Middleweights vs heavyweights...

[Robinson]

hey gents

How do you think these David vs Goliath matches would have played out...

peak for peak...15 rounds...no 3 knock down

Marvin Hagler Vs Jerry Quarry / Eddie Machen

Bernard Hopkins Vs Jack Dempsey

Ray Robinson Vs Jack Johnson

Thomas Hearns Vs James Corbett / Zora Folley

Carlos Monzon Vs Leon Spinks / Tom Sharkey

James Toney (160-168lbs) Vs Tommy Burns / Max Baer

Roy Jones Jr (160-170lbs) Vs Jess Willard / Rocky Marciano

How do you see these fights playing out...

[Robinson]

Im not trying to stir anything up. I am genuinely interested in
knowing how you feel these talented and game 160lbers would
fare against these big tough men.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Quarry had skills, but he was a fighter, first & foremost. Sounds a little like his opponent. Thing is, Quarry hurt Heavies. He'd pulverise Hagler, who'd fall in six rounds or fewer. A shot, natural Welterweight Ray Leonard outboxed & out-foxed an ageing Hagler, so a prime Heavyweight in Machen, who lasted the distance with Liston, would hold him off at will. Difference is, Machen would end it where Leonard could not. Another victory inside the distance for the bigger man.

I'm sure you & I won't see eye-to-eye on this one, Robbo, but, for mine...Dempsey absolutely flattens Hopkins, & I don't know if Hopkins ever fights again. An iron-jaw, like most things in boxing is a relative thing, subject to weight divisions. When Felix Trinidad or Kelly Pavlik are hitting you, okay --- when it's Jack Dempsey, well...

Robinson couldn't get by Maxim at Light-Heavy, & Ketchel was a similarly fabulous Middleweight to Robinson who went the minute Johnson got serious with him. Much of the same here for the smaller Robinson, who can neither stay away forever or effectively counter-attack from the outside. Johnson often made short-work of smaller adversaries. None would be more diminuitive than the over-matched Robinson, who loses convincingly.

Corbett & Foley had under-rated power at Heavyweight. They certainly hit a hell of a lot harder than a Welterweight Leonard or a Middleweight Hagler, both of whom put Hearns on queer street. Hearns needs the range against opponents who can hurt him (& he was chinny against men half the size of his opponents here) & he doesn't have it in these match-ups. Worse, he's pitted against defensive Heavyweights, who wouldn't provide many counter-attack opportunities. Can he hurt them with that right hand? Possibly, yes. Can he KO them? I really doubt it. He gets KO'ed by both. Hard.

Monzon falls hard & early to Sharkey. Throw that one out, IMO. Spinks? Well, Spinks did fight as low as Cruiser, but Monzon never moved up, so that doesn't help his assessment. This is the closest fight thus far, but I'm going to five Neon Leon the bright lights of benefit of the doubt against the great Escopita (whom I once ranked as the best Middle of all-time). I say Spinks comes out, never stops throwing, & eventually stops Monzon, who isn't accustomed to having anything less than significant size advantages.

Too early in Toney's career for him to beat Burns. Perhaps a little later, but not as a Middleweight or Super-Middle, no. Burns on decision. Ditto, against Baer, whose right hand may've put Toney into orbit. Toney was a very capable counter-puncher who may've experienced success early against the clumsier Baer, but he's not staying away from him --- that wasn't Toney, & if Baer can find Schmeling, he can find just about any Middleweight, IMO.

As a Super-Middle, I really can't pick on Jones-Willard. I can see a good, solid case for either man. The Jones who beat Ruiz would probably do Willard in, but we're not talking about the experienced Light-Heavy bulking up --- we're talking about the greener 160-168lber, though he did probably peak at Super-Middle. Jones goes down in flames, however, against Marciano. It's as spectacular a KO as you'll ever see, & it comes after five rounds of Jones running & holding for his life.

One, maybe two wins for the little fellas, here, IMO. No more.

[jezzamundo]

Quarry had skills, but he was a fighter, first & foremost. Sounds a little like his opponent. Thing is, Quarry hurt Heavies. He'd pulverise Hagler, who'd fall in six rounds or fewer. A shot, natural Welterweight Ray Leonard outboxed & out-foxed an ageing Hagler, so a prime Heavyweight in Machen, who lasted the distance with Liston, would hold him off at will. Difference is, Machen would end it where Leonard could not. Another victory inside the distance for the bigger man.

I'm sure you & I won't see eye-to-eye on this one, Robbo, but, for mine...Dempsey absolutely flattens Hopkins, & I don't know if Hopkins ever fights again. An iron-jaw, like most things in boxing is a relative thing, subject to weight divisions. When Felix Trinidad or Kelly Pavlik are hitting you, okay --- when it's Jack Dempsey, well...

Robinson couldn't get by Maxim at Light-Heavy, & Ketchel was a similarly fabulous Middleweight to Robinson who went the minute Johnson got serious with him. Much of the same here for the smaller Robinson, who can neither stay away forever or effectively counter-attack from the outside. Johnson often made short-work of smaller adversaries. None would be more diminuitive than the over-matched Robinson, who loses convincingly.

Corbett & Foley had under-rated power at Heavyweight. They certainly hit a hell of a lot harder than a Welterweight Leonard or a Middleweight Hagler, both of whom put Hearns on queer street. Hearns needs the range against opponents who can hurt him (& he was chinny against men half the size of his opponents here) & he doesn't have it in these match-ups. Worse, he's pitted against defensive Heavyweights, who wouldn't provide many counter-attack opportunities. Can he hurt them with that right hand? Possibly, yes. Can he KO them? I really doubt it. He gets KO'ed by both. Hard.

Monzon falls hard & early to Sharkey. Throw that one out, IMO. Spinks? Well, Spinks did fight as low as Cruiser, but Monzon never moved up, so that doesn't help his assessment. This is the closest fight thus far, but I'm going to five Neon Leon the bright lights of benefit of the doubt against the great Escopita (whom I once ranked as the best Middle of all-time). I say Spinks comes out, never stops throwing, & eventually stops Monzon, who isn't accustomed to having anything less than significant size advantages.

Too early in Toney's career for him to beat Burns. Perhaps a little later, but not as a Middleweight or Super-Middle, no. Burns on decision. Ditto, against Baer, whose right hand may've put Toney into orbit. Toney was a very capable counter-puncher who may've experienced success early against the clumsier Baer, but he's not staying away from him --- that wasn't Toney, & if Baer can find Schmeling, he can find just about any Middleweight, IMO.

As a Super-Middle, I really can't pick on Jones-Willard. I can see a good, solid case for either man. The Jones who beat Ruiz would probably do Willard in, but we're not talking about the experienced Light-Heavy bulking up --- we're talking about the greener 160-168lber, though he did probably peak at Super-Middle. Jones goes down in flames, however, against Marciano. It's as spectacular a KO as you'll ever see, & it comes after five rounds of Jones running & holding for his life.

One, maybe two wins for the little fellas, here, IMO. No more.

Wow, I was going to post, but you really said it all. I can't say I disagree with any of your assessments.

[dempseyfire]

Boxing history is full of 175 lbers knocking out good heavyweights. 160 lbs though gets to a point where the size disparity really tells, as natural middleweights would really have a sizable strength and power disadvantage. Two of the guys here (Ray and Hearns) were even at their best at lower weight classes. You have seen a few freaks of nature like Greb and Langford break the rules, but Harry IMO is the greatest middleweight to have ever fought and Langford one of the top 3 PFP fighters ever.

Toney-Burns is an interesting contest considering Burns at his peak only weighed 165-180. I would love to see Burns power and aggression vs Toney's slickness, would've been a fun fight.

The only other guy I'm giving a chance of winning is Roy vs Willard over 12 rounds. Over 15 or more Jess wears him out.

[Adamj1987]

hey gents

How do you think these David vs Goliath matches would have played out...

peak for peak...15 rounds...no 3 knock down

Marvin Hagler Vs Jerry Quarry / Eddie Machen

Bernard Hopkins Vs Jack Dempsey

Ray Robinson Vs Jack Johnson

Thomas Hearns Vs James Corbett / Zora Folley

Carlos Monzon Vs Leon Spinks / Tom Sharkey

James Toney (160-168lbs) Vs Tommy Burns / Max Baer

Roy Jones Jr (160-170lbs) Vs Jess Willard / Rocky Marciano

How do you see these fights playing out...

[The Great John L]

Marvin Hagler Vs Jerry Quarry / Eddie Machen

The quick footed master technician Hagler methodically chops up Quarry and stops him on cuts in the 6th round.
Hagler KO2 over Machen.

Bernard Hopkins Vs Jack Dempsey

Everyone has seen how the blown up Orchid Man wobbled Dempsey. After some hectic early rounds, Hopkins catches the charging Dempsey with a counter right and drops him ala Tarver, only Dempsey doesn't get up. Hopkins KO 5

Ray Robinson Vs Jack Johnson

Johnson's hugging and wrestling techniques just won't cut it against the greatest WW of all time as Robinson toys with the over rated Johnson and wins every round.

Thomas Hearns Vs James Corbett / Zora Folley

Hearns blasts both of them out in the first round. On the same night. With one hand tied behind his back.

Carlos Monzon Vs Leon Spinks / Tom Sharkey

Monzon toys with the game but wild swinging Spinks before stopping him in the 3rd round.
The Sailor is completely out boxed and stopped on cuts in the 2nd.

James Toney (160-168lbs) Vs Tommy Burns / Max Baer

Toney makes Max look like the complete amateur that he was winning a UD.
A sharp counter staggers the on-rushing Burns. Toney follows up with a 3 punch combo to score a clean KO at :35 of the first.

Roy Jones Jr (160-170lbs) Vs Jess Willard / Rocky Marciano

Jones KO 1 over the cowboy Willard. If Dempsey could batter the big bum, imagine what RJJ would do to the circus clown.

Jones toys with the glacier slow Marciano, stopping him on cuts in the 4th round of a total mis-match.

[Robinson]

John L

Are you being sarcastic good sir? :)

[Robinson]

Just a query

Why do people here think that a 5'8, 170-180lb Tom Sharkey
would man handle a near 6', 160lb Monzon ?

[dempseyfire]

Just a query

Why do people here think that a 5'8, 170-180lb Tom Sharkey
would man handle a near 6', 160lb Monzon ?

I wouldn't say "man-handle" but I'll bring up a few points . . .

1)If Monzon could've beaten great light HWs/small heavyweights why did he never leave 160? Don't tell me he wouldn't have made better money.

2) Monzon wasn't a big KO guy, Sharkey was incredibly strong and durable. Monzon almost always had the size advantage at 160 which he used . . .he wouldn't vs Sharkey (besides height, which Tom was used to)

3) Monzon showed some vulnerability vs pressure guys (the first Briscoe fight, Valdez) . . .I don't think of anyone who would rate Briscoe or Valdez well below an 184 lb Tom Sharkey, who brought forth pressure in spades.

[Grimm]

I would think the middleweights who were faster and relied less on size and power would fare alot better.

[Robinson]

Money is a big reason though DF. At that time the MW division was
a good money division. Plus HW's were slowly getting to be a little
more consistently heavier and bigger in the 70s.

Do you think Sharkey would have fought HW had their been good
money at MW and LHW ?

Jim Williams who managed to draw against Sharkey was essentially
a MW> as an example.

Sharkey strikes me as some one is extremely strong and conditioned
and who through tenacious conditioning wills himself to win. Until he
meets a Jeffries or so on.

I just find that while their is not a great deal of size difference and
Monzon being the well conditioned and adaptive fighter that he is
that it would be a good even match up.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

.

- Didn't mention the size of the gloves, 3-10 oz, or whether the neutral corner KD rule is in effect.

Assuming neutral corner, 6oz gloves--

Marvin Hagler Vs Jerry Quarry / Eddie Machen

Bernard Hopkins Vs Jack Dempsey

Ray Robinson Vs Jack Johnson

Thomas Hearns Vs James Corbett / Zora Folley

Carlos Monzon Vs Leon Spinks / Tom Sharkey

James Toney (160-168lbs) Vs Tommy Burns / Max Baer

Roy Jones Jr (160-170lbs) Vs Jess Willard / Rocky Marciano

[Robinson]

Neutral corner. 10-12 oz gloves. But if you want 6oz's
so be it.

[dempseyfire]

Money is a big reason though DF. At that time the MW division was
a good money division. Plus HW's were slowly getting to be a little
more consistently heavier and bigger in the 70s.

Do you think Sharkey would have fought HW had their been good
money at MW and LHW ?

Jim Williams who managed to draw against Sharkey was essentially
a MW> as an example.

Sharkey strikes me as some one is extremely strong and conditioned
and who through tenacious conditioning wills himself to win. Until he
meets a Jeffries or so on.

I just find that while their is not a great deal of size difference and
Monzon being the well conditioned and adaptive fighter that he is
that it would be a good even match up.

A champion from a lower division challenging the champ in another division has ALWAYS made big money. Robinson was making better money than Monzon in 160 matches but made a pretty penny off the Maxim challenge.

Yes, Monzon was an adaptable fighter, but I think a guy who went so many rounds vs all-time great boxers and defeated the likes of Choynski and Corbett will lose sleep with Monzon, a solid all-around fighter but a guy who lacked any one special attribute that would serve him vs such a tenacious bigger man.

[bollox]

I really can't understand why anyone would be interested in these sorts fights. Boxing is about matching guys of the same weight, not big man V small man. Has anyone here ever been impressed by the big schoolyard bully pounding the crap out of some tiny guy?

[Robinson]

Because in the past often smaller men from WW and up stepped
into the foray against HW's.

Often MWs were regulars on the resume against HWs.

What has this got to do with the school yard bully ?

These are matches between talented men at different levels
and of varying sizes.

I was interested in seeing if people felt the little man in these
given scenarios would have a chance or if they thought it
would be a blow out. I was not looking to put on a PPV of
balanced match up's as such.

Sorry to upset... ;)

[Sweet P]

Some of these mathups are far more even than people think, Monzon Hopkins Toney wouls all weigh around 170-175 if not fighting at the middle weight limit for a start.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I really can't understand why anyone would be interested in these sorts fights. Boxing is about matching guys of the same weight, not big man V small man. Has anyone here ever been impressed by the big schoolyard bully pounding the crap out of some tiny guy?

I suspect, if I know our Kym, it is as much an issue of eras in which the men fought as it is size.

[bollox]

I really can't understand why anyone would be interested in these sorts fights. Boxing is about matching guys of the same weight, not big man V small man. Has anyone here ever been impressed by the big schoolyard bully pounding the crap out of some tiny guy?

I suspect, if I know our Kym, it is as much an issue of eras in which the men fought as it is size.

I reckon in the early day a few of the smaller guys had some success based on the fact that a lot of fighters had a poor skill level, combined with the fact that the rules were very different to today (eg the use of grappling). The best example of where a highly skilled middleweight took on a highly skilled HW in the early days was Johnson v Ketchel. And we all know how that one turned out

Look back through the decades and you'll see that the old saying of "a good big man always beats a good little man" was a truism in the game

[Robinson]

I really can't understand why anyone would be interested in these sorts fights. Boxing is about matching guys of the same weight, not big man V small man. Has anyone here ever been impressed by the big schoolyard bully pounding the crap out of some tiny guy?

I suspect, if I know our Kym, it is as much an issue of eras in which the men fought as it is size.

You suspicions on my alter motives shock me GI :P

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I reckon in the early day a few of the smaller guys had some success based on the fact that a lot of fighters had a poor skill level, combined with the fact that the rules were very different to today (eg the use of grappling). The best example of where a highly skilled middleweight took on a highly skilled HW in the early days was Johnson v Ketchel. And we all know how that one turned out

Look back through the decades and you'll see that the old saying of "a good big man always beats a good little man" was a truism in the game

- Looking at the success of Juanita Ruiz and Popkins, clearly grappling is no lost art. JJohnson would feel right at home.

The first example of a highly skilled middleweight taking on a highly skilled HW that I'm aware is Bob Fitzsimmons who knocked out Ruhlin, Maher, Sharkey, and Corbett.

The precedent leads to the Ketchel challenge to Johnson and a flurry of middle champs challenging heavies in the 20s like Greb, Flowers, and Walker and so on up to the present. Jack Dempsey was a tall, skinny middle starting out and grew into the division and I imagine Johnson was a middle starting out as well.

It wasn't considered a big deal until the limit changed to 200+ or when Ray Robinson challenged Patterson. Ninnies are in complete outrage over Ray challenging Patterson for some reason which is strange because Floyd often described as a blown up middle. Small teapots boil over easy.

Heck, Walker was also a welter champ like Ray was, and we had lightweights Langford and Carpentier holding heavy belts.

[The Great John L]

1)If Monzon could've beaten great light HWs/small heavyweights why did he never leave 160? Don't tell me he wouldn't have made better money.

When Monzon was MW champ the HW division included guys like Frazier, Ali, Norton, Quarry, etc. And Bob Foster held the LH title. When RJJ looked at the HW division (from his LH perch) he saw John Ruiz holding a title. No great mystery why they each chose the road that they did.

[The Great John L]

Do you think Sharkey would have fought HW had their been good
money at MW and LHW ?

When Tom Sharkey fought there was no LH division, and he seldom weighed anywhere near the MW limit.

[The Great John L]

The first example of a highly skilled middleweight taking on a highly skilled HW that I'm aware is Bob Fitzsimmons...

Charley Mitchell's fights against Sullivan and Corbett pre-dated Fitz's win over Corbett.

MW's fighting HWs was quite common until the inception and acceptance of the LH division because the next step up from MW was HW.