972. :??