Ezzard wrote:My point is that it looks like someone has cut and pasted Foreman in - a photo-shop job!
I do know what you mean --- it appears awkward. Only thing I can tell you is to keep in mind it's an instant in time. Anything can happen in a split-second.
I think it looks awkward because its a photo of a photo, and doesn't appear that it was shot straight-on, but slightly from an angle looking up.
Ezzard wrote:Sorry to be a cynic but that photo has always looked fake to me. I've seen it many times and it's like neither man is reacting to the other being so close. The perspective doesn't look right either.
I'd love it if someone could prove me wrong.
I'm not saying they didn't spar just that the photo doesn't look right.
Of course its posed. Those guys wouldn't have boxing in handwraps.
But there isn't any question they sparred. They were stablemates, both managed by Dick Sadler, and Foreman has commented on sparring with Liston in several interviews. I haven't read his bios, but I'm told he writes about it in his bios.
They did spar together at the Newman-Herman Gym in San Franciso in the late 60's. I was not there, but I have two friends that were.
BoxBuzz wrote:raylaw....."posed" for my meaning is that they weren't smiling and facing the camera. They were likely just moving around the ring looking a bit aloof. Foreman and Liston looking aloof? Imagine that.
the "light source" in this case appears to be from the flash of the camera and is consistent. and there are no pixel anomalies. It's authentic.
... and judging from the posters on the wall, the picture was likely taken prior to the 69-9-23 Houston card on which they both fought.
Brutu wrote:Possibly Liston sparred with Ezzard Charles,around early 1956.
What leads you to consider that?
I seem to remember a newspaer article from around the time
Liston fought Ali,and Liston's age was in dispute.
Ezzard Charles said he seemed to have remember a sparring partner he had who had that name.
Also I believe one of Liston's early managers or potential managers (Tom Tannas)when he was coming up had once been the manager of Ezzard Charles.
But as yet i dont have any proof they actually did spar.
Last edited by Brutu on 11 Apr 2009, 17:17, edited 2 times in total.
You know back around the time Sonny liston was still living in Denver in 1964,he had a conditioning coach by the name of Stan Zimmering, a second degee black-belt in Judo.
Who operated a Karate school in Denver I believe.
Thats when Liston was getting in top shape for the fight that was to be held in Boston that was cancelled in November 1964.
Last edited by Brutu on 09 May 2009, 16:16, edited 1 time in total.
Ezzard wrote:Sorry to be a cynic but that photo has always looked fake to me. I've seen it many times and it's like neither man is reacting to the other being so close. The perspective doesn't look right either.
I'd love it if someone could prove me wrong.
I'm not saying they didn't spar just that the photo doesn't look right.
If you watch(the Emmy award winning)video of the HBO show
Sonny Liston life and Death of Mysterious champion.
They briefly show footage of Liston and Foreman like shadow boxing in front of each other with their hand wraps on.
There was a HW boxer named Cortez Stewart,who sued Liston's managers in 1963,because they told him they help advance his career if he became a sparring partner for Liston.
Dont know if they actually sparred.
raylawpc wrote:It doesn't to me. From the cast of the shadows, it looks like Liston and Foreman were under the same light source.
Often boxers warm-up by shadow boxing in the ring before their workouts. Sometimes you will face off with another boxer, within a safe distance, and shadow box off of their moves. I did it with heavyweights when I was a bantam. Not sparring, just "moving". That's what this picture was. And by the way, in 1967, I was sitting on the ring apron when Liston sparred with Wayne Heath at the Main Street Gym in Los Angeles. What a sight. Liston deflated Heath with thudding hook to the body. Heath took a knee, and then crapped in his white Everlast boxing trunks. True story!
Ray(Matthew)Drayton was a light heavyweight active 1957-1962.
Maybe someone should interview him from the cyberboxing zone or something.
Perhaps he knows some things,like if he suspects who gave Harold Johnson the reportly doctored orange that made him groggy or if Liston was like a real ass*hole or misunderstood nice guy.
Ray(Matthew)Drayton was a light heavyweight active 1957-1962.
Maybe someone should interview him from the cyberboxing zone or something.
Perhaps he knows some things,like if he suspects who gave Harold Johnson the reportly doctored orange that made him groggy or if Liston was like a real ass*hole or misunderstood nice guy.
Sounds`like a job for junior trainee boxing historian 4th class Bobby Boxbuzz.
i have a slight problem with that picture, but as someone said, its a snap in time and quick snaps often fool the eye - its like those old spot-the-ball competitions you used to get. the ball was always way over some ridiculous place and nowhere near the logical area.
Sonny Liston was knocked down in a sparring session by Ray Patterson(Floyd's brother)by a right hand in Sweden in 1966
while preparing to fight Amos Johnson.
There is a photgraph of the knockdown on-line somewhere that appeared in Jet Magazine back then.
Liston is on his back with his feet about 2 feet in the air.
I don't think Foreman was Liston's "sparring partner" in the classic sense-- I think rather they were stablemates who occassionally sparred.
Famous sparring sessions I would love to have seen:
Jim Corbett-Jim Jeffries
Jack Johnson-Gunboat Smith
Jack Johnson-Sam McVey
Jack Dempsey-George Godfrey
Jack Dempsey-Larry Gains
Joe Louis-Jersey Joe Walcott
Sonny Liston-George Foreman
Joe Frazier-Ken Norton
Joe Frazier-Jimmy Young
Muhammad Ali-Larry Holmes
Jerry Quarry-Ken Norton
Ken Norton-Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson-Greg Page
I remember reading in Foreman's autobiography,that the main reason he decided to go with Dick Sadler when he turned pro
was because he wanted to continue to train and spar with his"idol" Sonny Liston.
As far as I can tell George Foreman only fought twice professionally on the same card with Liston.
The second Sonny Moore fight in Houston in 1969 and
on the Liston vrs Leotis Martin fight in Las Vegas.
Mr E wrote:I don't think Foreman was Liston's "sparring partner" in the classic sense-- I think rather they were stablemates who occassionally sparred.
Famous sparring sessions I would love to have seen:
Jim Corbett-Jim Jeffries
Jack Johnson-Gunboat Smith
Jack Johnson-Sam McVey
Jack Dempsey-George Godfrey
Jack Dempsey-Larry Gains
Joe Louis-Jersey Joe Walcott
Sonny Liston-George Foreman
Joe Frazier-Ken Norton
Joe Frazier-Jimmy Young
Muhammad Ali-Larry Holmes
Jerry Quarry-Ken Norton
Ken Norton-Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson-Greg Page
Jeffries and Fitzsimmons sparred regularly when Jeff was training for the second Corbett fight in 1903. Fitz arrived late at camp (he had gotten married), but they sparred together off-and-on for a few weeks.
Mr E wrote:I don't think Foreman was Liston's "sparring partner" in the classic sense-- I think rather they were stablemates who occassionally sparred.
Famous sparring sessions I would love to have seen:
Jim Corbett-Jim Jeffries
Jack Johnson-Gunboat Smith
Jack Johnson-Sam McVey
Jack Dempsey-George Godfrey
Jack Dempsey-Larry Gains
Joe Louis-Jersey Joe Walcott
Sonny Liston-George Foreman
Joe Frazier-Ken Norton
Joe Frazier-Jimmy Young
Muhammad Ali-Larry Holmes
Jerry Quarry-Ken Norton
Ken Norton-Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson-Greg Page
Jeffries and Fitzsimmons sparred regularly when Jeff was training for the second Corbett fight in 1903. Fitz arrived late at camp (he had gotten married), but they sparred together off-and-on for a few weeks.
Yes! Also, there were numerous (not just one) Dempsey-Greb sparring sessions, which would be fun to see.
Did Joe Frazier ever spar with Duane Bobick or did he just train him for a while?
raylawpc wrote:It doesn't to me. From the cast of the shadows, it looks like Liston and Foreman were under the same light source.
Often boxers warm-up by shadow boxing in the ring before their workouts. Sometimes you will face off with another boxer, within a safe distance, and shadow box off of their moves. I did it with heavyweights when I was a bantam. Not sparring, just "moving". That's what this picture was. And by the way, in 1967, I was sitting on the ring apron when Liston sparred with Wayne Heath at the Main Street Gym in Los Angeles. What a sight. Liston deflated Heath with thudding hook to the body. Heath took a knee, and then crapped in his white Everlast boxing trunks. True story!
-Rick Farris
Yeah, we always had two or three guys shadow boxing in the ring when workouts started, and before we began sparring.
Poor Wayne Heath. I knew him in Oklahoma City. He was a pretty good guy but somewhat egotistical. He would be mortified to know you've made him famous on the internet as the guy who crapped his trunks sparring against Sonny Liston!
Here are a couple of quotes from George Foreman's autobiography BY GEORGE(1996).
"Sonny and I sparred constantly which was about the best training I could have had.
He stood his ground and refused to submit to my superior strength and two inch height advantage".(page 68).
"The toughest jab I ever faced was Sonny Liston's while we sparred.
Muhammad Ali also had a great one that was hard to counter because it was so quick".(p.244)
