It could of happened - Floyd Patterson vs Ray Robinson

[Robinson]

If this fight happened as it was being discussed. Who do you think
wins it and how.

It was proposed I think for 1958-59.

[Goodnight, Irene]

It's a shocking mismatch, if that's the timeframe we're talking. Patterson showed as early as 1956 that he possessed the capability to deal with an all-time great Light-Heavyweight who was less severely past it than was a 1958-59 natural Welterweight who'd never fought above Light-Heavy, & then, only once. Patterson had only improved in the two or three years following his win over Moore, to boot.

Robinson was much smaller than Moore, further removed from his prime (both in terms of weight & age), & would've been thoroughly demolished by a Patterson at --- or very near to --- the absolute peak of his powers.

I'm inclined to think if Patterson shows the same hell-for-leather inclination he did in his rematch with Johansson, Robinson doesn't see the third round.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

It's a shocking mismatch, if that's the timeframe we're talking. Patterson showed as early as 1956 that he possessed the capability to deal with an all-time great Light-Heavyweight who was less severely past it than was a 1958-59 natural Welterweight who'd never fought above Light-Heavy, & then, only once. Patterson had only improved in the two or three years following his win over Moore, to boot.

Robinson was much smaller than Moore, further removed from his prime (both in terms of weight & age), & would've been thoroughly demolished by a Patterson at --- or very near to --- the absolute peak of his powers.

I'm inclined to think if Patterson shows the same hell-for-leather inclination he did in his rematch with Johansson, Robinson doesn't see the third round.

- Let us not forget that it's styles and circumstances that make great fights and great upsets.

Floyd's chin had not yet been exposed and he was able to swarm Arch with blinding speed and reckless youth before he could make adjustments. Ray was past his best, but the showstopper left hook he flashed on the granite Fullmer would be plenty enough to stop Floyd in his tracks.

Obviously, odds favor Floyd, but holding the Maxim loss against Robby is bit like saying anyone could KO Big George because Ali put him down for a favorable count. As noted, this was late in Ray's career, and he was probably getting near or better money for easier fare in the middle division, thus a lack of incentive to risk a beating in the risk/reward calculations the savvy Robby used to plot his career.

[Goodnight, Irene]

It's perfectly legitimate to bring up Robinson's loss to Maxim. That was his heighest foray in weight, & we're talking about a hypoethetical fight which sees him climb even higher. Makes more sense to discuss him as a Light-Heavy than anything he did as a Middle. Patterson, again, improved in the two years since he beat Moore. He was good enough to take out one of the best Light-Heavyweights ever in 1956, & I don't see anything which prevents him from doing likewise with a washed-up Welter or Middleweight.

I highly doubt the left hook which levelled the iron-jaws Fullmer stops Patterson in his tracks. There is a school of thought out there that Patterson's allegedly fragile whiskers were due, at least in part, due to his too-small-for-Heavyweight frame. I don't think his whiskers, or much of anything else, get a serious test against a shockingly shop-worn 1958-59 iteration of Robinson.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

It's perfectly legitimate to bring up Robinson's loss to Maxim. That was his heighest foray in weight, & we're talking about a hypoethetical fight which sees him climb even higher. Makes more sense to discuss him as a Light-Heavy than anything he did as a Middle. Patterson, again, improved in the two years since he beat Moore. He was good enough to take out one of the best Light-Heavyweights ever in 1956, & I don't see anything which prevents him from doing likewise with a washed-up Welter or Middleweight.

I highly doubt the left hook which levelled the iron-jaws Fullmer stops Patterson in his tracks. There is a school of thought out there that Patterson's allegedly fragile whiskers were due, at least in part, due to his too-small-for-Heavyweight frame. I don't think his whiskers, or much of anything else, get a serious test against a shockingly shop-worn 1958-59 iteration of Robinson.

- A faded Maxim beat Floyd, or did you forget that one?

Robby was easily outpointing the champ version of Maxim before the excessive heat got to him. I see no improvement in Floyd's game from the Moore fight until he has to resurrect his career post Liston. Even then he was skating on the shakiest legs I've seen in the division until Sanders taught Wlad how to do the German breakdance.

Floyd wasn't going near the best comp until he fights the mid 30ish Liston who was entering his last years near the top. Be interesting to see how the odds went in this fight. With hindsight as my guide, it'd be easy to put some on Robbo at good odds.

[TheGreatA]

Here's what Cus D'Amato had to say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i70vgJM0Qs
1:00

[dempseyfire]

How did they respectively vs Maxim really has no bearing on how this fight would play out, but I will say I think Floyd got shafted in the Maxim fight.


Indeed, this fight is a mismatch especially considering the time period. Robinson was struggling with the pressure of welterweight Basillo. Patterson would be way too much. Robinson while a very good hitter wasn't a one-punch KO artist at 160 despite the Fullmer anomaly.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Here's what Cus D'Amato had to say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i70vgJM0Qs
1:00

- Ol Cus was as cagey as Doc Kearns and as morally sainted as Mother Teresa looking after Ray Robinson he was.

Great clip, but lest we get carried away over undefeated Roy Harris in his first bout outside of Texas, here's the other side of the story and it's a great one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a57WGGlh ... re=channel

I was so inspired by the clip, that seconds into it I jumped up to repeat 25 yr old Roy's weightlifting stunt since I have just put the exact same set up outside my back porch for some spontaneous light toning. I'm not a "weightlifter" in that I've never had any kind of steady routine, and I never do jerks such as what Roy was doing, just old fart steady as she goes routines in the winter months primarily.

A disclaimer, it took me a couple of 3 tries to do it, but then I'm not a natural heavy and I'm more than twice Roy's age in the video and, hey, just polished off a couple of tacos and a beer. I'll try it lefty next time and get back with yah.

Yeah, I think we could make a case for Cus ducking Ray with that video. It's a no win too much risk for the reward scenario, so thanks.

[Adamj1987]

wasnt a ray robinson - rocky marciano match talked about as well?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

wasnt a ray robinson - rocky marciano match talked about as well?

- Yeah, by Ray's promoter, not Ray.

Ray queered that deal post haste. Different kettle of fish entirely.

[HomicideHenry]

Even a prime Robinson, imo, would have had trouble with the 175 pound Patterson.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"...- A faded Maxim beat Floyd, or did you forget that one..." - BRR



Evidently, you're the one who missed it. If you've seen the fight --- as opposed to digging up the record books on BoxRec --- you'll know Maxim was the fortunate recepient of a terrible, terrible decision, but, since you haven't, you didn't realise the gun was loaded when you shot yourself in the foot.

A completely washed-up, natural Welterweight tackling a prime, top fifteen-twenty all-time Heavyweight is a mismatch. I've watched you play your little Troll game from day one since you arrived here, &, sadly, you've suckered many of the regulars here into your laughable, for-the-sake-of-it "debates." Robinson besting Patterson in the late 50's is another such absurdity, & you're too boring (for mine, at least --- as mentioned, you've got plenty of others biting your bait) to carry the stupidity of it.

[Minotauro]

Patterson would have been far too big and powerful for Ray who himslef was past his best, good thing this match didn't happen.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Evidently, you're the one who missed it. If you've seen the fight --- as opposed to digging up the record books on BoxRec --- you'll know Maxim was the fortunate recepient of a terrible, terrible decision, but, since you haven't, you didn't realise the gun was loaded when you shot yourself in the foot.

- My dearest smiley face:lol: , I can chop off both feet and still outleg the likes of you.

I have seen the bout and it is competitive. Point being that the fight was not competitive against Ray by a Maxim near his best, not the past it version that Floyd got. I could care less about rankings. Leon of Neon toppled Ali quite easily in spite of being the good sport of jokes, not a ranked heavy.

The other point being that Floyd was down somewhere approaching 100X in his career, either by clean KDs or by shaky legs failing him in an out of balance state. A fragile champ.

The fight was offered as D'amato confesses up, and turned down as he explained. After Roy Harri Floyd fights Brian London and then KOed by Ingo. He was KDd by Harris at the point of the Robby offer. Shaky legs my dearest smiley face, propping up shaky arguments by shaky smiley faces by you.

It was a credible fight turned down. Rademacher, Harris, London and McNeely were not credible heavy contenders. Had Floyd been fighting the cream and not the farm hands, one could excuse the Robby slight. Has nothing to do with who would win, that's just opinion that you've dumped on us.

[Djanders]

In my opinion, Floyd Patterson would not have had an easy time with Sugar Ray Robinson. I could see Floyd winning a close decision, but I wouldn't be shocked if Ray won.

[dempseyfire]

Evidently, you're the one who missed it. If you've seen the fight --- as opposed to digging up the record books on BoxRec --- you'll know Maxim was the fortunate recepient of a terrible, terrible decision, but, since you haven't, you didn't realise the gun was loaded when you shot yourself in the foot.

- My dearest smiley face:lol: , I can chop off both feet and still outleg the likes of you.

I have seen the bout and it is competitive. Point being that the fight was not competitive against Ray by a Maxim near his best, not the past it version that Floyd got. I could care less about rankings. Leon of Neon toppled Ali quite easily in spite of being the good sport of jokes, not a ranked heavy.

Not competitive, one guy won by TKO and it wasn't Robinson. And the heat excuse is lame . .Maxim wasn't fighting in a self-enclosed icebox the last I saw of the film.

The other point being that Floyd was down somewhere approaching 100X in his career, either by clean KDs or by shaky legs failing him in an out of balance state. A fragile champ.
The fight was offered as D'amato confesses up, and turned down as he explained. After Roy Harri Floyd fights Brian London and then KOed by Ingo. He was KDd by Harris at the point of the Robby offer. Shaky legs my dearest smiley face, propping up shaky arguments by shaky smiley faces by you.

Those were all legitimate heavyweights, and besides Ingo Floyd won all those fights

Rademacher, Harris, London and McNeely were not credible heavy contenders. .

And Robinson was? There is no evidence Robinson could've beaten Brian London let alone Patterson, in fact not any evidence Robinson could've beat a top light heavyweight. Saying that Patterson wasn't fighting the best contenders available is a totally seperate issue, as Ray's heavyweight resume was 0-0-0.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

There is no evidence Robinson could've beaten Brian London let alone Patterson, in fact not any evidence Robinson could've beat a top light heavyweight. Saying that Patterson wasn't fighting the best contenders available is a totally seperate issue, as Ray's heavyweight resume was 0-0-0.

- You really are a simple one not to have figured out there is no evidence Rademacher could've beaten Brian London let alone Patterson, in fact not any evidence Rademacher could've beat a top light heavyweight. Rademacher's heavyweight resume was the same as Ray's heavyweight resume, 0-0-0.

[jezzamundo]

If the fight had happened at the suggested time, Robinson would have been destroyed, knocked out, no question. I'm sure he would have looked good in short spurts, and he probably did have the power to knock Patterson down, but at this late stage of his career Robinson was well past his best. Part of Robinson's greatness is that he managed to achieve as much as he did at middleweight while never actually being a natural middleweight (until he was past his best). Light Heavy proved a step too far, although Robinson showed that he did have what it takes to be a LHW champion, although in reality he could never have reigned there long, as it is just so far above his natural weight.

If the fight took place earlier with Robinson in his prime, it would be interesting while it lasted, but Robinson would still be knocked out. As it is proposed in this post, it is a complete and utter mis-match, a post prime natural welterweight against a powerful heavyweight with possibly the fastest hands the division has ever seen. Silly, silly matchup.

[Robinson]

It is not a match I made up. It was one that was very much suggested.

I think Patterson had the youth, size and power to win.

It would have been an interesting event though.
Without doubt, a younger earlier Robinson transported to that
time would have done a lot better, but I still feel the outcome
would have been in Patterson's favour.

[jezzamundo]

It is not a match I made up. It was one that was very much suggested.

I think Patterson had the youth, size and power to win.

It would have been an interesting event though.
Without doubt, a younger earlier Robinson transported to that
time would have done a lot better, but I still feel the outcome
would have been in Patterson's favour.

Sorry, I didn't mean so sound like you had made the matchup, merely saying that whoever suggested the matchup must have really hated Robinson!

[Robinson]

Thats ok mate ;)