60s Title Defenses vs Modern Era Title Defenses

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

current eras are probably never realized as being
great. specific fights: yes, but eras: no. even in the
seventies' forums, had there been any, probably
lots of ali bashers and frazier critics would have
been around. claiming that the louis and marciano
time was way better. that is the nature of human
memory.

reminds of teachers. we definitely have made some
progress in human knowledge over the last 2.ooo
years, yet teachers throughout this time claim that
pupils get dumber and dumber each year ... same
phenomenon.

- Big difference in the vast accumulated records of knowledge and the day to day intelligence and nature of the average human. If humans were as smart in accumulated knowledge as they like to think, there would be no wars, famines, crime, and so on.

In the example you use about teachers, they are using the results of standardized tests which show the average student has less ability in math, English and other traditional areas of learning deemed important. However, most kid's today have much greater knowledge of computers and gadget technology, and seeing as modern cultures place little value on knowing Attilla the Hun from Gengis Khan, from Napoleon from Idi Amin, what we get with today's kids has been shaped by their environment just as sure as a young pygmy living in the forest is shaped by his environment.

At any rate, true enough that the JC Gomez dissected by Vitali last night will get no credit by conventional naysayers any more than will Vitali or any of today's heavies. One only need to look at Nat Fleischer's list of ten greatest heavies and read his articles just before his death in 1970 to understand where that type of thinking gets traction.

[man]

with teachers i guess they simply do not get that
the relevance of knowledge is shifting and that it
tells more about their development than the one
of the kids if they disregard them in each and
every generation.

with boxing i think it has to do with people and
the loss of youth as well. former times were always
better since people were simply ... younger. and i
remember tyson's prime and what is now the list
of his achievements looked then like a lack of
reasonable opponents.

to me right now seems quite exciting. the klitschkos
are in my book within the top twenty of all times. i
do not see vitali lose against frazier or norton. i
think his physique would bring trouble to marciano.
against prime foreman i do not know. i guess vitali
is equally strong and his defense is better, but if
foreman could lend something big i do not know
how vitali would handle that. against a prime ali
nobody can look great and i have no idea on that
fight. i would see vitali loose against prime jack
johnson and loose a decision against prime louis.
but all these are all time greats. and i truly believe
that against each and everyone of them you would
not have the feeling that vitali does not play in their
league ...

exciting days. if anything with haye could happen
within the time both brothers are active: great hw
weight times ahead of us ...

[dempseyfire]

It has nothing to do with age. I believe the 122-130 era of the past 10-15 years (with Barrera,Morales,Marquez,Pacquao etc.) was a great era with some all-time great fighters. Pacquao, especially with a win over Hatton, will cement himself as a top 20 all-time PFP fighter, and he's still fighting.

The depth of all weight classes above 147 in boxing has severely declined. Boxing as a whole has become much more marginalized (and not just in the U.S., but in Europe as well), leading to a shallower pool which ultimately produces less great fighters. This is a sad but solid fact that any fan of boxing should realize when viewing the sport in its proper historical framework. The positive is that boxing has not suffered such declines in Latin American and South-East Asian countries, which produces fighters mainly from 108-135, and those weight classes still have some outstanding fighters.

The heavyweight division has suffered the most. All one has to do is look at the ages of the guys the Klitschkos are fighting . . Gomez 35 (probably older),Thompson 36, Brewster 34, Austin 35, Rahman 36, even Wladimir is about to turn 33. Vitali himself is approaching 38 . . .the lack of young talent being able to cement a foothold in a division full of guys whose prime was in the late 1990s shows how the talent drop-off which really began 40 years ago has vastly accelerated in the past 10 years. And the nationalistic argument is stupid . . .I would have LOVED for the Eastern-Euro guys like Lyakovich, DImitrenko,Ibragimov, and Valuev to have blown through past-it versions of Austin,Bean,Ruiz,Briggs and usher in a better era of heavyweight prize-fighting. But it didn't happen. Now even the Eastern-Euro guys who arrived at the earlier part of this century are getting up there in age, and what is left is the Minor Leagues.

[man]

in a way i tend to agree, but then again, which time
has really seen a broad pool of talents? when was a
time of more than two or three greats? haye might
come up now and he is 28. i think we are in a time
where we have some real good guys but they are
outweighed by plenty of strange appearances as
well. giant weak valuev, aging holyfield, golota,
briggs and you can continue the list with brewster,
maskaev, ibragimov and so forth. there is a lot of
people who in one way or the other disappointed
and if it was just for being injured like chagaev.
the division is less in weak in my eyes but so much
clustered with weird disappointments. i think this is
the truly unique situation we are in. maybe it has to
do with more and different media: many guys are
hyped long before they deliver and then are not able
to catch up with expectations.

i think there are at the moment more than convincing
champions and it might take just one exciting matchup
with a rematch or something of that kind to make the
division feel "exciting" ...

[The Great John L]

The depth of all weight classes above 147 in boxing has severely declined. Boxing as a whole has become much more marginalized (and not just in the U.S., but in Europe as well), leading to a shallower pool which ultimately produces less great fighters. This is a sad but solid fact that any fan of boxing should realize when viewing the sport in its proper historical framework. The positive is that boxing has not suffered such declines in Latin American and South-East Asian countries, which produces fighters mainly from 108-135, and those weight classes still have some outstanding fighters.

This all sounds pretty familiar.

Of course, I think the talent has declined in all weight classes, not just the higher classes, although I agree it probably hasn't fallen as far in the lighter weights.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Of course, I think the talent has declined in all weight classes, not just the higher classes, although I agree it probably hasn't fallen as far in the lighter weights.

- Doubt it's the talent that's fallen at the top, it's the competitive base that a fighter had to prove himself against in 40-50 fights before getting a title shot that is lacking. Back then a loss wasn't looked down upon as long as the fighter was making compelling fights and building a following.

Here's the current Ring top 10 heavies. Be happy to match these guys against any era list, but specifically Ali's 1964 year of the Liston upset and 1967 before his strippage:

#1. Wladimir Klitschko
Country: Ukraine
Record: 52-3-0 (46 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #1 | Last Week: #1 | Weeks On List: 199
Titles: WBO, IBF
#
2. Vitali Klitschko
Country: Ukraine
Record: 36-2-0 (35 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #2 | Last Week: #2 | Weeks On List: 23
Titles: WBC
#
3. Ruslan Chagaev
Country: Germany
Record: 25-0-1 (17 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #3 | Last Week: #3 | Weeks On List: 122
#
4. Alexander Povetkin
Country: Russia
Record: 16-0-0 (12 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #4 | Last Week: #4 | Weeks On List: 73
#
5. Nicolay Valuev
Country: Russia
Record: 50-1-0 (34 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #5 | Last Week: #5 | Weeks On List: 170
Titles: WBA
#
6. Sultan Ibragimov
Country: Russia
Record: 22-1-1 (17 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #6 | Last Week: #6 | Weeks On List: 94
#
7. Samuel Peter
Country: Nigeria
Record: 30-2-0 (23 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #7 | Last Week: #7 | Weeks On List: 202
#
8. Oleg Maskaev
Country: Russia
Record: 35-6-0 (26 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #8 | Last Week: #8 | Weeks On List: 136
#
9. Juan Carlos Gomez
Country: Cuba
Record: 44-1-0 (35 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #9 | Last Week: #9 | Weeks On List: 25
#
10. Alexander Dimitrenko
Country: Ukraine
Record: 29-0-0 (19 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #10 | Last Week: #10 | Weeks On List: 18

[The Great John L]

They don't match well vs 70's era, but I do agree that the early 60's were not exactly a good example of top HW talent, although there was great deal more depth of talent than there is now due to the much greater number of fighters.

In addition to the dearth or boxers in general, most current fighters quit improving due to the overly cautious nature of match making. As you noted, there are fewer fights, and it seems that once a fighter, especially a HW is any where near a ranking in any one of the organizations they seem to, in general, evade any real challenges. You can't improve if you don't engage fighters with a variety of styles, and sparring as a substitute for actual fights isn't even remotely adequate.

Clearly the Klitschkos are the top guys now, and they are certainly very good fighters who could do well in any era. Nobody else in the current HW division has any real career accomplishments.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Clearly the Klitschkos are the top guys now, and they are certainly very good fighters who could do well in any era. Nobody else in the current HW division has any real career accomplishments.

- Disagree. Chagaev and Valuev have taken The Don King designed Larry Holmes career path route.

Their paper accomplishments similar to that of Holmes at the same phase of their careers save Niko's loss to the champion in recess.

1980-10-02 211½ Muhammad Ali 217½ 56-3-0
1980-07-07 214¼ Scott LeDoux 226 26-8-4
1980-03-31 211 Leroy Jones 254½ 24-0-1
1980-02-03 213½ Lorenzo Zanon 215 25-4-2
1979-09-28 210 Earnie Shavers 211 59-7-1
1979-06-22 215 Mike Weaver 202 19-8-0
1979-03-23 214 Ossie Ocasio 207 13-0-0
1978-11-10 214½ Alfredo Evangelista 208¼ 23-2-1

Niko:

2008-12-20 310¾ Evander Holyfield 214¼ 42-9-2
2008-08-30 317¾ John Ruiz 239 43-7-1
2008-02-16 321¾ Serguei Lyakhovich 251 23-2-0
2007-09-29 320¾ Jean Francois Bergeron 229½ 27-0-0
2007-04-14 319 Ruslan Chagaev 228¼ 22-0-1
2007-01-20 322¼ Jameel McCline 268¼ 38-6-3
2006-10-07 328 Monte Barrett 222½ 31-4-0
2006-06-03 320¾ Owen Beck 242½ 25-2-0

Ruslan:

2009-02-07 227 Carl Davis Drumond 229 26-0-0
2008-01-19 229¼ Matt Skelton 254¾ 21-1-0

Let the shouts of heresy shake the rafters........ 8)

[The Great John L]

Oi Vey...

[dempseyfire]

Do we have a block option here at boxrec?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Do we have a block option here at boxrec?

We certainly do. Start with User Control Panel

[dempseyfire]

Do we have a block option here at boxrec?

We certainly do. Start with User Control Panel

Thank you Goodnight!

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Do we have a block option here at boxrec?

- You've always had the block head option.

[Collins2000]

Do we have a block option here at boxrec?

- You've always had the block head option.

Would that be the option where people are supposed to think your sh*t is clever and interesting?




Come back Davey. All is forgiven!