Punch power?

Matchfixer · Post by **Matchfixer** » 09 Jul 2004, 20:12

I expect this has been covered before but anyway...

The average boxer punches harder than your average non-boxer who is the same weight. So... how does it compare , on average, for example - does a 9st boxer punch as hard as your average 13 st non-boxer?

Can someone give me some indication of how boxers punch power compares against non boxers?

The Hawk · Post by **The Hawk** » 09 Jul 2004, 20:33

A punch is all about how you throw it, weight does not have to come into it in terms of power between 13 stone guy or someone lighter, unless there is a huge differance, then strength can come into it. I learnt this through martial arts and kick boxing.

For example a swinging punch from a 13 stone guy with no snap, or body behind it could well hold a lot less power than a punch from a lighter guy. If the lighter guy has thrown a straight punch with a fast snap and has placed his body weight well.

I remember being taught this before. Get some one to swing an arm at you slow and you grap their fist and you'll be able to knock them off balance and push them back. Then get some lighter to through a straight punch at you with their body weight behind it, in a correct stance etc and you'll find you'll not be able to move them back. Or if you can, it will be with a lot more trouble. That is a better punch and can create more power.

I've trained with big guys before and you think they could hit etc hard on the pads and you see through skill mostly, the lighter guys who throw better punchs will hit the pads etc harder. Now if you get a big guy throwing a correct punch you'll know all about it

Im sure others may explain better to you than I have. Thats just my experances.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 10 Jul 2004, 12:43

I'm sure I read a few years ago that Frank Bruno's punch was measured and was said to be the equivilent of being hit by a padded 12lb mallet travelling at 25mph.

I assume it was a jab but can't remember.

lirva33 · Post by **lirva33** » 12 Jul 2004, 16:41

bump because the question is interesting...

I was out on saturday night and outside the club a brawl erupted. It all started over some minger I think. But anyway, the people fighting were throwing punches with no technique and no power. it was hilarious to watch. What happens when a non fighter throws a punch is they just throw an arm punch or a lunging, poorly timed punch. Fighters get everything into their punches. Non fighters never aim for the chin either.

Matchfixer · Post by **Matchfixer** » 12 Jul 2004, 17:14

lirva33 wrote:bump because the question is interesting...

I was out on saturday night and outside the club a brawl erupted. It all started over some minger I think. But anyway, the people fighting were throwing punches with no technique and no power. it was hilarious to watch. What happens when a non fighter throws a punch is they just throw an arm punch or a lunging, poorly timed punch. Fighters get everything into their punches. Non fighters never aim for the chin either.

Very amusing. Can you tell us more? Where were the punches landing? (if they were landing)

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 13 Jul 2004, 06:05

I remember reading that a full blooded punch from Bruno was equivalent in force to MOTORBIKE travelling at 25 mph.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 13 Jul 2004, 06:09

the difference between Joe Public and a pro fighter is immense when it comes to a pub punch up.....

on two seperate occasions I have been out with friends (very good boxers) and they have been forced to defend themselves when outnumbered and the results were frightening...... whilst I dont like violence on the street it was rather comical to see 3 or 4 bully boy geezers get flattened in a matter of seconds.....

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 13 Jul 2004, 06:15

I remember seeing a fight at university between a semi-pro boxer and half the rugby team.

The Rugby boys were all pissed up and were sitting at an adjacent table, where the boxer was having a quiet drink with his missus. They were swinging their pints around in time to whatever rugby song they were singing at the time, when one of their pints slipped out of their hand, and flew across the partition between the tables. The pint smashed into the boxer's wife

What followed was one of the most explosive moments of physical violence I've ever witnessed, as the boxer leapt over the divide and began pumelling anyone within arm's reach. The rugby lads tried to surge over the divide to contain the threat, but as they leapt up they were pummelled back down again, it was like a field of wheat being mown down.

Eventually the fight got broken up, but at the stage at which it was stopped the rugby boys had taken a frightful beating and the boxer was totally unmarked, except for his hands which were cut to fornicate. He was immediately thrown out of the university.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 13 Jul 2004, 06:24

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I remember seeing a fight at university between a semi-pro boxer and half the rugby team.

The Rugby boys were all pissed up and were sitting at an adjacent table, where the boxer was having a quiet drink with his missus. They were swinging their pints around in time to whatever rugby song they were singing at the time, when one of their pints slipped out of their hand, and flew across the partition between the tables. The pint smashed into the boxer's wife

What followed was one of the most explosive moments of physical violence I've ever witnessed, as the boxer leapt over the divide and began pumelling anyone within arm's reach. The rugby lads tried to surge over the divide to contain the threat, but as they leapt up they were pummelled back down again, it was like a field of wheat being mown down.

Eventually the fight got broken up, but at the stage at which it was stopped the rugby boys had taken a frightful beating and the boxer was totally unmarked, except for his hands which were cut to fornicate. He was immediately thrown out of the university.

was that in level 2????

Thinking_Hard · Post by **Thinking_Hard** » 13 Jul 2004, 06:26

I am sure you mean.....The difference in that, a person who does not, and does know how to throw a punch? Not merely a matter of proffession? That being the case a small guy who knows how to throw a punch, is going to hit much harder than someone who does not know how to throw a punch, and a big guy "should" be able to hit harder than the small guy who knows how to throw.

If you are asking for the equation of a punchs power thats very difficult to awnser. I know it begins with something like Twice your speed plus half mass.

So lets make a fake point system shall we. 1mph=1 point, and 1pnd=1pnt. If all holds true.

Punches would correlate with no other factors like this.

100pnd puncher, punching at 70mph =240 points
140pnd puncher, punching at 70mph=260 points
With a differance of 20 points between them, the 140pnd punchers, punch should be 1/13 stronger. So the smaller puncher would have to punch 80mph to punch as hard as the 140pnd puncher.

So you need to be faster than a bigger guy to do roughly the same amout of damage if you were "equal" in all other areas.

There are some big holes in this logic, and you should be very fast to grasp them. This is very simplified but it does hold some water.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 13 Jul 2004, 06:42

knockout wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:I remember seeing a fight at university between a semi-pro boxer and half the rugby team.

The Rugby boys were all pissed up and were sitting at an adjacent table, where the boxer was having a quiet drink with his missus. They were swinging their pints around in time to whatever rugby song they were singing at the time, when one of their pints slipped out of their hand, and flew across the partition between the tables. The pint smashed into the boxer's wife

What followed was one of the most explosive moments of physical violence I've ever witnessed, as the boxer leapt over the divide and began pumelling anyone within arm's reach. The rugby lads tried to surge over the divide to contain the threat, but as they leapt up they were pummelled back down again, it was like a field of wheat being mown down.

Eventually the fight got broken up, but at the stage at which it was stopped the rugby boys had taken a frightful beating and the boxer was totally unmarked, except for his hands which were cut to fornicate. He was immediately thrown out of the university.
was that in level 2????

No the SU Bar as I remember it. Remember those seats which were sort of like booths? It was on the right hand side if you were facing away from the main bar.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 13 Jul 2004, 06:45

i dont remember that incident... must have been the year before I started....
some of those rugby boys were first class toss bags..... glad they got a beating....

Remember mad greek george bashed a few of them in top bar once

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 13 Jul 2004, 06:46

Thinking_Hard wrote:I am sure you mean.....The difference in that, a person who does not, and does know how to throw a punch? Not merely a matter of proffession? That being the case a small guy who knows how to throw a punch, is going to hit much harder than someone who does not know how to throw a punch, and a big guy "should" be able to hit harder than the small guy who knows how to throw.

If you are asking for the equation of a punchs power thats very difficult to awnser. I know it begins with something like Twice your speed plus half mass.

So lets make a fake point system shall we. 1mph=1 point, and 1pnd=1pnt. If all holds true.

Punches would correlate with no other factors like this.

100pnd puncher, punching at 70mph =240 points
140pnd puncher, punching at 70mph=260 points
With a differance of 20 points between them, the 140pnd punchers, punch should be 1/13 stronger. So the smaller puncher would have to punch 80mph to punch as hard as the 140pnd puncher.

So you need to be faster than a bigger guy to do roughly the same amout of damage if you were "equal" in all other areas.

There are some big holes in this logic, and you should be very fast to grasp them. This is very simplified but it does hold some water.

There are too many factors to take into account as to what makes a punch effective. Punch placement is every bit as important as power, as it is a particular spot.

The equation you are referring to, is the kinetic energy of the punch, but that only takes into account the fist itself. You have to factor in transference of weight and momentum. Kinetic energy is mainly reliant on speed, and as we know, the speed of a punch doesn't determine it's effectiveness. If it did, then George foreman would never have been such a devastating hitter.

J · Post by J » 13 Jul 2004, 07:18

theres another thread on this where there were some pretty detailed discussions on it all.
seem to remember I posted a link to a kung fu sensei who explained it all pretty well.

Coconut · Post by **Coconut** » 13 Jul 2004, 07:29

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I remember seeing a fight at university between a semi-pro boxer and half the rugby team.

The Rugby boys were all pissed up and were sitting at an adjacent table, where the boxer was having a quiet drink with his missus. They were swinging their pints around in time to whatever rugby song they were singing at the time, when one of their pints slipped out of their hand, and flew across the partition between the tables. The pint smashed into the boxer's wife

What followed was one of the most explosive moments of physical violence I've ever witnessed, as the boxer leapt over the divide and began pumelling anyone within arm's reach. The rugby lads tried to surge over the divide to contain the threat, but as they leapt up they were pummelled back down again, it was like a field of wheat being mown down.

Eventually the fight got broken up, but at the stage at which it was stopped the rugby boys had taken a frightful beating and the boxer was totally unmarked, except for his hands which were cut to fornicate. He was immediately thrown out of the university.

Story from a chip shop in St Helens:

Stuart Evans, ex-Neath and Wales prop forward who went north to play league for Saints and was (and probably still is) hard as fornicate, queueing quietly with his missus in a chip shop of a Saturday evening, in strolls Gary Stretch, dolly bird on arm, straight to the front of the queue. Evans points out that there's a queue, Stretch comes out with, "I'm Gary Stretch, ex-British light middleweight champion," and told Evans where he could go. Evans laid him out cold with one shot, stepped over him and ordered a fish supper.

Watching non-martial artists fight is always quite amusing. I no longer box but do play rugby and the number of lumps who think they can ruck is ridiculous. I'm not a punchy player by any means, though.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 13 Jul 2004, 12:24

knockout wrote:some of those rugby boys were first class toss bags

Same at Loughborough Uni as well mate, had a few run-ins with some of them myself.

J · Post by J » 13 Jul 2004, 12:28

never did understand all that drinking piss, stripping off naked in the clubhouse and shaving of eye brows.

In fact it finished playing eventually well that and constant injury but straw that broke the camels back. (Was my 19th bday and they shaved my eye brow off) I wasnt happy the following sat I got a call saying where are you? We got no scrum half? "go fornicate yourselves find yousrself a new scrum half"

And that was that.
mindless.

Loved and still do love the game tho just not some of its sillier traditions.

Thinking_Hard · Post by **Thinking_Hard** » 13 Jul 2004, 13:54

Foreman is a very heavy man. That would add alot of impact. Anyway, the example is overtly simplified. I am talking "equal" in all areas. That would include placement of punches.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 13 Jul 2004, 19:43

The best punch is the punch you don’t see being delivered, as said by Ray Robinson.

His name has been mentioned before on the link so I will use it again. Frank Bruno probably hit as hard as, if not harder than any past or present heavyweight, but because he was slow delivering it he seldom scored the clean KO, whereas Tyson being exceptionally fast for a heavy scores the clean KO more regularly.
So because of the clean KO Tyson is seen as the harder hitter.

And most fights you see on the streets are not real fights where two people go at it, but one person, normally bigger, hitting on a smaller bloke who doesn’t want to know.

Deserter · Post by **Deserter** » 14 Jul 2004, 03:00

KOJOE90 wrote:
knockout wrote:some of those rugby boys were first class toss bags
Same at Loughborough Uni as well mate, had a few run-ins with some of them myself.

Same at Warwick as well. One on one a lot of them were OK, but when they all get together it's that stupid 'pack' mentality.
Also, the sad 'f**ks' who used to strut around uni with their rugby shirt on or whatever club they represented e.g. "Warwick Karate Club", as if it entitled them to bragging rights.
Used to find the martial arts boys especially amusing as they were walk around like they were the daddies, but most had only started at uni so were barely above white belt level. At this point I'd been doing Tae Kwon Do for eight years and had won national honours so allowed myself a quiet chuckle at their 'showmanship'.

Coconut · Post by **Coconut** » 14 Jul 2004, 04:25

Deserter wrote:
KOJOE90 wrote:
knockout wrote:some of those rugby boys were first class toss bags
Same at Loughborough Uni as well mate, had a few run-ins with some of them myself.
Same at Warwick as well. One on one a lot of them were OK, but when they all get together it's that stupid 'pack' mentality.
Also, the sad 'f**ks' who used to strut around uni with their rugby shirt on or whatever club they represented e.g. "Warwick Karate Club", as if it entitled them to bragging rights.
Used to find the martial arts boys especially amusing as they were walk around like they were the daddies, but most had only started at uni so were barely above white belt level. At this point I'd been doing Tae Kwon Do for eight years and had won national honours so allowed myself a quiet chuckle at their 'showmanship'.

Anyone else see that feature on the Sports Show at Earls Court where WIll Greenwood gave what those quaint Americans call 'mad props' to boxers?

I think the truth is that rugby players think they play a damn tough game, and some of them do. They just don't know, to the most part, just what is involved with boxing. We had a guy at our uni who went on to play for Ireland on the flank who had boxed and used to call us the 'nutty boys', but in the same side was a hooker (alongside whom I'd propped - he was average) who came running with us one morning to work his way back into fitness after an injury. After 15 minutes he'd 'pulled a hamstring' and wimped out.

Certainly when I ditched the rugby and concentrated on boxing, the one thing of which I was resentful was that they could go out on the beers twice a week.

Deserter · Post by **Deserter** » 14 Jul 2004, 05:50

Coconut wrote:WIll Greenwood gave what those quaint Americans call 'mad props' to boxers

Bizarrely enough I met him a couple of weeks ago as my mate was his flatmate at Durham Uni. Seemed like a really nice guy.
I've got complete respect for the pros, it's when they're at the uni stage and they're young guys who are big fish in a small pond that they can become unbearable.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 14 Jul 2004, 19:18

[/quote]

Story from a chip shop in St Helens:

Stuart Evans, ex-Neath and Wales prop forward who went north to play league for Saints and was (and probably still is) hard as fornicate, queueing quietly with his missus in a chip shop of a Saturday evening, in strolls Gary Stretch, dolly bird on arm, straight to the front of the queue. Evans points out that there's a queue, Stretch comes out with, "I'm Gary Stretch, ex-British light middleweight champion," and told Evans where he could go. Evans laid him out cold with one shot, stepped over him and ordered a fish supper.
[/quote]

Heres a question for you all, who was the first person to put Gary Sretch on the canvas in the professional ring.
Hint..ex-ABA champion.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 15 Jul 2004, 05:54

Thinking_Hard wrote:Foreman is a very heavy man. That would add alot of impact. Anyway, the example is overtly simplified. I am talking "equal" in all areas. That would include placement of punches.

Foreman is not a very heavy man at all. In his prime he weighed no more than 225, pretty small by today's standards. He was much bigger in his second career, but certainly punched far harder in his first.

What he was, was a very stiff-armed puncher, he used his arms like battering rams, and most of his power was generated from the flexion of his torse, effectively wheelings around the axis

The bit about not seeing punches coming is also most certainly true, look at the shot that Mike McCallum landed on Don Curry, and the shot Curry landed on McCrory. McCallum threw a fast snaking shot, Curry literally saw it at the last minute, by which time it was too late to ride the shot. McCrory never saw the short left hook at all.

I've been told by fighters that the split second you get to adjust to a punch is crucial it allows the fighter to tilt the head slightly, or brace themselves for impact to prevent the neck being whipped round. I think this is a major factor in knockout punches.

Thinking_Hard · Post by **Thinking_Hard** » 16 Jul 2004, 07:22

I am sure you mean torso.

I keep telling everyone the example is simplified. If he was bigger and hit with less force could it not be his speed decrease as he got heavier?

There are alot of factors to punching. I am creating a vaccum effect, makeing it merely be speed and weight as the key factors. This of course does not encompass a ton of factors. Explosive power and every other thing you can think of.

If you catch someone by suprise or flat-footed, they cannot adjust or ride the punch at all and have to take the full impact of a punch. Most punches though end up slideing, being deflected or simply not hitting square. It's F**kin hard to hit square again and again. The person on the other end wants to hurt you to mate! They aint going to stand around and absorb punishment. Well not normally.