Head injury specialist reviews "The Phantom Punch"

[BoxBuzz]

"Phantom punch" Film reviewed by forensic specialists and head injury specialists have determined it highly likely that just such an occurence as the so called "Phantom punch" would effect the brain in a far greater manner than the quickness and akwardness of that moment might suggest.

This was shown and discussed on Good Morning America yesterday morning by a head injury specialist in conjunction with Natasha's Richardson's fatal skiing accident. I have not seen the documented data, but this reflects an opinion that I have shared on this forum in the past. The broad strokes of this relate to the quickness, cross motions of objects, point of strike on the skull (in the case of Ali/Liston) and it's likely outcome for the gray matter contained within the skull structure. ( I am not a neurologist but I am an head injury specialist).

They used the Ali/Liston film as an example of an occasion where due to the point of strike the gray matter would be unusually affected by the physics of the event. Due to the design of the skull, brain tissues do much better with straght forward impacts vs side impacts especially when combined with any twisting or turning of the skull casing at time of impact.

Of Course Natasha experienced no "cross motion" as the ground on the beginners slope was not in motion) but she instinctively turned to avoid the impact and this may have been a fatal move on her part.

At any rate, I guess I have to ask, do you believe the work of the forensic and head injury specialists on this matter were simply another attempt to further the great conspiracy?

Vote early and often!

[Rick Farris]

"Phantom punch" Film reviewed by forensic specialists and head injury specialists have determined it highly likely that just such an occurence as the so called "Phantom punch" would effect the brain in a far greater manner than the quickness and akwardness of that moment might suggest.

This was shown and discussed on Good Morning America yesterday morning by a head injury specialist in conjunction with Natasha's Richardson's fatal skiing accident. I have not seen the documented data, but this reflects an opinion that I have shared on this forum in the past. The broad strokes of this relate to the quickness, cross motions of objects, point of strike on the skull (in the case of Ali/Liston) and it's likely outcome for the gray matter contained within the skull structure. ( I am not a neurologist but I am an head injury specialist).

They used the Ali/Liston film as an example of an occasion where due to the point of strike the gray matter would be unusually affected by the physics of the event. Due to the design of the skull, brain tissues do much better with straght forward impacts vs side impacts especially when combined with any twisting or turning of the skull casing at time of impact.

Of Course Natasha experienced no "cross motion" as the ground on the beginners slope was not in motion) but she instinctively turned to avoid the impact and this may have been a fatal move on her part.

At any rate, I guess I have to ask, do you believe the work of the forensic and head injury specialists on this matter were simply another attempt to further the great conspiracy?

Vote early and often!

Rob . . . I'm sure people will try to reinvent a reason validating how Ali really KOed Liston, however, those medical experts should realize that an unconcious boxer does not reach his arms out to soften the impact of hitting the canvas. The body falls loose & limp. Liston was not unconcious, at best, stung by the blow which was launched from a body moving in reverse. Their was no body weight behind the blow (which defintitly landed). Liston attempted to wait out the ten count, but a confused Jersey Joe Walcott never picked up the count from the timekeeper. Even Liston could count ten, and after carefully waiting until a little extra time had elapsed, climbed to his feet to find himself still in a fight. Of course, the bout was soon stopped and Ali awarded the KO. Let's let the restless spirit of Sonny Liston relax and put this to bed in it's proper place . . . Liston took an early exit on purpose. No knockout, only in the books where it shall remain.

-Rick Farris+

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

"Phantom punch" Film reviewed by forensic specialists and head injury specialists have determined it highly likely that just such an occurence as the so called "Phantom punch" would effect the brain in a far greater manner than the quickness and akwardness of that moment might suggest.

This was shown and discussed on Good Morning America yesterday morning by a head injury specialist in conjunction with Natasha's Richardson's fatal skiing accident.

- While great progress has been made in understanding the nature of head injuries, the media program was just a feel good promotional moment for some eggheads to sound off with their 15 min of fame on their application of junk science to the Liston/Ali rematch.

Anyone with a hint of coordination can duplicate Ali's punch, leaping backwards as an off balance right hand is flashed. Punch has zero power. What it had was surprise and some snap that Ali puts in most of his punches which is where he got what power he possessed, the snap.

I like the punch because it is without a doubt one of the fastest punches ever, so quick it barely registers. It's also a natural, reflexive punch that only a one off type of talent could come up with in the moment. IF a legit KO, most accept that Liston was probably 36-37 yrs old for the fight, so he got "old" overnight.

I see it most likely that he was going through the motions of putting on a heroic effort as he awaited for the first punch he could flop on. Nobody can ever know the full truth of the story, but the weight of evidence points to a dive. Anyway, with Walcott butchering his role as the ref, it wasn't a credible fight and should've been ruled an NC or Ali DQed for fighting with Walcott, attempting to kick Liston in the head, and refusing to go to the neutral corner.

[BoxBuzz]

I agree that Liston "cooperated" to some degree with that moment....but I happen to think he was TRULY stung though perhaps not completely unconcious. I also feel he did not have the heart to take the inevitable beating that was coming his way. So this moment may have made it easy for him not to give his best recuperative effort.

But the point that the head injury specialist was making, is that under certain circumstances it don't take much to ring our noggin's bell. And on occasion, timed just right, and impacted just right understated moments can be fatal, with little energy spent in accomplishing the deed.

Natasha Richardson was on the BEGINNERS SLOPE.. at what was described as a LEISURELY PACE simply fell on the snow without a helmet....AND IT WAS FATAL. This was not a neck injury it was purely brain trauma. And NOT the aggravation of an already existing condition.

Moral of the story....SHIT HAPPENS and it may have happened to Liston in a more serious manner than many of us may have assumed. In other words his bell may have been more profoundly rung than most people imagine, since to the naked eye it does not appear to be of high impact. (Though the impact is absolutely viewable and definable as Listons head is sent for a millisecond into a clearly concussive event.)

[Goodnight, Irene]

I find it laughable to entertain the KO was legitimate. Gimme a break. Look at both men's careers, instead of some abstract report.

It was utter bullshit.

[Robinson]

Two different circumstances. One killed a woman. The other ruined a
reputation.

The diffence being, one was very real. The other...well was real to those
who believe.

Anchor punch...indeed.

[Rick Farris]

I agree that Liston "cooperated" to some degree with that moment....but I happen to think he was TRULY stung though perhaps not completely unconcious. I also feel he did not have the heart to take the inevitable beating that was coming his way. So this moment may have made it easy for him not to give his best recuperative effort.

But the point that the head injury specialist was making, is that under certain circumstances it don't take much to ring our noggin's bell. And on occasion, timed just right, and impacted just right understated moments can be fatal, with little energy spent in accomplishing the deed.

Natasha Richardson was on the BEGINNERS SLOPE.. at what was described as a LEISURELY PACE simply fell on the snow without a helmet....AND IT WAS FATAL. This was not a neck injury it was purely brain trauma. And NOT the aggravation of an already existing condition.

Moral of the story....SHIT HAPPENS and it may have happened to Liston in a more serious manner than many of us may have assumed. In other words his bell may have been more profoundly rung than most people imagine, since to the naked eye it does not appear to be of high impact. (Though the impact is absolutely viewable and definable as Listons head is sent for a millisecond into a clearly concussive event.)

Many years ago, I spoke with a heavyweight boxer whom I befriended when I was a kid. His name was Amos "Big Train" Lincoln, and he fought out of Portland, but saw a lot of action in Los Angeles rings. Lincoln not only fought Liston twice at the end of Sonny's career, but was a sparring partner for Liston while training for both bouts with Cassius Clay. Here is the bottom line, Sonney Liston didn't train hard for the first match becasue he didn't respect Clay. However, for the second bout, Liston didn't do much at all, and Lincoln said that those close to the champ were encouraged to "bet whatever they could, on Liston to lose.

Sonny was not desperate to win back a title that brought him nothing but problems. His goal was to cash out as best he could, and he did. Muhammad Ali was a brilliant young prospect and in great shape. The only pain Ali would have laid on Liston would have come from Liston's lack of training. Ali cracked good with that right hand when he got it off right, however, he did not with the punch he hit Sonny with. Ali's flee-flicker left jab which was more bothersome than powerful, carried more pop than the right hand that caught Sonny.

No loss of conciousness, not even for a micro-second. Sonny QUIT! And, what better time than in the first minute?

Lot's of serious KO's could be examined, why a "fixed fight"? Just more excuses to suggest Ali was better than he was. Don't get me wrong, he was great for a variety of reasons, most related to his courage for not quitting when he was taking a beating. His body and physical conditioning were excellent, his speed as fast as anybody, but his punching power was as weak as any heavyweight to ever lace up a glove, his boxing skills minimal. He was a light hitting catcher, the only reason he had trouble with Ken Norton.

No cut on Ali, but lets not credit him for a KO he didn't score or neurological damage that did not exist.

-Rick Farris

[Robinson]

Thanks for that Rick.

You know those opinions of yours, will get you in trouble here with
some.

[BoxBuzz]

I don't have an agenda. But I don't ignore information. The head injury specialist and forensic expert have a legitimate point in the case of Natasha Richardson, and they used this match to help make it. For those who simply have their minds made up and will accept no further data it is of no consequence of course..... it was a fix....or it was a genuine moment.... either one depending on your already decided viewpoint. For those with open minds this is simply more data to consider. In this case the data is physics interpreted by some pretty educated folks.

If you can't be moved on any subject regardless of info...you just might want to reflect on why that might be.

[observer1]

i was just watching a docu about ali, 'the laws of muhammed ali' and it showed the shot. it definitely landed. henry cooper gave the opinion than liston was just done from their first meeting and didnt want anything to do with ali, a couple of other trainers offered that they thought the punch landed on the temple and stunned liston.

i can only comment on what i saw, but i didnt get the impression it was a big enough blow to stop liston, but i didnt get hit with it. things look alot different on film.

Pretty much agree mate

[Collins2000]

henry cooper gave the opinion than liston was just done from their first meeting and didnt want anything to do with ali

Our 'Enry was talking sense there.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I don't have an agenda. But I don't ignore information. The head injury specialist and forensic expert have a legitimate point in the case of Natasha Richardson, and they used this match to help make it. For those who simply have their minds made up and will accept no further data it is of no consequence of course..... it was a fix....or it was a genuine moment.... either one depending on your already decided viewpoint. For those with open minds this is simply more data to consider. In this case the data is physics interpreted by some pretty educated folks.

If you can't be moved on any subject regardless of info...you just might want to reflect on why that might be.

Seems you're doing a pretty good job of ignoring...

A) Liston's battle-hardened chin, which never, before or again, failed him so peculiarly.

B) Ali's long-demonstrated relative lack of punching power, a career-long problem for him.

C) Liston's atrocious acting on the canvas.

[Robinson]

As for these forensic experts. They are no doubt the same academics that
are fetured on shows that test various martial arts strikes, etc..

you know the ones....where being kicked by Bas Rutten is like being hit
by a car at 100kph or being slammed by Randy Couture is like falling from
a 3 story building with a bag of cement on your chest.

They are experts on after the fact and can never really quantify what
happens inside the arena. They over look so many aspects that they
as academics or experts can not come to terms with.

Even linking the ladies death to the Phantom Punch is really thin and
in some ways insulting to the dead and her family.

[Trainer Monkey]

"Phantom punch" Film reviewed by forensic specialists and head injury specialists have determined it highly likely that just such an occurence as the so called "Phantom punch" would effect the brain in a far greater manner than the quickness and akwardness of that moment might suggest.

This was shown and discussed on Good Morning America yesterday morning by a head injury specialist in conjunction with Natasha's Richardson's fatal skiing accident. I have not seen the documented data, but this reflects an opinion that I have shared on this forum in the past. The broad strokes of this relate to the quickness, cross motions of objects, point of strike on the skull (in the case of Ali/Liston) and it's likely outcome for the gray matter contained within the skull structure. ( I am not a neurologist but I am an head injury specialist).

They used the Ali/Liston film as an example of an occasion where due to the point of strike the gray matter would be unusually affected by the physics of the event. Due to the design of the skull, brain tissues do much better with straght forward impacts vs side impacts especially when combined with any twisting or turning of the skull casing at time of impact.

Of Course Natasha experienced no "cross motion" as the ground on the beginners slope was not in motion) but she instinctively turned to avoid the impact and this may have been a fatal move on her part.

At any rate, I guess I have to ask, do you believe the work of the forensic and head injury specialists on this matter were simply another attempt to further the great conspiracy?

Vote early and often!

Ive watched it dozens of times. The only part that lends credence to the idea that it was a "Phantom punch" is that it po'ed Ali,and Ali stood over him screaming "get up and fight"
Ali had incredibly deceptive power,if you watch his fights from that era,he just decided he was bored with people,and turn them off. He was mad because he wanted to torment Liston more then that.In the 60's you could tell if he liked you,because he'd end the fight by the 4th round so you didnt take too much punishment. In the 70's he had to work for a living,but in the 60's he just had his way.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Ali had incredibly deceptive power,if you watch his fights from that era,he just decided he was bored with people,and turn them off. He was mad because he wanted to torment Liston more then that.In the 60's you could tell if he liked you,because he'd end the fight by the 4th round so you didnt take too much punishment.

- Ali must've had a white hot hatred of Sheriff Hunsaker, Fleeman, Duke Sabedong, Alonzo Johnson, Alex Miteff, Besmanoff, Daniels, Lavorante, Doug Jones, Cooper, Liston, Patterson, Chuvalo, Mildenberberger, Terrell, and Folley.

Looks like he liked Jimmy Robinson the best of all. Lucky Jimmy.

[Trainer Monkey]

Ali had incredibly deceptive power,if you watch his fights from that era,he just decided he was bored with people,and turn them off. He was mad because he wanted to torment Liston more then that.In the 60's you could tell if he liked you,because he'd end the fight by the 4th round so you didnt take too much punishment.

- Ali must've had a white hot hatred of Sheriff Hunsaker, Fleeman, Duke Sabedong, Alonzo Johnson, Alex Miteff, Besmanoff, Daniels, Lavorante, Doug Jones, Cooper, Liston, Patterson, Chuvalo, Mildenberberger, Terrell, and Folley.

Looks like he liked Jimmy Robinson the best of all. Lucky Jimmy.

Watch the Folley fight,he decides he's bored with him,and turns him off.
And yes he hated Pattersons guts,he could have ended that fight whenever he felt like it

[Rick Farris]

Ali had incredibly deceptive power,if you watch his fights from that era,he just decided he was bored with people,and turn them off. He was mad because he wanted to torment Liston more then that.In the 60's you could tell if he liked you,because he'd end the fight by the 4th round so you didnt take too much punishment.

- Ali must've had a white hot hatred of Sheriff Hunsaker, Fleeman, Duke Sabedong, Alonzo Johnson, Alex Miteff, Besmanoff, Daniels, Lavorante, Doug Jones, Cooper, Liston, Patterson, Chuvalo, Mildenberberger, Terrell, and Folley.

Looks like he liked Jimmy Robinson the best of all. Lucky Jimmy.

Watch the Folley fight,he decides he's bored with him,and turns him off.
And yes he hated Pattersons guts,he could have ended that fight whenever he felt like it

Kicking a "Dead Horse" . . .

Very good point. I would like you to watch that fight very closely. You will see that Zora Folley (who never would have had a chance with any version of Ali), took the easy way out, as well. Look at the acting. Guys, if you are boxers or have been around real boxers, you know that "how" a man falls tells a story. If you fought, you know when it's real and when it's not. Folley, who surely would have been counted out in due course, fell like a dummy, pretended to be sleeping and then when the count was over, jumped to his feet with no loss of balance, disorientation, nothing. It doesn't work that way.

And to Rob I ask . . . Why are you kicking a dead horse, one that never made it out of the gate? No need to stir up dust here, no need to reinvent the wheel, make it better. Muhammad Ali could not KO or even hurt Kenny Norton. I've known Ken since 1969. He never could take a solid punch, the only reason he dominated Ali so easily. Ken may have scored a KO over a past prime Jerry Quarry. But a couple years earlier, I watched Jerry flatten Kenny at the Main Street Gym. Ali couldn't hurt a guy with a glass chin, and he did land on Norton.

Rob, please don't suggest I have "issues" relating to an open mind. The problem is you waste your mind on things that are no mystery to those in boxing. By the way, Sonny Liston had a chin of granite. However, his heart was only in boxing as deep as how it might satisfy his simple needs, gambling money, booze, women. He was not a drug addict and was terrified of needles. His poison was double vodka on the rocks. Not in any fight, including his last with Leotis Martin, was Sonny's chin a factor in his loosing. It was always a matter of choice.

Ali was the exception, a guy who was going to win regardless. Everybody knew it, including Liston. Although under-trained for the first fight, Liston attempted to take Clay out early. Then he started to tire, and get busted up, and "quit" with a perfectly healthy left shoulder he claimed was dislocated. Sonny cashed in his chips early. Sonny was a very simple man. Why take a whipping? He took his shot, failed and didn't need further convincing that it wasn't going to be his night. He knew it was never going to be his night against Clay.

I spoke in great detail regarding Sonny Liston with a man who worked with him, the late Johnny Tocco of Las Vegas. What an interesting charactor, the former heavyweight champ.

Today, in a Las Vegas cemetary, one located below the fight path of McCarron Airport, is the grave of Liston. A small plaque at the head of the grave reads . . .

Charles "Sonny" Liston
-A Man-

That's all. No dates, nothing else. Simple.

Rather than focus on possible cerebral malfunction resulting from an Ali "bitch slap", in this case, why not look more toward the "mental health" of the individuals involved, and the reality of survival beyond what goes on in the ring. Maybe Sonny was smarter than people credit him for.


-Rick Farris

[BoxBuzz]

Rick, what you say rings true to me. However my guess is that we part ways (perhaps only slightly) in that I have no trouble imagining that all of these factors may be somewhat evident in this story. "Slight of hand" is all about speed and deception....which on occasion can be deceptively powerful. I choose those words carefully, and believe them to be true, in this case on several levels. That moment has enigma written all over it.

[Goodnight, Irene]

He hit countless opponents with countless punches they couldn't see coming.

Why didn't anyone else go, the way Liston went?

[Robinson]

Its also not so much a case of punches being so fast that people
dont see them coming. Often it is that they can not react to them
in time.

You know its coming, but it happens. That is the speed an Ali has.
The men he fought were trained athletes, standing in front of him,
not blind bums of the street. He threw they got hit. But I am pretty
sure Liston saw that punch coming...hard hitting or not his reaction is
far from understandable.

[Trainer Monkey]

Its also not so much a case of punches being so fast that people
dont see them coming. Often it is that they can not react to them
in time.

You know its coming, but it happens. That is the speed an Ali has.
The men he fought were trained athletes, standing in front of him,
not blind bums of the street. He threw they got hit. But I am pretty
sure Liston saw that punch coming...hard hitting or not his reaction is
far from understandable.

Ive had it happen to me a couple of times,I knew what was coming,but I just wasnt fast enough to block it in time,and I think I busted the plywood under the ring I hit it so hard.Acceleration=Force on point of impact,Impact at proper spot on the human head=nighty night time. Ali was a freak of nature,a combination of power,pinpoint control,and speed.I think thats why Frazier was so tough for him,Frazier moved in a way that did not allow Ali to target the point of the jaw he wanted.Against everyone else he could target shot at will.Wepner was similar in a different way,Wepner was such an awkward fighter,you never knew what in the hell he'd do,or where he'd move his head to. Ali did opperate on timing,and Wepner was so bad,Ali couldnt time him.Wepner was an arythmic fighter,because he wasnt trained right,but it probably got him through the Ali fight.
Old saying,"If its stupid,and it works,it isnt stupid"
As far as pure ability,it should have been done by the second round,but Wepner threw Ali off his game.

[BoxBuzz]

He hit countless opponents with countless punches they couldn't see coming.

Why didn't anyone else go, the way Liston went?

Thanks GI, you don't have to pitch these softballs for me to answer. But on the off chance that this is actually a serious question I'll answer by keeping in the spirit of the original post. Literally thousands of people have fallen on the snow/ice, going a leisurely pace on the bunny slopes with no problems. But Natasha Richardson is dead as a result of the same routine and usually harmless action. If your point is that Ali had no power and Liston had a granite chin then the possibility exists that this is simply an exaggerated outcome of the same outside chances at work. (The less credence you give to either of these factors the less surprising such an outcome is I suppose). Liston's disorientation COULD have been a result of a very unique set of circumstances coming together.

Your very question is the entire point. But you knew that right?

[Goodnight, Irene]

I don't think you think it's possible Liston was bowled over by the punch. I think you think it's what actually happened.

Such a person can claim, "open-mindedness" all they like, but realities beyond that fight of both men's careers, again & again & again, suggest the, "result" stinks to the Heavens. Whatever floats an Ali admirer's boat, but I guarantee any other, less-beloved fighter wouldn't get half the benefit of the doubt of that ludicrous, "KO."

[BoxBuzz]

I don't think you think it's possible Liston was bowled over by the punch. I think you think it's what actually happened.

Such a person can claim, "open-mindedness" all they like, but realities beyond that fight of both men's careers, again & again & again, suggest the, "result" stinks to the Heavens. Whatever floats an Ali admirer's boat, but I guarantee any other, less-beloved fighter wouldn't get half the benefit of the doubt of that ludicrous, "KO."

If in this response you are counting yourself as hopelessly bias in the other direction, I'm at peace with your contribution.

My theory is only a guess as anyone's would be. But here is my best guess (if that's what your asking for) I think Liston's bell was rung in a manner that got his attention, and combined with his psyche at the time he exploited the moment (with absolutely no premeditation) to take advantage of perhaps not having to absorb what was quickly unfolding in his personal estimation to be an inevitable beating. I agree that it speaks much to his mental and emotional state at the time. This bit of forensic "theory" from these "experts" just makes Liston's moment a little more understandable to some of us. Perhaps he did experience a true bell ringing, which in turn makes his actions and ultimate decision a little less of a completely inexplicable moment. I have a hard time believing that Liston was a complete coward or a crook and simply took a dive. That he was bit phased in the noggin, and followed it up with some poor judgment just seems more plausible to me.

In yesterday's match Gomez had a similar moment of truth vs Vitali....he ALMOST bailed based on a punch (a bit later in the bout than Liston but Gomez went in stronger mentally)........he then seemed to think better of it (the ghost of Liston maybe?) and decided to take further punishment. He might have been better off just calling it a day a bit earlier.

Liston and Ali are of course legends now....but they were a bit more human at that moment. I think that was simply a human experiential moment and little to do with premeditation or conspiracy of any kind. You can make the same case for Liston as you can the Stock Market....."Past Performance may have little if any relevance on future performance. (Just ask any GM stock holder).

[Collins2000]

...The "result" stinks to the Heavens.

It sure does. And you can thank Liston for that. He didn't fancy another arse kicking and bailed out as soon as he could.

Yet for you Irene, it seems to be Ali's fault. As usual.