MUHAMMAD ALI/CASSIUS CLAY - Facts, Fantasy & Fiction

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Joe Frazier's gonna come out smokin'
and I ain't gonna be jokin',,," Ali " - Zelley

^^^A genius at work. Nursery school rhymes which marvel the masses. Yawn. Don't get me wrong --- Ali had a rapier wit, & you can laugh at some of his antics, even in spite of yourself at times, but the way people positively fawn over his kindergarten-quality turns-of-phrase is a more riotous laugh than anything Ali produced, IMO.

"...He was a poet, had a kind of poetic energy..." - James Earl Jones.

Said poetic energy in motion...

"He wanted to go to Heaven, so I took him in seven." - Muhammad Ali.

[Zelley]

Go back to the first Ali - Frazier fights and even those that didn't watch boxing watched the big fight on TV in living rooms, bars
and in University lounges scattered around the globe.

And you can bet, the majority were cheering on "gaseous Cassius"!

When the folks flocked to watch the 1972 Ali - Chuvalo fight
in Vancouver, the electricity in the air was not a result of
Canada's own George Chuvalo having a bad hair day but the wait in
anticipation to see Muhammed Ali rock the world with flashing fists
and razzle dazzle footwork and begin his long journey home to the title
that was stolen in the name of politics and he rocked on
despite a few setbacks along the way like Ken Norton :>

[Goodnight, Irene]

I can see the stars swirling in your eyes. You seem awash with nostalgia. I guess living through the Ali era, much like not living through it, has its inevitable drawbacks, as well.

[Zelley]

I can see the stars swirling in your eyes. You seem awash with nostalgia. I guess living through the Ali era, much like not living through it, has its inevitable drawbacks, as well.

I'm sure that those of us that boxed, some of us had a few stars swirling around, but it wasn't connected to Ali. My best guess is we were on the receiving end of a well timed combination.

Concerning nostalgia, I guess being on a "boxers of the past"
site results in a few rounds of starry eyes and foggy memories.
:> searching for the light beyond the fog. :idea:

I guess we could switch the focus of the thread to the likes of
Tony Mundine, Lionel Rose, Charkey Ramon, Paul Ferreri & Jeff Harding

[Ambling Alp]

I know that the Ali-haters don't like to talk about facts when it comes to Ali, but thought I would try anyway:

-Ali would have been taking the easy way out if he had gone to Vietnam. Remember he wasn't actually going to be in combat. He would just be sparring and fighting exhibitions for the troops.
Btw, that's what Joe Louis, Ray Robinson etc did in World War II. They weren't in combat. Btw, Jack Dempsey could have fought in world War I but didn't.

-He originally was given a draft status that made ineligible for the military. When he became a more controversial figure and spoke out against the war, his draft status was changed. If he was just an average citizen, he never would have been drafted.

-By refusing to go, he gave up a lot. He was 25 years old and in his athletic prime. He gave up possibly the best 3 years of his career. For all he knew, he would never fight again.

-He also gave up a lot of potential $. Several million in fact.

-He risked prison time as well.

He took an ethical stand and gave up a lot by not going. This is another reason why some people do admire him a lot. Going to Vietnam would have been the easy way out and is what most people would have done in his situation.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I know that the Ali-haters don't like to talk about facts when it comes to Ali, but thought I would try anyway:

-Ali would have been taking the easy way out if he had gone to Vietnam. Remember he wasn't actually going to be in combat. He would just be sparring and fighting exhibitions for the troops.
Btw, that's what Joe Louis, Ray Robinson etc did in World War II. They weren't in combat. Btw, Jack Dempsey could have fought in world War I but didn't.

- I happen to admire much of Ali, however his admirers are consistent in getting things wrong on top of being "Dempsey haters" it would appear.

Joe and Ray were flying IN WAR ZONES. Benny Goodman never saw combat and never made it out. Ali would have seen cush duty compared to Ray and Joe, so there is no equivalency whatsoever.

But you are correct in that Ali rightly or wrongly made a brave stand and he did prevail legally, not that I respect the law much other than the power it holds over us.

As far as Dempsey goes, maybe, he "could have fought" in WW1, but not likely since the war was over by the time the Americans got into it. Very few fought and Dempsey like Ali prevailed legally. There was also no threat to this country unlike WW2 and the Vietnam War. Wars are seldom comparable other than people are killed by directions of big shots who call the shots.

At any rate, in his mid 40s Jack volunteered for Coast Guard duty after Pearl Harbor and requested and was granted a transfer to the war theater in the Pacific. Doubt he saw any or much action, but just traveling in a war zone of this magnitude and dealing with ongoing privations is grueling stuff.

I have no doubt Ali would have done the same had he perceived the same threat.

[Zelley]

When starting this thread, based on the past debates concerning Ali,
I didn't think there would be a calm cool objective analysis of
Ali the boxing, but heated discussion. Why am I not surprised?

I guess as Ambling Alp points out:
"...the Ali-haters don't like to talk about facts..."

It would be interesting to know how many of those
that are fixated on Ali & the Vietnam War have taken the time
to visit the memorial wall and pay a tribute to those lost
and those remaining veterans.

A river of tears, teardrop by lonely teardrop can never wash
away the pain and sorrow of those that the fallen have left behind.
But we can remember the names on the wall! - Z.

For those that refused to go, and for the returning veterans
that joined in the protest to end the war, we can recognize them
for a different type of bravery.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I can see the stars swirling in your eyes. You seem awash with nostalgia. I guess living through the Ali era, much like not living through it, has its inevitable drawbacks, as well.

I'm sure that those of us that boxed, some of us had a few stars swirling around, but it wasn't connected to Ali. My best guess is we were on the receiving end of a well timed combination.

Concerning nostalgia, I guess being on a "boxers of the past"
site results in a few rounds of starry eyes and foggy memories.
:> searching for the light beyond the fog. :idea:

I guess we could switch the focus of the thread to the likes of
Tony Mundine, Lionel Rose, Charkey Ramon, Paul Ferreri & Jeff Harding

I don't think my nationality mandates me being a fan of certain fighters. That's a rather limited perception. Australia ain't Puerto Rico, after all.

[Zelley]

I can see the stars swirling in your eyes. You seem awash with nostalgia. I guess living through the Ali era, much like not living through it, has its inevitable drawbacks, as well.

Concerning nostalgia, I guess being on a "boxers of the past"
site results in a few rounds of starry eyes and foggy memories.
:> searching for the light beyond the fog. :idea:
I guess we could switch the focus of the thread to the likes of
Tony Mundine, Lionel Rose, Charkey Ramon, Paul Ferreri & Jeff Harding

I don't think my nationality mandates me being a fan of certain fighters. That's a rather limited perception. Australia ain't Puerto Rico, after all.

That goes for most of us non-USA Ali supporters

However, if we move beyond the personal jabs, we can take a look
at Ali between 1970 and 1973 and compare him to the others that fought
back then such as Bob Foster, Jose Napoles, Roberto Duran and Eder Jofre.
Or some of the other heavyweights Jimmy Ellis, Buster Mathis, and
Joe Bugner.

Of the ones mentioned, it appears only Duran and Jofre are top candidates
for the top ten fighters of all time. Both Foster and Napoles would
rank highly in the best of the light heavyweights (Foster) and welterweight
(Napoles).

Of interest, Lionel Rose the slick Australian that briefly held the
bantamweight title was still fighting with bouts against the likes of
Fred Wicks and Jeff White in the land down under in places such as
Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne. But still the biggest box office
ex-champion was Muhammed Ali.

[Zelley]

I can see the stars swirling in your eyes. You seem awash with nostalgia. I guess living through the Ali era, much like not living through it, has its inevitable drawbacks, as well.

Concerning nostalgia, I guess being on a "boxers of the past"
site results in a few rounds of starry eyes and foggy memories.
:> searching for the light beyond the fog. :idea:
I guess we could switch the focus of the thread to the likes of
Tony Mundine, Lionel Rose, Charkey Ramon, Paul Ferreri & Jeff Harding

I don't think my nationality mandates me being a fan of certain fighters. That's a rather limited perception. Australia ain't Puerto Rico, after all.

That goes for most of us non-USA Ali supporters

However, if we move beyond the personal jabs, we can take a look
at Ali between 1970 and 1973 and compare him to the others that fought
back then such as Bob Foster, Jose Napoles, Roberto Duran and Eder Jofre.
Or some of the other heavyweights Jimmy Ellis, Buster Mathis, and
Joe Bugner.

Of the ones mentioned, it appears only Duran and Jofre are top candidates
for the top ten fighters of all time. Both Foster and Napoles would
rank highly in the best of the light heavyweights (Foster) and welterweight
(Napoles).

Of interest, Lionel Rose the slick Australian that briefly held the
bantamweight title was still fighting with bouts against the likes of
Fred Wicks and Jeff White in the land down under in places such as
Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne. But still the biggest box office
ex-champion was Muhammad Ali.

[jaclem2]

..regardless of how we feel about certain issues, i think we should all agree that zelley backs up his ideas very well and his use of the language is excellent..

[Zelley]

..regardless of how we feel about certain issues, i think we should all agree that zelley backs up his ideas very well and his use of the language is excellent..

jacklem2, you should be a boxing coach, you got class

[elmersalsa]

If I were called a "person" in my own country, I wouldn't fight for that country either. That is what Ali did, regardless of religion

[Zelley]

If I were called a "Jungle Bunny" in my own country, I wouldn't fight for that country either. That is what Ali did, regardless of religion

Ali didn't throw his Olympic Gold Medal into the river for a lark.

Then there was the story told by Jersey Joe Walcott when he was refereeing
and Floyd Patterson was boxing. It seems Floyd and Jersey Joe couldn't stay at some four star hotel, but were forced to find digs on the poor side of time.

I wonder if Walcott & Patterson would have lined up for the killing fields and swaps of
Vietnam in the name of cold war politics with no clear victory strategy. Or would
they sing an old Phil Ochs tune "I Ain't Marching Anymore"

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ahhh, to have your cake, eat it too, & become a hero for it. Lots of sacrifice & courage under fire, but, boy, oh, boy, how sweet it is to have a life-long ticket to hear the praise of the PC masses.

[observer1]

I know that the Ali-haters don't like to talk about facts when it comes to Ali, but thought I would try anyway:

-Ali would have been taking the easy way out if he had gone to Vietnam. Remember he wasn't actually going to be in combat. He would just be sparring and fighting exhibitions for the troops.
Btw, that's what Joe Louis, Ray Robinson etc did in World War II. They weren't in combat. Btw, Jack Dempsey could have fought in world War I but didn't.

-He originally was given a draft status that made ineligible for the military. When he became a more controversial figure and spoke out against the war, his draft status was changed. If he was just an average citizen, he never would have been drafted.

-By refusing to go, he gave up a lot. He was 25 years old and in his athletic prime. He gave up possibly the best 3 years of his career. For all he knew, he would never fight again.

-He also gave up a lot of potential $. Several million in fact.

-He risked prison time as well.

He took an ethical stand and gave up a lot by not going. This is another reason why some people do admire him a lot. Going to Vietnam would have been the easy way out and is what most people would have done in his situation.

Good post mate

[Zelley]

THE BROKEN JAW - ALI ON THE ROPES - 1973

For many, 1972 was just another year where Ali would march to victory in his
journey to regain the title. As in the past, more victories were recorded
with stoppages of Floyd Patterson and Bob Foster. Good old Ali even gave a
large group of boxers an opportunity to earn a few bucks and be a footnote in boxing history
with the series of exhibitions that began in 1971. Some of those,in 1972, were
Alonzo Johnson, and Terry Daniels.

Then in 1973, it appeared that the ride was over after ALI faced the unorthodox Ken Norton.
During the shocking fight Ali was on the receiving end of a jaw breaking punch and the wromg
end of the decision. But, the mission to regain the title would continue with victories over
Norton and one Judi Lubbers who had previously lost to Joe Bugner in
a European title fight. One thing, however, was very clear - the ALI of the Sixties
was just a faded memory - lost and gone: - the flashy footwork and blazing fists.
- from flashdance to the waltz - it was a new type of dance in the squared circle for ALI,
but the music played on :?? :idea:

[Zelley]

THE BROKEN JAW - ALI ON THE ROPES - 1973

For many, 1972 was just another year where Ali would march to victory in his
journey to regain the title. As in the past, more victories were recorded
with stoppages of Floyd Patterson and Bob Foster. Good old Ali even gave a
large group of boxers an opportunity to earn a few bucks and be a footnote in boxing history
with the series of exhibitions that began in 1971. Some of those,in 1972, were
Alonzo Johnson, and Terry Daniels.

Then in 1973, it appeared that the ride was over after ALI faced the unorthodox Ken Norton.
During the shocking fight Ali was on the receiving end of a jaw breaking punch and the wromg
end of the decision. But, the mission to regain the title would continue with victories over
Norton and one Judi Lubbers who had previously lost to Joe Bugner in
a European title fight. One thing, however, was very clear - the ALI of the Sixties
was just a faded memory - lost and gone: - the flashy footwork and blazing fists.
- from flashdance to the waltz - it was a new type of dance in the squared circle for ALI,
but the music played on :?? :idea:

[Zelley]

ALI vs SPINKS

To many, the Spinks victory over Ali was a shock and upset, but to some
who could see the writing on the wall it was neither a great shock or
a significant upset.

Between these two extremes there is an obvious truth.

Starting with the George Chuvalo bout in 1972, there was a significant difference
in Ali the boxer. No longer was he the fleet footed heavyweight that moved like a featherweight,
but with Chuvalo he moved to the ropes and allowed the aging Chuvalo to pound away.
One could only guess what would happen in the future if he allowed a younger warrior
to play this game of rope-a-dope.

As the years drifted away, the day of reckoning was here with the Ali-Spinks fight.
Some fans would likely not think the rope-a-dope would be the cause of Ali being on
the losing end of the decision. Spinks was no George Chuvalo and his fighting style was not that of a stand-up puncher like George Foreman.

Like a James J Braddock of many years ago, the golden key to unlock the door to the heavyweight title was fighting the right fight with the necessary strategy to take advantage of the
weaknesses of the champion.

For some opponents, and due to Ali's reduced foot speed, the rope-a-dope was a little bit
of all right, but when Ali used the ropes, there was only one dope, and his name didn't
begin with Leon. SPINKS easily won the first several rounds, and matched Ali punch for punch
in most of the other rounds. But it was the rope-a-dope and the first three rounds that would
make all of the difference in what some called a shocking upset . No real shock, no real upset
to Spinks and the planning team.

The lesson: Any boxer can be defeated, it happened to many of the top champions during their glory days like Sugar Ray Robinson as a middleweight and Roberto Duran in the great "no mas"
controversy. But to win against the greats, the key is the perfect plan with the necessary
execution. With the ALI - SPINKS bout, Ali was just another boxing great that fell
on his sword. But, there would be yet another day for ALI when the dark clouds faded away
there was another rainbow and sunshine ahead on the ongoing and what appeared to be the
never ending MUHAMMAD (Cassius Clay) ALI 'soap opera' :> "eternity road"

[Goodnight, Irene]

More cushioning for Ali's completely unforeseen & unprecedented fall from grace.

Let's see how many ringside reporters, fight-writers & analysts you can come up with who foretold Spinks besting Ali, Zelley. YouR post mentions, "some" who were not surprised at the outcome.

Now, let's have some names...

[Zelley]

More cushioning for Ali's completely unforeseen & unprecedented fall from grace.

Let's see how many ringside reporters, fight-writers & analysts you can come up with who foretold Spinks besting Ali, Zelley. YouR post mentions, "some" who were not surprised at the outcome.

Now, let's have some names...

Writing on the wall or Bring out the cushions?!?

An interesting article in the May 1975 issue of
"WORLD BOXING" was titled "AFTER ALI WHAT?"

An interesting quote:

"For the past dozen years professional boxing in the United States has been summed up in two words
-Muhammad Ali.
One wonders what will happen to the sport when this living legend can no longer carry it on his back."

An important question is what does "when" mean.

[Expug]

Ali lost to Spinks.
Hell, he got out hustled. No big deal. It happens and it happens to guys who get older and arent big punchers.
He squared it in the rematch.
That Feb night in 1978 I had just one a Chicago Golden Gloves match. There was a buzz around St Andrews gym in Chicago that Ali lost to Spinks.
For the most part , trainers , other fighters glovin up waiting to fight, fans etc, the reaction was , oh well, hes gettin on in years and slowing up. They will fight again and Ali will win it.
Nobody in boxing I think figured someone was gonna walk in and knockout Muhamad, but I think people figured he could be outworked. Its what happened with Leon.

[Zelley]

Ali lost to Spinks.
Hell, he got out hustled. No big deal. It happens and it happens to guys who get older and arent big punchers.
He squared it in the rematch.
That Feb night in 1978 I had just one a Chicago Golden Gloves match. There was a buzz around St Andrews gym in Chicago that Ali lost to Spinks.
For the most part , trainers , other fighters glovin up waiting to fight, fans etc, the reaction was , oh well, hes gettin on in years and slowing up. They will fight again and Ali will win it.
Nobody in boxing I think figured someone was gonna walk in and knockout Muhamad, but I think people figured he could be outworked. Its what happened with Leon.

Good points! I agree that Ali losing to Spinks was no big deal as the writing was on the wall.

Congratulations re Chicago Golden Gloves, Chicago was the birth place of all Golden Gloves{ action.

[Goodnight, Irene]

One reply, but no names, thus far.

I await further response with baited breath...

[Jan]

Could we please sum up which of Alis wins were disputed or even just wrong?

What about these ones ( for example) :
Doug Jones
KEn Norton 3

Ali himself said he lost to Norton, but on the other hand he stated, he won the first fight against frazier.