Thomas Hearns vs. Paul Williams

[elmersalsa]

I thought both Hearns and Williams are 6'1?

Having seen both, I agree that Williams looks the taller, but they are both HUGE welterweights.

- Williams is 6-3 easily. It's all smoke and mirrors as they lop off vital stats to make him appear less intimidating since most are averse to risking a fight with him.

As far as Hearns KOing Williams, well, Williams has never even stumbled much less been hurt in the ring. He would be a natural 154-160 lber in Hearns day, not Hearn's best weight. Hearns had a sub .500% KO ration in fights between 154-160. Both his losses 160 where he never sees the end of the 3rd rd.

Like I mentioned, too many bandwagon fanboys confusing the legend of a fighter with real blood, sweat and natural attributes in a ring face off. This is a highly competitive matchup and dismissing Williams out of hand is as silly as dismissing Hearns as glass jawed.

Hearns would've blast him in any weight class. Especially at 154lbs, The Hitman was out of this world. Is not that Hearns is a legend and Williams not, but Williams has done nothing to indicate that he's a great champion like Tommy.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Hearns would've blast him in any weight class. Especially at 154lbs, The Hitman was out of this world. Is not that Hearns is a legend and Williams not, but Williams has done nothing to indicate that he's a great champion like Tommy.

- Tommy is gonna blast out a huge middleweight who's never been buzzed with Tommy's 50% KO ration at the weight, eh?

Whatever floats your skirt. Williams has Marg ducking the rematch, Shane ducking from day one, Oscar ducking, Forrest, Zabby, Cotto, even Pavlik accused of ducking him. So, what does he do?

Why he signed to fight the most ducked fighter of his generation, Winky. Great enough for me.

[Grimm]

"Every fighter has his off nights.

He proved himself with the rematch." - Grimm

Yes, I think that's a fair statement. Still, Williams is going to have to do a lot more in his career before this match-up secures validity...

[elmersalsa]

Hearns would've blast him in any weight class. Especially at 154lbs, The Hitman was out of this world. Is not that Hearns is a legend and Williams not, but Williams has done nothing to indicate that he's a great champion like Tommy.

- Tommy is gonna blast out a huge middleweight who's never been buzzed with Tommy's 50% KO ration at the weight, eh?

Whatever floats your skirt. Williams has Marg ducking the rematch, Shane ducking from day one, Oscar ducking, Forrest, Zabby, Cotto, even Pavlik accused of ducking him. So, what does he do?

Why he signed to fight the most ducked fighter of his generation, Winky. Great enough for me.

Big deal, he's just lucky that he's not in Tommy's era...I see Williams get blasted by Tommy like Fred Hutchings was massacred in Saginaw, MI

[Adamj1987]

Hearns is the legend he had wins over duran and leonard (IMO) williams has no-one to compare to

[elmersalsa]

The MAIN PROBLEM is that Williams is not even in Tommy's league...Heck, he is not even in Tommy's class.

All these fighters today would have not sign the fight with Hearns.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

The MAIN PROBLEM is that Williams is not even in Tommy's league...Heck, he is not even in Tommy's class.

- Seems making smiley faces much more your expertise than boxing analysis.

As I mentioned, some of you have confused the legend of a fighter with the actual matchup in the ring. I expect for you to provide a couple of class big men that Hearns beat. Big men being the operative word de jour. Don't want to hear Duran who was a big name, not a big man.

Let's see if you got something more than soiled shorts covering up your oversized opinions. Seems to be a major threat to your reality to consider that Williams is a huge fighter with some great natural attributes who would be a handful for anyone in his natural middleweight class.

[The Great John L]

All of these guys were pretty good, although maybe you aren't familiar with them.

Sutherland
Hutchings
Shuler
Andries
Roldan
Kinchen
Hill

There are quite a few more as well, but this is a pretty good start.

[dempseyfire]

WHo the hell has Williams beat at 160?

He might be tall but the very fact that he could make 147 a year ago means he's not a 'huge' middleweight, hell he's not even a natural middleweight. I guess Celestino Caballero is now bigger than Dick Tiger . . ..

[Collins2000]

All of these guys were pretty good, although maybe you aren't familiar with them.

Sutherland
Hutchings
Shuler
Andries
Roldan
Kinchen
Hill

There are quite a few more as well, but this is a pretty good start.

Cue to BRR (son of terap) quickly looking them up on boxrec, not really understanding what he is seeing, then rushing back to tell us they were all stiffs.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

All of these guys were pretty good, although maybe you aren't familiar with them.

Sutherland
Hutchings
Shuler
Andries
Roldan
Kinchen
Hill

There are quite a few more as well, but this is a pretty good start.

- Heh, heh, they change your diapers and you drop the same content.

There's a reason why all but Hill ain't well known to the boxing public. Williams is both bigger then them and better than pretty good. It really does challenge your manhood that Williams is not only bigger than Tommy, but more durable. Williams could never even make weight to let little Leonard TKO him.

Hill an excellent win, but I never saw the fight, and being a MD, I'll refrain from passing true judgment. Just the notion that Williams could be at least as competitive as Hill twists your shorts into a tourniquet knot.

Classic....... 8)

[dempseyfire]

Williams weighed 145 last June you dope, what do you mean Williams could never make the welter limit as Hearns did vs Leonard???

Being tall and long doesn't mean bigger, if you understood the basics of size and physics. I guess Paul Williams is bigger than 5'10 Tyson too, eh?

You are clearly here to be outrageous, per usual, but I bite the bullet b/c these comments are too asinine not to respond to. Hope you're having fun though. Some wierd thrill it must be having everyone say you're wrong.

This world is full of strange people.

[Grimm]

Williams weighed 145 last June you dope, what do you mean Williams could never make the welter limit as Hearns did vs Leonard???

Being tall and long doesn't mean bigger, if you understood the basics of size and physics. I guess Paul Williams is bigger than 5'10 Tyson too, eh?

You are clearly here to be outrageous, per usual, but I bite the bullet b/c these comments are too asinine not to respond to. Hope you're having fun though. Some wierd thrill it must be having everyone say you're wrong.

This world is full of strange people.

I thought he was reffering to same day weigh in vs. next day weigh in.

[The Great John L]

All of these guys were pretty good, although maybe you aren't familiar with them.

Sutherland
Hutchings
Shuler
Andries
Roldan
Kinchen
Hill

There are quite a few more as well, but this is a pretty good start.

- Heh, heh, they change your diapers and you drop the same content.

There's a reason why all but Hill ain't well known to the boxing public. Williams is both bigger then them and better than pretty good. It really does challenge your manhood that Williams is not only bigger than Tommy, but more durable. Williams could never even make weight to let little Leonard TKO him.

Hill an excellent win, but I never saw the fight, and being a MD, I'll refrain from passing true judgment. Just the notion that Williams could be at least as competitive as Hill twists your shorts into a tourniquet knot.

Classic....... 8)

Boxing fans know these guys very well, that's why I figured you weren't familiar with them and I glad you confirmed that for us.

You didn't see the Hearns-Hill fight? Most likely because you hadn't been born yet, which might explain the fixation with diapers.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I thought he was reffering to same day weigh in vs. next day weigh in.

- Indeed, it was self evident to all but the l'il ones littering the forum with all their toys.

Have no problems with anyone picking Hearns over Williams. It's l'il ones claiming Williams wouldn't be well armed and in the hunt.

[elmersalsa]

The MAIN PROBLEM is that Williams is not even in Tommy's league...Heck, he is not even in Tommy's class.

- Seems making smiley faces much more your expertise than boxing analysis.

As I mentioned, some of you have confused the legend of a fighter with the actual matchup in the ring. I expect for you to provide a couple of class big men that Hearns beat. Big men being the operative word de jour. Don't want to hear Duran who was a big name, not a big man.

Let's see if you got something more than soiled shorts covering up your oversized opinions. Seems to be a major threat to your reality to consider that Williams is a huge fighter with some great natural attributes who would be a handful for anyone in his natural middleweight class.

I think you are lying to yourself, man...Get a grip. Hearns has gone all the way to cruiserweight and stopped bigger guys than he. I don't need to tell you names...Just look at his record.

You are trying to compare a legitimate and extrordinary all-time great in Hearns vs a GOOFY GOOFY fighter like Williams. Gimmie a break.

If you say that the great Ike Williams would have beaten Hearns, then, that is another story. It could happen. But Paul Williams?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I think you are lying to yourself, man...Get a grip. Hearns has gone all the way to cruiserweight and stopped bigger guys than he. I don't need to tell you names...Just look at his record.

You are trying to compare a legitimate and extrordinary all-time great in Hearns vs a GOOFY GOOFY fighter like Williams. Gimmie a break.

If you say that the great Ike Williams would have beaten Hearns, then, that is another story. It could happen. But Paul Williams?

- Elmer, if you got anything left that ain't turned to jello left to grip, I suggest you grab it before it falls off.

First off, I didn't start the comparison, the thread starter did. I thought it was a fair point of discussion, but it strikes me that there are two types that respond to me:

1. Flagging manhood. All they have left is distant cloudy memories of grand fighters in their testosterone fueled youth that they shout to the heavens about as ol' gits.

2. Comprehension challenged, duhhhh.

I never stated Williams would have beaten Hearns, I stated that Williams would make a strong fight and could beat Hearns. Get your 2nd grade English teacher to 'splain it in English that you can understand. If Iran Barkley can beat Hearns twice, I suspect a bigger framed fella with superior established credentials could also have a fair chance to beat Hearns.

Thankfully, such a great fight will never be wasted you. You'll just have to make do complaining about every other fight today.

[AndreWardFan2006]

I'm surprised so many people would pick Hearns over Williams...He probably has the better chance, but most people on this topic believe Hearns would cream Williams. Maybe the Williams today would lose a decision, maybe even late round stoppage. But take Paul in a few years and it has to be a different story.

[Ezzard]

Weighs in days does fudge the issue a bit but Williams' durability and freak geentics are all he brings to the debate. And lets not forget how Cuevas was considered to be iron-jawed before he met Tommy. Hearns' skill level was absolutely top drawer. And before meeting Hagler his durability was never a question. Williams has never been past the 12th so we're making a leap of faith here.

The argument that Hearns will struggle because he's up against someone taller is cluching at straws.

If The Hit Man shows up it's an early to mid round KO. If The Motor City Cobra shows then it's a convincing points win.

The only credible/possible argument is that someone and deconstruct the 2 styles and point out a boxing weakness that the other will naturally exploit. Nobody ever outboxed Hearns in the ring. Even Ray Leonard would admit to that...

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Weighs in days does fudge the issue a bit but Williams' durability and freak geentics are all he brings to the debate. And lets not forget how Cuevas was considered to be iron-jawed before he met Tommy. Hearns' skill level was absolutely top drawer. And before meeting Hagler his durability was never a question. Williams has never been past the 12th so we're making a leap of faith here.

- Oh come now, the only credible statement you made was that Tommy's skill level was absolutely top drawer.

There is no fudging the size issue. Williams the bigger man by a division. Cuevas was considered to be a wide open bone crunching slugger, not Iron Man. His debut title win on the heels of a loss to Andy price against Espada who accounts for 3 of his 12 straight title wins of which only Shields can take him the distance. Sure he got some chin checks, but not against the best fighters of the era, Benitez, Bruce Curry, Palamino, and a few more names.

Before meeting Hagler, Tommy's durability had been questioned against Leonard, clearly. Who cares if Williams has never been past the 12th, his activity rate and stamina over 12 is as top shelf as Tommy's skill levels. Williams does lack Tommy's ama background and brilliant development of Stewart, so what? He stood up late to "loaded" punches by the widely accused Margo and has proven himself in late rounds in spite of still being in a developmental state, a late bloomer.

Hearns never made it to 12 until his Shields defense, and never made it to 15 until his challenge to Benitez who only threw a half dozen punches in that fight. Not exactly a testament to 15 rd durability with the 2 prior KO losses. Tommy is 1-1 in bouts going past 12, so please, more "sense" and less "non" preceeding it.

Like I say, no problems with anyone picking a Hearns win. I'll call you on the carpet when you blithely dismiss Williams like he's a no hoper. No doubt your dear ol' daddies were dismissing Tommy in a similar vein back when, so the apples don't fall very far from the the ol' tree.

[Ezzard]

...Which is one more credible statement than you've manged in all of your posts combined...

I'm not sure that your appraisal on Cuevas fits with the wisdom of the time. Looking back is different to the perception going into the fight. You may be looking back on Williams with a different slant too.

In terms of weight are we then putting this fight at 154? I think the parameters have changed.

Tommy in a 6 round fight might just be the best at 147 and 154. That's how good he was. The Robinsons and Leonards would get him in a 15 round championship fight, maybe a Gavilan, a Napoles and a Griffith too...

At 154 I've always fancied McCallum would take Tommy. BUT Williams is not at this level as evidenced by the need to keep saying the M word as if it's proof of something.

Williams is a good fighter who would pose some problems but to think he would win is based on nothing other than the kind of partisanship you accuse everyone else of.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

At 154 I've always fancied McCallum would take Tommy. BUT Williams is not at this level as evidenced by the need to keep saying the M word as if it's proof of something.

- What you fancy matters for naught when you don't understand the context of history.

Mac was just short of his 28th birthday when he goes 15 against Sean Mannion for his title. Nobody was bigging him up as some kind of new HOF lock and horrific new monster on the block. Williams is just short of his own 28th going against the most widely ducked fighter of his era and a master HOF boxer, The Winkster. Everyone else is ducking him.

It's Williams with the more established credentials at the age, not Mac, so don't fancify such sillyness to wrap the foul odour you're passing along.

Yeah, in his short career, Williams has yet to prove he is of the same class as Mac or Tommy in their long careers, so why create these threads if that's your sole criteria? Iran Barkley never close to the class of Tommy, so someone with pull needs to delete those Barkley losses from Tommy's record.

[Counter-puncher]

There is no fudging the size issue. Williams the bigger man by a division. .

LRR- personally, my friend, I would wait until Williams had been knocking out people proven at 175lbs, before suggesting Williams is the bigger man by a division

until then we can assume its a moot point, can't we, seeing as Williams' career has only carried him as far north as 160lbs to this point 8)

[Collins2000]

At 154 I've always fancied McCallum would take Tommy. BUT Williams is not at this level as evidenced by the need to keep saying the M word as if it's proof of something.

- What you fancy matters for naught when you don't understand the context of history.

Mac was just short of his 28th birthday when he goes 15 against Sean Mannion for his title. Nobody was bigging him up as some kind of new HOF lock and horrific new monster on the block. Williams is just short of his own 28th going against the most widely ducked fighter of his era and a master HOF boxer, The Winkster. Everyone else is ducking him.

It's Williams with the more established credentials at the age, not Mac, so don't fancify such sillyness to wrap the foul odour you're passing along.

Yeah, in his short career, Williams has yet to prove he is of the same class as Mac or Tommy in their long careers, so why create these threads if that's your sole criteria? Iran Barkley never close to the class of Tommy, so someone with pull needs to delete those Barkley losses from Tommy's record.

Mac and The Winkster. Leon of Neon. And Evan H. Field.

Like I said, people who give pet names to boxers are the strangest fekkwits of all.

[BoxBuzz]

Looks like this is quite the hotly debated hypothetical.

Looks like a 50/50 situation to me.

50% of Williams ends up on the deck, The other 50% is sent into orbit.