Classic American West Coast Boxing

[iskigoe]

Roger,


You will enjoy the book. The cover is great. Lots, of pic,s. When you are done you will Know langford.
Clay the Author has an on-line rare boxing box web-site, and he his a real good guy. Any time he doesnt have something
Im looking for, he tells me where to get it, say's alot about a guy.

ki

[dagosd2000]

According to my aunt Hype's daughter, she told me at on time Mizner was so popular in NY. the papers followed him
around just to the hear what he would say. 20 years after the quake in san francisco they had a reunion of sorts for people who lived through the quake. Hype and Mizner both went. my aunt said Hype entered a hotel room and there he saw Mizner sitting in a large arm chair surrouned by some of the most famous writers of their time, and they were all entranced as he told them stories.

Jack Kearns gives great credit to Mizner for teaching the art of the deal.

ki

If I had to choose to ride in a Time Machine,the turn into the 20th century sounds like a good get off spot.

[dagosd2000]

Roger,


You will enjoy the book. The cover is great. Lots, of pic,s. When you are done you will Know langford.
Clay the Author has an on-line rare boxing box web-site, and he his a real good guy. Any time he doesnt have something
Im looking for, he tells me where to get it, say's alot about a guy.

ki

He who empowers others,empowers himself.

Kevin,you got me goin'.

[iskigoe]

Your right. Hype hung out alot in a late night hot spot in Ny call Jacks, on any given night you might have at the same time Runyon, Jp morgan,Jack London, Al Jolson, Irving Berlin, George m Cohen, James Corbett, Kid Griffo, Jack Kearns, wc fields,John Barrymore, tad, and the list goes on and on. What a life, wish I was a fly on the wall.

[dagosd2000]

Your right. Hype hung out alot in a late night hot spot in Ny call Jacks, on any given night you might have at the same time Runyon, Jp morgan,Jack London, Al Jolson, Irving Berlin, George m Cohen, James Corbett, Kid Griffo, Jack Kearns, wc fields,John Barrymore, tad, and the list goes on and on. What a life, wish I was a fly on the wall.

Kevin
Those were the days when your word was your worth,there weren't a bunch of laws tellin'ya' what you could and couldn't do,and there was no Federal Raserve Bank that had a strangle hold on this country.

[dagosd2000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2FMyNJN4HI
"South" performed by Bennie Moten
Hey Kevin,here's a song of that Golden Age.

[iskigoe]

Roger,

Here's one for Hype, he is credited for the expresion "all washed up". The story goes: Hype had a good friend who was a doorman
for the Zigfield Follies. One day they had open auditions. In can a dirty old guy witha parot on his shoulder to do his act. They told him to go back and clean up before the would see him. He went back , but never returned. when asked why he did not return someone replyed they wash the act out of him. Upon hearing the story Hype wrote a column the next day and wrote how he was "all washed up"

ki

[iskigoe]

Roger,

Look up Cliff Edwards on you tube, a good friend of Hypes. Nick name Ukulele Ike. The voice of
JIMNEY CRICKET.

I have a thank you letter in my collection from Ed sullvian to Hype. I aske my aunt want he was thanking Hype for.
She said when Sullivan then a sportswriter was going to put varity show toghter, Hype did him the favor of getting
all his vaudville and stag friends to help. The range of friends Hype had is mind boogleing.

[dagosd2000]

Roger,

Here's one for Hype, he is credited for the expresion "all washed up". The story goes: Hype had a good friend who was a doorman
for the Zigfield Follies. One day they had open auditions. In can a dirty old guy witha parot on his shoulder to do his act. They told him to go back and clean up before the would see him. He went back , but never returned. when asked why he did not return someone replyed they wash the act out of him. Upon hearing the story Hype wrote a column the next day and wrote how he was "all washed up"

ki

Kevin
I teach history in school. I'm learnin' a little bit about the subject now.

[dagosd2000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY3Go5Ydeao

Sister Kate

Bunk Johnson

[dagosd2000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_WbQYdQty0

Riverside Blues

King Oliver

[Rick Farris]

Toxie Hall . . .

Any of you Chicago guys know of a heavyweight that fought out Chicago in the 50's, Toxie Hall. He was a Rocky Marciano sparring partner and also fought out of Al Weill's stable. He was Weill's personal body guard.


-Rick Farris

[dagosd2000]

Toxie Hall . . .

Any of you Chicago guys know of a heavyweight that fought out Chicago in the 50's, Toxie Hall. He was a Rocky Marciano sparring partner and also fought out of Al Weill's stable. He was Weill's personal body guard.


-Rick Farris

Rick
Heard of the name,but I was into Buzz Corbett and his Space Cadets around that time. There's got to be something God put between our ears to throw us back in time. I wish science would put more money into doin' cool things like that instead of inventing pills for depression. If I could go back to another time instead of this one once in a while,I wouldn't ever be depressed about anything. Shit,I shouldn't let the other guy take it upon himself to come up with a remedy like that. I should take the initiative. But hell,I still think 2 plus 2 equals 5!!

[Rick Farris]

Toxie Hall . . .

Any of you Chicago guys know of a heavyweight that fought out Chicago in the 50's, Toxie Hall. He was a Rocky Marciano sparring partner and also fought out of Al Weill's stable. He was Weill's personal body guard.


-Rick Farris

Rick
Heard of the name,but I was into Buzz Corbett and his Space Cadets around that time. There's got to be something God put between our ears to throw us back in time. I wish science would put more money into doin' cool things like that instead of inventing pills for depression. If I could go back to another time instead of this one once in a while,I wouldn't ever be depressed about anything. Shit,I shouldn't let the other guy take it upon himself to come up with a remedy like that. I should take the initiative. But hell,I still think 2 plus 2 equals 5!!

I know, Rog. I was still in diapers when Hall was working with the Rock. However, you never know who just might drop into this thread and tell us something that nobody else on earth knows. Sometimes we are the benefactors of such irony on this thread.

-Rick Farris

[dagosd2000]

Toxie Hall . . .

Any of you Chicago guys know of a heavyweight that fought out Chicago in the 50's, Toxie Hall. He was a Rocky Marciano sparring partner and also fought out of Al Weill's stable. He was Weill's personal body guard.


-Rick Farris

Rick
Heard of the name,but I was into Buzz Corbett and his Space Cadets around that time. There's got to be something God put between our ears to throw us back in time. I wish science would put more money into doin' cool things like that instead of inventing pills for depression. If I could go back to another time instead of this one once in a while,I wouldn't ever be depressed about anything. Shit,I shouldn't let the other guy take it upon himself to come up with a remedy like that. I should take the initiative. But hell,I still think 2 plus 2 equals 5!!

I know, Rog. I was still in diapers when Hall was working with the Rock. However, you never know who just might drop into this thread and tell us something that nobody else on earth knows. Sometimes we are the benefactors of such irony on this thread.

-Rick Farris

Hey Rick,and Kevin too
I think I mentioned this on another thread. Back in Chicago when I was a kid,my parents took us to Sam Giancana's house for a Sunday meal of spaghetti. I didn't know who Mooney was until much later.

Well there were a few Outfit guys there I guess because thinkin' back on it they were talkin' about crooked old time fights in the Windy City. Fights even before their time.

I heard someone say something about the Joe Gans/Terry McGovern bout. Something about how the gamblers had fixed it. Stuck in my mind for years. Much later I asked my father about it and he said it was the Jewish gamblers who controlled the betting on sports in Chicago at that time. Later it was guys like Rothstein and the Attels(the fighters) who got to the White Sox and turned their hoseiry black.

[Randyman]

If - By Rudyard Kipling

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:.
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings,
And never breathe a word about your loss:
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

[Randyman]

Maria Felix

Rog, this should be seen by the folks at the Autry museum. It should be hanging side by side with the other work that is being exhibited on Maria Felix. Thanks for posting it.

Randy

[Randyman]

The Men That Don't Fit In - Robert Service

There's a race of men that don't fit in,
A race that can't stay still;
So they break the hearts of kith and kin,
And they roam the world at will.
They range the field and they rove the flood,
And they climb the mountain's crest;
Theirs is the curse of the gypsy blood,
And they don't know how to rest.

If they just went straight they might go far;
They are strong and brave and true;
But they're always tired of the things that are,
And they want the strange and new.
They say: "Could I find my proper groove,
What a deep mark I would make!"
So they chop and change, and each fresh move
Is only a fresh mistake.

And each forgets, as he strips and runs
With a brilliant, fitful pace,
It's the steady, quiet, plodding ones
Who win in the lifelong race.
And each forgets that his youth has fled,
Forgets that his prime is past,
Till he stands one day, with a hope that's dead,
In the glare of the truth at last.

He has failed, he has failed; he has missed his chance;
He has just done things by half.
Life's been a jolly good joke on him,
And now is the time to laugh.
Ha, ha! He is one of the Legion Lost;
He was never meant to win;
He's a rolling stone, and it's bred in the bone;
He's a man who won't fit in.

[iskigoe]

Roger,

You can see Mcgovern-Gans on you tube and judge for yourself. I feel it was not a fake from what I saw on film. Gans from the film I see was a little slow to start, while McGovern was a Mad Dog right from jump street. I think Gans got caught quick. Im not saying McGovern was better. I think if they fought again Gans would change his style to protect the quick starting Terry. The reason Idont think it was a fake was Gans went down like he was shot. After that he fought like a drunk. Gans would have known how to throw a fight, and knew a bad fake could get him killed by the crowd. I also could see how with out replay one would think they were at a fake fight.

Hype was also friends with Rothstein, and knew Capone. Rothstein best man at his wedding was Herbert Baynard Swope, editor of the NY world and Hypes good friend. My aunt told me one night, Hype and his wife were out to dinner in NY. A man stopped at their table and said "hello Mr Igoe". He than walked across the room and backed into a phone booth. My grandmother asked who that was and why had he back in to the booth. Hype explained it was the ganster Legs Diamond, and it was not safe for him to enter with his back turned.

Even the gansters were better back then. They had Scar Face, and we get the Tephlone Don. LOL

[iskigoe]

My 20 Greatest • * *
By Hype Igoe
Intamstional Ntwi Servita Sports Wiit«

Article No. 19,

NEW YORK, Mar. 25.—He had come out of the West to knock
Terrible Terry McGovcrn kicking in two rounds, one of the shriek
surprises of all fistima. Young Corbett was a hitter and so was
Terry. When they locked horns in the second round at Hartford,
Connecticut on Thanksgiving Day, November 28, 1901, C o r b e t
brought Terry down with a left hook to the jaw, one which
seemed to split Terry apart.

That defeat actually broke the tiny Terrible One's heart. Never
was he the same again. All he asked for was a return bout.
Thece must have been some horrible mistake ," he told Sam Harris,
his manager, and Joe Humphreys, the man who worshipped
the ground upon which Terry troad.

They met again In San Francisco and Young Corbett astonished
staid old chroniclers like Bill Naughton, Bob Smythe, and Hi Baggerlry with his race-track plunging, while training.

He had a telephone installed in his gymnasium shed and he'd bet
1,000, 2,000 , yes, $5,000 to a race .

Corbett seemed to sense that he would take Terry a second
time. He worked faithfully enough, though he did cheat on his
roadwork. He used to come back weighing more than
when he hit the trail. Alex Greggins followed him on horseback,
at a distsnce, one day and an hour later found the chubby Cor-
bett asleep on a park bench beside a spring, with the big tin
dipper in his hands

He could fight He could punch.' He was one of the coolest tacticions.
in the ring ever I saw. He could wait all night If he had to.
He never hurred his punchs; and that's why they woe TNT depth
charges.

Terry trained at the Crofts Garden. Alamata, across the bay
from San Francisco No fellow ever worked harder indeed,
Naughton chided him about the training pace he was setting,
saying he should save some that energy for the real struggle .


They met at the Mechanic's Pavillion,
with Eddie Graney refereeing . Eddie liked to put on the swell
when an important bout was turned over to him . It long had
been his boast did not go between fighters ,it had been years since he had so much as had his finger on one

Eddie refereed in a tuxedo morning suit his shirt shone like
the headlight of a twentieth century flyer

"This is to be a 20-round fight, for the featherweight championship
of the world, protect yourself at all times, break at the order of the referee—may the best man. win—LETTERGO," bellowed leatherlunged Billy Jordan,
beloved announcer of that day.

And did they go. Nothing ever has been quite so desperate, so
savage. They mauled, they hauled and they flung punches as If they
had been cobblestones!. The sheer fury of it! Graney, the immaculate,
was caught in the whirlpool of flying fists, gnarling teeth,
whipping manes, curses, the likes of which these ears never have
heard. Corbett was the master tormentor in this respect.

Repeatedly he challenged Terry's ability to fight, to take it, to
do anything worth while in a fight.


The pace was maddening. Off came Graney's tuxedo coat! He
didn't have to hand It to anyone, simply flung it through space
over the ropes. Then his blood bespattered vest hurled In another
direction. By now his evening dress shirt was as red as a
volunteer fireman's. That went the way of the rest of his haberdashery. This strip teaslng came after every furious rally, The punctilious Mr. Graney wound up , wearing only black sweat shirt!

As Tarry gradually weakened, Corbett pounded filthy epithets
into his buzzing ears. Corbett had complete command of himself
now while Terry was fighting like a string of fire crackers popping,
his way and that! He just didn't have a noodle comparable with
Corbett's.

Corbett drove the little fellow toward a corner and, feinting
quickly, drove a left hook to Terry's jaw, spinning him around
like a musical top, Terry came down to a grotesque tangle on the
floor, finally getting to his hands' and knees as he listened to
George Harding's doleful knockdown chant. He was in another
world and Corbott knew it'


Leaning down toward the fallen man's ear, Corbett, said in a
whispering voice "WHAT ARE YOU DOING, QUITTING LIKE YOU
DID AT HARTFORD?"

You would have thought that Corbett had plunged a red hot
dagger through Terry's heart. His expression of horror at such
an insult rooted him completely to the floor. He was so enraged
that he remained glued, not, knowing that he was on the deck.
There a great little worrior was counted out. as he grinned and
scowled at Corbett by turns A glourious fight !

[iskigoe]

My 20 Greatest
By Hype Igoe
Internitionil News Service Sports Writer

ARTICLE NO. Z
NEW YORK, Mar. B. _ Bob Fitzmmons had been middleweight
champion in 1880 and heavyweight champion of the
world in 1807. But In 1803 he opposed George Gardner, the first
'light heavyweight" champion of the worldl It was a title created
by the late Lou Housman and Jack Curley.
Curley and Gardner and Lou was tho manager of Jack Root
when the "new division" was created, at Fort Erie, July 4, 1903.
root had won from Gardner on a foul in seven rounds the year previous
and he told Housmun that he was positive he could knock out Gardner if ever they met a second time.

Curley and Housmon dug up a fort Eric promoter and, to add zest to the attraction, Lou suggested that as bothRoot and Gardner were too smnll for their best efforts among legitimate heavies, they create a new dlvlslon and call It the "light heavyweight" class.

In the twelfth round, Gardner brought down Root, the man'
whom Jack Johnson declared was the "greatest old timer that ever
lived." The twelfth ever was a hoodoo for Root. Marvin Hart
knocked Root out when Jim Jeffries refered and bestowed his
vacanted title on the winner at Reno, Nevada, two years later.
With rings on his fingers and bells on his toes, Garnder came to
San Francisco with the happy Curley leading the king of the
" new division. Old Bob Fitzsimmons was around, looking for a
shot. He had failed against Jeffries In the same town the year
previous and the freckled one needed a little ready cash. Oh,
sure, they'd fight Gardner for the new title.

Shucks! A night's pay at that!
So they began training and, as usual, old Bob came to the ring
with blistered feet and sore hands. They fought 20 rounds in old
Mechanics Pavilion nnd along about the tenth round Bob's brittle
hands cracked up. He had done well and was leading Gardner
up to that point.

Then Bob used his uncanny fighting noodle. He couldn't hurt
any more solid blows without the danger of fainting dead away. He
was suffering excruciating pain in both hands and he didn't dare
connect with a single sock. He began winding up and throwing
vicious looking punches at Gardner's head Blow alter blow

Bob seemed to miss Gnrnder's chin and head by the breath of a hair
Intentional Misses Scare Gardner

As these intentional misses zoomed past his ears, Gardner took to his heels In terror. ' He had heard all about the shift, the uppercuts and the slraight bang, to the jaw. He wasn't going? to be trapped Into a mistake by the
blue-eyed Cornishman.

Round after round, so it went, The Gardner crowd didn't dream
that old Bob was spoofing with those vagrant punches. Curley, a
smart showman himself, was entirley taken by the Cornishman.
In Bob's corner, little Martin Julian, knowing about the'broken
bones, now more like cracker dust than the frame work of these
once amazing fists, kept egging Bob on to great speed and more
vicious swipes.

The accuracy of the old bird was uncanny, too. Often these
misdirected punches actually would scatter the hairs on Gardner's
head. George's eyes were popping like those of a bullfrog,
so fearful was he lest the red Head pop him to sleep.

Curley began running around the ring, hoping to be right on the
spot when Fitz pressed his champion close to the ropes. Jack
shouted only words of escape Julian, taking a cue from Curlcy
began to circle the; ring, too. He was screaming for a knockout
knowing full well that Filz wouldn't, couldn't apply It.


Fitz was pretty well winded toward the end, yet he was no
more tuckered out than was the s h a t t e r e d light heavyweight
champion of the world. At the finish, there was nothing left for
Referee Eddie Graney to do but hand old Bob his third world
title on a gold platter.

I called on old Bob the next day and he split his sides laughing as
he told of how his missing ruse had brought him his third crown
He thought it a tremendous joke

[Rick Farris]

d

[raylawpc]

Roger,

You can see Mcgovern-Gans on you tube and judge for yourself. I feel it was not a fake from what I saw on film. Gans from the film I see was a little slow to start, while McGovern was a Mad Dog right from jump street. I think Gans got caught quick. Im not saying McGovern was better. I think if they fought again Gans would change his style to protect the quick starting Terry. The reason Idont think it was a fake was Gans went down like he was shot. After that he fought like a drunk. Gans would have known how to throw a fight, and knew a bad fake could get him killed by the crowd. I also could see how with out replay one would think they were at a fake fight.

Hype was also friends with Rothstein, and knew Capone. Rothstein best man at his wedding was Herbert Baynard Swope, editor of the NY world and Hypes good friend. My aunt told me one night, Hype and his wife were out to dinner in NY. A man stopped at their table and said "hello Mr Igoe". He than walked across the room and backed into a phone booth. My grandmother asked who that was and why had he back in to the booth. Hype explained it was the ganster Legs Diamond, and it was not safe for him to enter with his back turned.

Even the gansters were better back then. They had Scar Face, and we get the Tephlone Don. LOL

First of all, Kevin, I don't see how anybody can make a judgment on the legitimacy of that fight from the movie on you tube. Its a typical grainy, jumpy turn of the century film. If you can tell anything definitively from that film, your eyes are much, much better than mine.

Second, I have several ringside reports about Gans-McGovern, including two by George Siler - the referee - that have his detailed comments about the bout. In these articles, Siler never says that Gans took a dive. He does say that Gans didn’t appear to be trying. But Siler goes on to speculate that Gans “may have been afraid of Terry or he may have been weakened by the body blows he received. . .”. Siler wrote that “Joe appeared frightened, but only he can say whether he was or not.” “McGovern,” he wrote, “fought as expected,” attacking aggressively, reaching Gans with hard blow shows, but having difficultly reaching Gans’ jaw. Chicago Tribune, 12/14/1900 p. 4. In another article, Siler cited McGovern’s hard body shots and Gans’ comment after the right that “the first body blow took his breath away and made him think of things other than fighting.” Siler also said that Gans “looked scared” and “turned ashen” after the first blow to the jaw. He said that Gans seemed to go down from leg-weariness, perhaps due to the body blows received, and not so much from the force of the headshots landed by McGovern. Yet, “[t]he blow which sent him down for the count was a short right-hand jolt under the chin and may have affected him. At least, I took it for granted that it was hard enough to have upset him.” He concluded that Gans “acted ‘dopey,’ looked scared to death, and his every effort was of the weakest order imaginable.” Chicago Tribune 12/16/1900 p. 17. All these articles were written immediately after the fight, when the rumors of a fixed fight threatened boxing in Chicago. So it is natural that Siler wouldn't state definitively whether the fight was faked, but its obvious he thought things looked fishy.

But later, in his book Inside Facts on Pugilism, Siler concedes his belief that Gans faked it. In chapter V "Honesty of the Prize Ring," he says quite a bit about the fight, and twice calls the McGovern fight a "fake." (p. 43, 44).

I put a LOT of weight in what Siler wrote - he was a former fighter, and an experienced referee. He was in the ring with the fighters and saw everything from a distance of not more than a few feet. At the time, he obviously had a lot of doubts about it, and he later called it a "fake."

In addition to the film and Siler's account, the newspaper accounts of the time indicate that many of the spectators at the fight thought that Gans faked it. (Some did, however, believe McGovern's body attack overwhelmed Gans, and set him up for the knockout.)

More important, the day before the fight, the odds suddenly shifted to McGovern, and you couldn't find any Gans money. The newspapers tell us that African-Americans, the day before the fight, began trying to lay big bets on McGovern. And, there were accounts of Gans staying out carousing in bars the night before the fight.

[dagosd2000]

Roger,

You can see Mcgovern-Gans on you tube and judge for yourself. I feel it was not a fake from what I saw on film. Gans from the film I see was a little slow to start, while McGovern was a Mad Dog right from jump street. I think Gans got caught quick. Im not saying McGovern was better. I think if they fought again Gans would change his style to protect the quick starting Terry. The reason Idont think it was a fake was Gans went down like he was shot. After that he fought like a drunk. Gans would have known how to throw a fight, and knew a bad fake could get him killed by the crowd. I also could see how with out replay one would think they were at a fake fight.

Hype was also friends with Rothstein, and knew Capone. Rothstein best man at his wedding was Herbert Baynard Swope, editor of the NY world and Hypes good friend. My aunt told me one night, Hype and his wife were out to dinner in NY. A man stopped at their table and said "hello Mr Igoe". He than walked across the room and backed into a phone booth. My grandmother asked who that was and why had he back in to the booth. Hype explained it was the ganster Legs Diamond, and it was not safe for him to enter with his back turned.

Even the gansters were better back then. They had Scar Face, and we get the Tephlone Don. LOL

Kevin
This is old hat,but my grandfather Diamond Joe Esposito,brought Al Capone from Brooklyn with the help of Frankie Yale
to Chicago. A young Al Capone worked for my grandfather. My grandfather ran things in Chicago until he was murdred in 1928.

[dagosd2000]

Roger,

You can see Mcgovern-Gans on you tube and judge for yourself. I feel it was not a fake from what I saw on film. Gans from the film I see was a little slow to start, while McGovern was a Mad Dog right from jump street. I think Gans got caught quick. Im not saying McGovern was better. I think if they fought again Gans would change his style to protect the quick starting Terry. The reason Idont think it was a fake was Gans went down like he was shot. After that he fought like a drunk. Gans would have known how to throw a fight, and knew a bad fake could get him killed by the crowd. I also could see how with out replay one would think they were at a fake fight.

Hype was also friends with Rothstein, and knew Capone. Rothstein best man at his wedding was Herbert Baynard Swope, editor of the NY world and Hypes good friend. My aunt told me one night, Hype and his wife were out to dinner in NY. A man stopped at their table and said "hello Mr Igoe". He than walked across the room and backed into a phone booth. My grandmother asked who that was and why had he back in to the booth. Hype explained it was the ganster Legs Diamond, and it was not safe for him to enter with his back turned.

Even the gansters were better back then. They had Scar Face, and we get the Tephlone Don. LOL

First of all, Kevin, I don't see how anybody can make a judgment on the legitimacy of that fight from the movie on you tube. Its a typical grainy, jumpy turn of the century film. If you can tell anything definitively from that film, your eyes are much, much better than mine.

Second, I have several ringside reports about Gans-McGovern, including two by George Siler - the referee - that have his detailed comments about the bout. In these articles, Siler never says that Gans took a dive. He does say that Gans didn’t appear to be trying. But Siler goes on to speculate that Gans “may have been afraid of Terry or he may have been weakened by the body blows he received. . .”. Siler wrote that “Joe appeared frightened, but only he can say whether he was or not.” “McGovern,” he wrote, “fought as expected,” attacking aggressively, reaching Gans with hard blow shows, but having difficultly reaching Gans’ jaw. Chicago Tribune, 12/14/1900 p. 4. In another article, Siler cited McGovern’s hard body shots and Gans’ comment after the right that “the first body blow took his breath away and made him think of things other than fighting.” Siler also said that Gans “looked scared” and “turned ashen” after the first blow to the jaw. He said that Gans seemed to go down from leg-weariness, perhaps due to the body blows received, and not so much from the force of the headshots landed by McGovern. Yet, “[t]he blow which sent him down for the count was a short right-hand jolt under the chin and may have affected him. At least, I took it for granted that it was hard enough to have upset him.” He concluded that Gans “acted ‘dopey,’ looked scared to death, and his every effort was of the weakest order imaginable.” Chicago Tribune 12/16/1900 p. 17. All these articles were written immediately after the fight, when the rumors of a fixed fight threatened boxing in Chicago. So it is natural that Siler wouldn't state definitively whether the fight was faked, but its obvious he thought things looked fishy.

But later, in his book Inside Facts on Pugilism, Siler concedes his belief that Gans faked it. In chapter V "Honesty of the Prize Ring," he says quite a bit about the fight, and twice calls the McGovern fight a "fake." (p. 43, 44).

I put a LOT of weight in what Siler wrote - he was a former fighter, and an experienced referee. He was in the ring with the fighters and saw everything from a distance of not more than a few feet. At the time, he obviously had a lot of doubts about it, and he later called it a "fake."

In addition to the film and Siler's account, the newspaper accounts of the time indicate that many of the spectators at the fight thought that Gans faked it. (Some did, however, believe McGovern's body attack overwhelmed Gans, and set him up for the knockout.)

More important, the day before the fight, the odds suddenly shifted to McGovern, and you couldn't find any Gans money. The newspapers tell us that African-Americans, the day before the fight, began trying to lay big bets on McGovern. And, there were accounts of Gans staying out carousing in bars the night before the fight.

Tom
With all respect to Kevin,I'm on your side on this argument. Boxing in Chicago did't have another title bout until Dempsey /Tunney II. Joe Gans was bigger than Terry and one of the greatest boxers of his era.