Jack Dempsey: The Truth of The Legend

[BoxBuzz]

So when a "liar" repents he goes straight? Not in my experience....they just change the tone,shade, and hue of the fact-mangling. I do understand what your trying to say, but to imagine that the truth of the past becomes clearer based on a so called repentant liar, takes a bit of faith that I have yet to attain. In fact I have found in life that "Reasons" don't always have a lot to do with lies. More often it's simply all about certain peoples love of creating fiction.

[dempseyfire]

Hmmm, so any testimony by criminals then should be thrown out? We would have never crushed the Mafia in the United States without a little something called rats.

Anyway, the burden of proof is actually on YOU and not me. There is no evidence whatsoever any of his major fights were fixed in anyway. Judging by the film, by how he fared in his losses, it all points to Carnera being a solid fighter.

[Ambling Alp]

Not sure how this Thread got to be about Primo Carnera. (Maybe it was because most of the criticisms of Dempsey were so stupid.) but anyway I thought I would make a few important points about Carnera:

-It doesn't appear that Carnera himself knew about opponents taking a dive when he was fighting them.

-From what I have heard the fights that were supposedly fixed were against tomato cans that he would have beaten anyway. It was matter of winning the "over-under" of how many rounds the fight was supposed to go. In another words if the over/under was 5 rounds, the mob guys would make sure the opponent would take a dive before 5 rounds.

-To me the big question when rating Carnera is this: Is there any specific fights that Carnera won over a quality opponent that there is really any proof that was fixed?

(I know there were rumours about the Sharkey fight but to me it just appears that Carnera just happened to catch Sharkey with a good punch.)

I would be interested to hear any "evidence" that the "fix was in" in one of his big wins, but so far I haven't heard any.

[BoxBuzz]

I agree about the punch being genuine that KO'd Sharkey, I also am of the opinion that Sharkey "made a date" with that punch.

Nevertheless when it comes to Carnera it's about his skill level. I just don't see it on a par with other champions UNTIL you get into the current alphabet soup mess. Yep he's in a leage with other champs....Bruce Seldon being one of them.

[HomicideHenry]

In 1924, Jack Dempsey's #1 contender was Harry Wills, followed by these men:

Tommy Gibbons
Charley Weinert
Quintin Romero Rojas
Jack Renault
Luis Angel Firpo
George Godfrey
Jim Maloney
Erminio Spalla

In 1925, Wills is still the #1 contender, followed by these men:

Gene Tunney
Jack Renault
Bud Gorman
George Godfrey
Jack Sharkey
Young Bob Fitzsimmons
Paolino Uzcudun
Jim Maloney
Harry Persson
King Solomon
Johnny Risko
Ray Neuman
Jim Keeley

1926, Dempsey was no longer the champ. He chose Tunney over his #1 man.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

1926, Dempsey was no longer the champ. He chose Tunney over his #1 man.

- Props for the period rankings, but Dempsey never chose squat for his defenses.

Kearns and Rickard did the picking. After leaving Kearns and bypassing Rickard, Dempsey couldn't make the fight with Wills happen because national politics wouldn't provide a venue for the fight so the promoter could raise the money.

Jack instead becomes a movie star millionaire for 3 yrs living the dream of working with his newly wed actress wife and running with the GOLDEN ERA Roaring 20s Hollywood stars. Rickard put together a tourney eliminator to challenge his title for the richest purse in boxing history. Wills was invited but refused to participate, perhaps thinking he wouldn't get a fair shake against Tunney, his matchup.

Instead, Gibbons steps in for Wills in a single eliminator and Gene disposes of him in what appears to be his last bout. It was a deal Rickard put together. Jack would fight anyone once the bell rang.

[Tantum]

[HomicideHenry]

BTW, since Tantum brought up the plaster.....


Cleveland Williams did a test of the old legend of Dempsey using plaster of paris against Willard. Williams hit a punching bag all of one time, and it all exploded into dust. Williams said, it wouldnt have helped anyone, let alone Dempsey one iota.

[BoxBuzz]

Cleveland Williams was known far and wide for his knowledge of physics and scientific knowledge. So whatever plaster of Paris experiment he devised would have been engineered in such a way that covered any and all important parameters. Indeed this would put an end to any speculation that this particular substance could be helpful as an offensive option within the Sweet Science. As time has gone on I have forgotten just what Scientific Journal published Dr William's methodology and results of this carefully monitored event. Would you refresh my memory?

[dempseyfire]

Dempsey's hands were wrapped inside the ring, there is photo evidence of this. There was no plaster of paris used.

[Collins2000]

At one stage it was supposed to have been an iron bolt that he had clenched in his glove and later dropped in the ring.

There was a photo of the aftermath of the bout showing said metal bolt on the ground in the ring. It was in one of the boxing mags in the 70's along with an article and a 'confession' by someone.

It looked remarkably like a half-smoked cigar to me but I suppose if you were of a gullible nature you could have seen it as a bolt.

[HomicideHenry]

Cleveland Williams was known far and wide for his knowledge of physics and scientific knowledge. So whatever plaster of Paris experiment he devised would have been engineered in such a way that covered any and all important parameters. Indeed this would put an end to any speculation that this particular substance could be helpful as an offensive option within the Sweet Science. As time has gone on I have forgotten just what Scientific Journal published Dr William's methodology and results of this carefully monitored event. Would you refresh my memory?

Boxing Illustrated conducted an experiment to test whether it was possible to use plaster of paris successfully under fighting conditions. The results were reported in the May 1964 issue of BI, pp 20-24, 66. Hugh Benbow and Perry Payne (manager and trainer of Cleveland Williams) used plaster of paris on Cleveland's hands and reenacted what Kearns said occurred in Dempsey's dressing room. After 35 minutes of toasting to reenact the 114-degree heat of Toledo that day, Cleveland Williams hit the heavy bag five times. Benbow examined the wraps and found that the plaster had cracked and crumbled. "This stuff." said Cleve, "wouldn't do anybody any good."

The Boxing Illustrated test proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the plaster of paris would not have held up after the first punch, it would have crumbled and left chunks in his mitts and every punch thereafter would have been quite painful and there is little doubt he would have broken his hands. The inventor of the product issued a statement as to the impossibility of using plaster of paris without breaking all the bones in the hands. Dempsey’s hands were not broken and he continued to punch with authority with both hands. This alone dispels the idea that Dempsey’s gloves were loaded with plaster of paris

[Collins2000]

Cleveland Williams was known far and wide for his knowledge of physics and scientific knowledge. So whatever plaster of Paris experiment he devised would have been engineered in such a way that covered any and all important parameters. Indeed this would put an end to any speculation that this particular substance could be helpful as an offensive option within the Sweet Science. As time has gone on I have forgotten just what Scientific Journal published Dr William's methodology and results of this carefully monitored event. Would you refresh my memory?

Boxing Illustrated conducted an experiment to test whether it was possible to use plaster of paris successfully under fighting conditions. The results were reported in the May 1964 issue of BI, pp 20-24, 66. Hugh Benbow and Perry Payne (manager and trainer of Cleveland Williams) used plaster of paris on Cleveland's hands and reenacted what Kearns said occurred in Dempsey's dressing room. After 35 minutes of toasting to reenact the 114-degree heat of Toledo that day, Cleveland Williams hit the heavy bag five times. Benbow examined the wraps and found that the plaster had cracked and crumbled. "This stuff." said Cleve, "wouldn't do anybody any good."

The Boxing Illustrated test proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the plaster of paris would not have held up after the first punch, it would have crumbled and left chunks in his mitts and every punch thereafter would have been quite painful and there is little doubt he would have broken his hands. The inventor of the product issued a statement as to the impossibility of using plaster of paris without breaking all the bones in the hands. Dempsey’s hands were not broken and he continued to punch with authority with both hands. This alone dispels the idea that Dempsey’s gloves were loaded with plaster of paris

Catch yourself on (as an Irish Traveller might say), Rufus. It was an iron bolt clasped in his glove as I mentioned above.

Also, if you want to see a movie that has a gypsy / bare-knuckle element you should download Snatch.

[HomicideHenry]

I dont believe in the bolt theory either. I believe it to have been a cigar. Though, it is a hell of a bold move Kearns made in betting 10,000 bucks that Dempsey would have knocked Willard out in the 1st round.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Cleveland Williams was known far and wide for his knowledge of physics and scientific knowledge. So whatever plaster of Paris experiment he devised would have been engineered in such a way that covered any and all important parameters. Indeed this would put an end to any speculation that this particular substance could be helpful as an offensive option within the Sweet Science. As time has gone on I have forgotten just what Scientific Journal published Dr William's methodology and results of this carefully monitored event. Would you refresh my memory?

Ummm, you are aware Williams was inducted into the experiment by researchers merely to simulate Dempsey's place, right? You give the impression you think he conducted it in his backyard...

[Djanders]

Maybe Jack had his lucky cigar in his glove.

[Collins2000]

Cleveland Williams was known far and wide for his knowledge of physics and scientific knowledge. So whatever plaster of Paris experiment he devised would have been engineered in such a way that covered any and all important parameters. Indeed this would put an end to any speculation that this particular substance could be helpful as an offensive option within the Sweet Science. As time has gone on I have forgotten just what Scientific Journal published Dr William's methodology and results of this carefully monitored event. Would you refresh my memory?

Ummm, you are aware Williams was inducted into the experiment by researchers merely to simulate Dempsey's place, right? You give the impression you think he conducted it in his backyard...

Was Bill Clinton contacted to supply a cigar to dispell the bolt vs cigar theory?

[Ezzard]

At one stage it was supposed to have been an iron bolt that he had clenched in his glove and later dropped in the ring.

There was a photo of the aftermath of the bout showing said metal bolt on the ground in the ring. It was in one of the boxing mags in the 70's along with an article and a 'confession' by someone.

It looked remarkably like a half-smoked cigar to me but I suppose if you were of a gullible nature you could have seen it as a bolt.

In a Harry Carpenter interview with Tyson, Harry claimed that Willard once showed him the bolt. He'd kept it for years as 'proof'.

I don't think any of it is true, but it's a good story.

[marchegiano007]

THERE WERE 2 MEN CAPABLE OF KO DEMPSEY AROUND HIS TIME. HARRY WILLS THE NUMBER ONE CONTENDER OF THE ERA AND THE TERRIFIC SAM LANGFORD. THOSE FIGHTS COULD HAD BEEN IN THE ODDS AS PICK EM. DEMPSEY COULD HAD HAD THE CHANCED IN THE FIRST 7 OR 8 ROUNDS TO KO BOTH LANGFORD AND WILLS BUT...... IF LANGFORD AND WILLS PAST THE 10 ROUND DEMPSEY COULD HAD BEEN KO IN BETWEEN THE 10 TO THE 15 ROUND. DEMPSEY GOT TIRED IN THE LATER ROUNDS THAT WAS THE REASON HE CHOSED NOT TO FIGHT MORE THAN 10 ROUNDS AGAINST TUNNEY. STRANGED CHAMPIONSHIP FIGHTS SCHEDULED FOR 10 ROUNDS. IT HURT DEMPSEY TOO AGAINST TUNNEY IF THOSE FIGHTS COULD HAD BEEN SCHEDULED FOR 15 ROUNDS DEMPSEY COULD HAD HAD A CHANCE TO KO TUNNEY OR EVEN TUNNEY TO TKO A TIRED DEMPSEY.

[dempseyfire]

Langford was far past his best by 1919 and losing to fighters Dempsey annihiliated.

[raylawpc]

THERE WERE 2 MEN CAPABLE OF KO DEMPSEY AROUND HIS TIME. HARRY WILLS THE NUMBER ONE CONTENDER OF THE ERA AND THE TERRIFIC SAM LANGFORD. THOSE FIGHTS COULD HAD BEEN IN THE ODDS AS PICK EM. DEMPSEY COULD HAD HAD THE CHANCED IN THE FIRST 7 OR 8 ROUNDS TO KO BOTH LANGFORD AND WILLS BUT...... IF LANGFORD AND WILLS PAST THE 10 ROUND DEMPSEY COULD HAD BEEN KO IN BETWEEN THE 10 TO THE 15 ROUND. DEMPSEY GOT TIRED IN THE LATER ROUNDS THAT WAS THE REASON HE CHOSED NOT TO FIGHT MORE THAN 10 ROUNDS AGAINST TUNNEY. STRANGED CHAMPIONSHIP FIGHTS SCHEDULED FOR 10 ROUNDS. IT HURT DEMPSEY TOO AGAINST TUNNEY IF THOSE FIGHTS COULD HAD BEEN SCHEDULED FOR 15 ROUNDS DEMPSEY COULD HAD HAD A CHANCE TO KO TUNNEY OR EVEN TUNNEY TO TKO A TIRED DEMPSEY.

That is NOT correct. Dempsey fought 10 rounds against Tunney because neither Pennsylvania nor Illinois permitted bouts of greater than 10-rounds in those days. When Rickard was trying to get the fight for NY, it was scheduled for 15-rounds.

Dempsey fought Tommy Gibbons at a fast clip for 15-rounds with any sign of being gassed. He and Bill Brennan were fighting at a fast clip until Jack stopped him in the 12th, and Jack gave no indication he was gassed.

[Djanders]

THERE WERE 2 MEN CAPABLE OF KO DEMPSEY AROUND HIS TIME. HARRY WILLS THE NUMBER ONE CONTENDER OF THE ERA AND THE TERRIFIC SAM LANGFORD. THOSE FIGHTS COULD HAD BEEN IN THE ODDS AS PICK EM. DEMPSEY COULD HAD HAD THE CHANCED IN THE FIRST 7 OR 8 ROUNDS TO KO BOTH LANGFORD AND WILLS BUT...... IF LANGFORD AND WILLS PAST THE 10 ROUND DEMPSEY COULD HAD BEEN KO IN BETWEEN THE 10 TO THE 15 ROUND. DEMPSEY GOT TIRED IN THE LATER ROUNDS THAT WAS THE REASON HE CHOSED NOT TO FIGHT MORE THAN 10 ROUNDS AGAINST TUNNEY. STRANGED CHAMPIONSHIP FIGHTS SCHEDULED FOR 10 ROUNDS. IT HURT DEMPSEY TOO AGAINST TUNNEY IF THOSE FIGHTS COULD HAD BEEN SCHEDULED FOR 15 ROUNDS DEMPSEY COULD HAD HAD A CHANCE TO KO TUNNEY OR EVEN TUNNEY TO TKO A TIRED DEMPSEY.

That is NOT correct. Dempsey fought 10 rounds against Tunney because neither Pennsylvania nor Illinois permitted bouts of greater than 10-rounds in those days. When Rickard was trying to get the fight for NY, it was scheduled for 15-rounds.

Dempsey fought Tommy Gibbons at a fast clip for 15-rounds with any sign of being gassed. He and Bill Brennan were fighting at a fast clip until Jack stopped him in the 12th, and Jack gave no indication he was gassed.

Good points, raylawpc! Also, Jack Dempsey's fight with Jack Sharkey, which took place between his two fights with Gene Tunney, was scheduled for 15 rounds.

[marchegiano007]

I READ SOMETHING DIFFERENT IN A ENGLISH BOXING ENCICLOPEDIA I BOUGHT IN 1987. IT SAYS DEMPSEY WANTED THE TUNNEY FIGHT SCHEDULED FOR 10 ROUNDS. STILL A SHAME THE WILLS FIGHT NEVERD HAPPENED. I THINK WILLS COULD HAD KO DEMPSEY IN THE LATER ROUNDS OR DEMPSEY EARLIER.

[raylawpc]

I READ SOMETHING DIFFERENT IN A ENGLISH BOXING ENCICLOPEDIA I BOUGHT IN 1987. IT SAYS DEMPSEY WANTED THE TUNNEY FIGHT SCHEDULED FOR 10 ROUNDS. STILL A SHAME THE WILLS FIGHT NEVERD HAPPENED. I THINK WILLS COULD HAD KO DEMPSEY IN THE LATER ROUNDS OR DEMPSEY EARLIER.

I've seen clippings of Wills in action. He was big and relatively slow. Big, slow guys were meat to Dempsey. I think Jack would have torn him up.

[Tantum]

I'm sure the illustrious SPORTS ILLUSTRATED tested every conceivable method of using plaster and/or other objects to simulate Dempsey's gloves.