Marciano vs Holyfield @Cruiserweight

shanbopop · Post by **shanbopop** » 01 Jul 2004, 20:26

Marciano weighed around 185-190 so in todays standards hed be a cruiserweight,how do you all think this fight would go?I'd have to go with Marciano who had alot more power an one helluva chin!

perrycarter · Post by **perrycarter** » 01 Jul 2004, 21:03

Ive thought about this one before and still don't think I have a strong opinion either way. I am leaning towards Holyfield by Decision if he plays it safe and only boxes in spots. He probably loses if he tries to trade power punches like he did against Bowe in their first fight. Holy did have his was with Tyson though who has a similar style to Marciano. One of those matchups where you wish you had a time machine.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 02 Jul 2004, 08:33

Horrible matchup for Holyfield. Go ahead and put this at HW and have Holyfield at 208, b/c he is still going to lose by TKO.

Slapsie Maxie · Post by **Slapsie Maxie** » 02 Jul 2004, 08:35

Don't agree

Holyfield would bring in a great gameplan, not just Suzie Q.

Tough matchup, but Holy by UD

Slapsie

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 02 Jul 2004, 11:39

http://www.boxrec.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15202

I'd say that if Qawi could give Holyfield all he could handle at cruiser, Marciano would be just a bit too much.

Length of fight also matters - in a 12-rounder Holyfield's chances of keeping Marciano outside long enough to get enough points for a close win (with Marciano coming on strong and ricking him in the later rounds) are far better than in a 15-rounder. If I had to lay odds I'd say Marciano wins 6 of 10 12-rounders, but 8 of 10 15-rounders.

Marciano Frazier · Post by **Marciano Frazier** » 07 Jul 2004, 01:50

I pick Marciano by a tough decision or late TKO. Basically, this would be a war, but Marciano would be stronger, more durable, more powerful, and would just gradually batter Holyfield into submission, probably after losing most of the early rounds.

With a full-fledged heavyweight Holyfield, I think Marciano would probably win a little easier, as the cruiserweight Holyfield was faster with better stamina, two traits which would trouble Marciano more than the heavyweight Holyfield's greater physical strength and somewhat improved punching power.

harley_man · Post by **harley_man** » 07 Jul 2004, 11:55

I loved Holyfield at cruiser. Watched him through the Olympics and all the way up to the not-so-great recent past. But still a big fan of the historical Holyfield.

Problem with this matchup is the historical cruiserweight Holyfield was a neophyte. Even with his extensive amateur experience, he was not what you'd call a seasoned pro. So the cruiser Holy against a championship-calibre Marciano would be a bit uneven. As you say, look at what the experienced Qawi was able to accomplish. Even adding a few years and a few pounds to Holy and Marciano could certainly give him fits as did several bonafide experienced HWs. I love the Dokes fight - one of the most exciting KOs ever - but Holy had to really brawl that one out.

No historical Dokes compares to Marciano.

But a later Holyfield and a performance a la first Tyson fight and I'd say Real Deal over Rock by decision. How can you bet against a guy who pulled out so many unexpected wins through genuine hard work, talent and heart? Oops, I guess that goes for both of them. But no way does Marciano KO Holyfield.

Jukejar · Post by **Jukejar** » 07 Jul 2004, 12:04

Neither one would give an inch, and neither would be intimidated. Two of my favorites. I lean toward Marciano in the match-up overall, but a shorter distance fight, such as 10 or 12 rds, would serve Holyfield well since he would likely win some early rounds--maybe enough to win a decision if he is still there at the final bell. He could also bust up Marciano's face enough to force a stoppage at any point. With their styles the heads would likely be banging a lot, too, which could work to Holyfield's advantage. But in a 15-rounder I see Marciano eventually wearing Holyfield down for a TKO in the 12th or 13th round in a non-stop war with plenty of damage to both men.

harley_man · Post by **harley_man** » 07 Jul 2004, 12:14

What size gloves would these guys wear? My gramps always said he wished he'd fought with the big gloves so he didn't bleed as much. And Rock was a bleeder.

Some good points raised in that thread Eric mentions. Today's refs would stop Rock if he cut.

babulous · Post by **babulous** » 13 Jul 2004, 13:10

U people should not even mention POWER when it comes 2 Holyfields opp. The man been in the ring w/ Foreman, Bowe, Tyson, Lewis ( some of the biggest hw puncher in history) & he held his ground. Holyfield can take a punch, & what works against Marciano is that Holy is a great counterpuncher w/ skill & speed. Holyfield can take anything rocky can bring, the result would b something like the Bert Cooper fight, Holy gets rocked a bit, but his heart & skill will bring the fight 2 him. Holyfield tko 8 ( stopped on cuts ).

dan1030 · Post by **dan1030** » 15 Jul 2004, 22:19

Good point on the power (and size) of some of the guys Holyfield has faced. Marciano never showed he could deal with the same sort of firepower--it just wasn't out there for him to face. But the way Holy fought at cruiser--tending to stay right in front of a guy, always coming forward--would tend to give Marciano a really good chance. It's a tough call, but I'd go with Marciano. However, I think this is one of those match-ups where they could fight 5 times and split 3-2 (or even 2-2-1!).

Jukejar · Post by **Jukejar** » 16 Jul 2004, 02:04

Holyfield can indeed take a punch, but the big heavies mentioned were against a heavyweight Holyfield, which does change the formula at least a little bit. I think the Qawi fight is a good reference if we're limiting the Marciano-Holyfield match-up to cruiserweight, and the amount of sustained punishment Marciano would dish out would be considerablely more than Dwight did, at least in terms of power. I can't argue with the TKO win on cuts for Holyfield, or a points victory due to his superior boxing skills (any decent boxer lasting the distance against Marciano would have a chance to win on points), but I still think a late round TKO--though not a KO--for Marciano is a reasonable prediction given the styles in question.

alrightjim · Post by **alrightjim** » 17 Jul 2004, 02:43

No doubt there are legit reasons for favoring Marciano in this scuffle. First, supporters will say he had more power. Sure, it looks like he had more power punching blown-up black light heavies pushing 40. Holyfield fought big men, 40 pounds heavier than Mariciano and these men weren't tomato cans. They had skill and hard muscle. Marciano could punch, but at crusierweight, so could Holyfield and Holyfield had the better hand speed, cleaner combinations. Marciano had bottom, and Holyfield had bottom, but not like Marciano. Marciano could slug and slug and slug until the other guy just folded up his tent. It's hard to see the guy who twice beat Tyson folding up his tent, though, but Holyfield would be pressured big time in the late rounds. Lucky for him they would only go 12. At 15, Marciano's chances improve considerably.

The main reason for adamant belief in Marciano is he's white. All the white fighters who fought in decades past are great beyond their actual ability, Marciano in particular. That's how people want to look at them, insist on misremembering them. Like no other sport, boxing brings out a visceral favortism for one's racially and culturally own. All objectivity gets flushed down the crapper. I'm a breed Indian guy from South Dakota. There's never been a decent breed Indian prizefighter. It's easier for me to be objective. Of all the prizefighters I can think of, Marciano has to be the most likeable. He was a terrific guy outside the ropes. I suppose if my surname were Siciliano or something, I'd think Marciano was the greatest, too, and I'd have romantic, unrealistic expectations for him against better fighters like Holyfield.

Holyfield stops Marciano on cuts. Holyfield knocks him down with a counter lefthook. Marciano has some moments, but his face looks like raw meat after eight rounds.

Jukejar · Post by **Jukejar** » 17 Jul 2004, 03:46

alrightjim wrote:
The main reason for adamant belief in Marciano is he's white. All the white fighters who fought in decades past are great beyond their actual ability, Marciano in particular. That's how people want to look at them, insist on misremembering them. Like no other sport, boxing brings out a visceral favortism for one's racially and culturally own. All objectivity gets flushed down the crapper. I'm a breed Indian guy from South Dakota. There's never been a decent breed Indian prizefighter. It's easier for me to be objective. Of all the prizefighters I can think of, Marciano has to be the most likeable. He was a terrific guy outside the ropes. I suppose if my surname were Siciliano or something, I'd think Marciano was the greatest, too, and I'd have romantic, unrealistic expectations for him against better fighters like Holyfield.

I find it amazingly ridiculous that in favoring a fighter who went 49-0 and beat some of the finest heavyweights of the mid-twentieth century (and yes most people like to say Ezzard Charles was a lightheavy but he won and held the HEAVYWEIGHT Title) that I am being a racist. Can you seriously reduce Rocky Marciano to the status of racist delusion?

These imaginary bouts are fun to discuss and most of the time the input is thoughtful and entertaining and often based on careful research of the fighters involved. But then there are those who refuse to move beyond the shallow and ignorant.

alrightjim · Post by **alrightjim** » 17 Jul 2004, 04:23

Can you seriously reduce Rocky Marciano to the status of racist delusion?

What an exaggeration. I said he couldn't beat Holyfield. I never characterized him as a racist delusion. Overreactive responses like yours are usually a fair indication of denial, of the truth striking too close to home. Marciano was a great fighter. He just fought in an era when he didn't have to face Johnson or Louis in his prime or Cleveland Williams and Sonny Liston or Ali or Frazier or Foreman or Holmes or Holyfield or Bowe or Lewis or Tyson. You actually like his chances against those people??

These imaginary bouts are fun to discuss and most of the time the input is thoughtful and entertaining and often based on careful research of the fighters involved. But then there are those who refuse to move beyond the shallow and ignorant.

[/quote]

That would be you, not me, Sport. There was nothing shallow or ignorant about my examples or explanations. I'll stack my capacity to analyze and intelligently determine probable outcomes based upon knowledge and research against yours just any old time.

Marciano was small, too small and his defense too porous to hold his own with the fighters aforementioned, same reasons you won't hold your message board own against me. I have nothing against the guy. I respect his ability. That is just the reality. I am sorry there isn't a white heavy you can romaticize and worship currently plying his craft, but there ain't. Why is a debate for another time, but you probably won't like what I have to say about that matter, either.

Professor X · Post by **Professor X** » 17 Jul 2004, 07:56

Hoyfield-Qawi I: This was something like Holyfield's eighth to eleventh professional fight. Considering the opponent, it was an incredible feat for Holyfield to become champion that early in his career. Who did Marciano face in his tenth pro fight?

Holyfield-Qawi II: Holyfield knocked Qawi under the ropes and damn near onto the scorers table with one overhand right in the fourth round (it was very similar to the punch that Holyfield landed on Tyson in the tenth round of Holyfied-Tyson I...that overhand right that so damaged Tyson).
I think Holyfield could land that same punch on the always shuffling forward Marciano.

Holyfield -who also throws a wicked uppercut...to the chest- by tenth or eleventh round TKO in a rugged, not ragged, encounter.

alrightjim · Post by **alrightjim** » 17 Jul 2004, 09:24

Professor X: Who did Marciano face in his tenth pro fight?

Hi Professor. A guy named Bob Jefferson, a 172 pounder had a record of 1-2. Bob went on to finish his career at 1-9, seven of those losses were by knockout.

Professor X:[/b] Holyfield -who also throws a wicked uppercut...to the chest- by tenth or eleventh round TKO in a rugged, not ragged, encounter.

[/quote]

Two things. Qawi was a lot harder to hit than Marciano. Marciano was a much busier fighter and Holyfield was pushed to the wall stamina wise by Qawi in that early fght. And boy could Marciano punch. So it would be a different fight. But why should Holyfield have to fight a Marciano in his tenth pro fight when Marciano got to fight a Bob Jefferson? Marciano would have knocked Holyfield out.

Wait another ten fights. Marciano fought a guy named Tommy Giorgio, weighed in at 184, had a record of 10-9. Better than Bob Jefferson. Giorgino went on to post a 10-16 career record, ten of those losses by knockout. Not as pathetic as Bob Jefferson but nothing to brag about. Holyfield actually got Qawi in his 12th pro fight but in his 20th pro fight he fought Pinklon Thomas. Thomas quit on his tool after the seventh round. No comparison.

The two fighters who knocked Marciano down, Walcott and Moore, were both pushing forty, their best years well behind them. They could still fight, but they are not the same test as the Lewis Bowe or Tyson whom Holyfield faced.

I am not saying Marciano was a stiff and couldn't fight or a "racist delusion" as some other poster accused me of implying. I am just saying we have to be frank and objective when assessing his abilities and accomplishments. I loved the guy, he was my old man's hero. But I won't romanticize him as a prizefighter.

Jukejar · Post by **Jukejar** » 17 Jul 2004, 12:07

alrightjim wrote: The main reason for adamant belief in Marciano is he's white. All the white fighters who fought in decades past are great beyond their actual ability, Marciano in particular. That's how people want to look at them, insist on misremembering them.

You didn't "imply" that Marciano was a racist delusion; you stated it.

And I don't remember suggesting that Marciano could beat a prime Louis, Ali, etc.,--those are for other threads. I suggested that he could beat a 190lb Evander Holyfield. Big difference, "sport." I have no problem listening to arguments that Marciano would lose to many all-time great heavyweights, and even many near-greats. His size and style easily lends itself to that specualtion. Your pomposity aside, your analysis of the imaginary bout itself wasn't that far removed from my original scenerio--so why couldn't you have left the race issue out of it and stuck with analysis?

alrightjim · Post by **alrightjim** » 17 Jul 2004, 13:41

Jukejar: You didn't "imply" that Marciano was a racist delusion; you stated it.

No I didn't. I wrote the following: The main reason for adamant belief in Marciano is he's white.

Your inferences do not equate to my implications. They only indicate you can't properly read what I write. I said the main reason for "adamant belief" in Marciano was his race, not the main reason for an objective, perspicacious assessment of his abilities.

Whatever you personally posted on this thread I could give a rip about if your initial post to me had to be the mouthy, unfriendly one you posted. There were plenty of more gentlemanly approaches you could have taken. You could have posted---"I have to respectfully disagree with you that people inflate Marciano's abilities because he was white." I would have replied respectfully. But, no, you wanted to scuffle with me. Fine, I can handle a welterweight's punches, and I know this won't discourage the likes of yourself, but I am well out of your league.

My remarks were aimed at the thread, not at you personally, and you took such wiseass offense because (as far as Jukejar is concerned) my remarks hit a bullseye. The leopard recognized his own camouflage and didn't like the sting of exposure.

Jukejar: And I don't remember suggesting that Marciano could beat a prime Louis, Ali, etc.,--

I never suggested such a thing, either. I meant this only for this with an "adamant belief" in Marciano. You decided you were among these people, not me. I had no idea what your personal feelings were. I was making a statement for the general sake of the thread.

Jukejar: Your pomposity aside, your analysis of the imaginary bout itself wasn't that far removed from my original scenerio--so why couldn't you have left the race issue out of it and stuck with analysis?

The race issue is legitimate analysis, genius! Better pompous than specious, and I ain't even pompous, just because you like that label for me. I'm a sweet person with tender feelings, and when you post naughty, provocative, unflattering remarks like you did to me, I kinda get defensive.

No hard feelings, Sport?

Professor X · Post by **Professor X** » 17 Jul 2004, 14:14

Thank you, alrightjim. I figured that someone could answer my question.

I guess my point was in that bringing up Holyfield-Qawi I as an indicator of showing certain Holyfield weaknesses to be xploited by Marciano is a bit misleading. This is pro boxing...you'd have to mention that that was Holyfield's 12th pro tilt (thanks again, alrightjim).

Qawi was a good, near great, boxer, but nobody, not even a crazy person, at any time, would have put Holyfield up against the Rock in only his 12th pro fight.

What about the prime Rock (187 lbs) vs the Holyfield (207 lbs) that first won the heavyweight belts? I still think that version of Holyfield could have landed the overhand right on Marciano and stopped him by late TKO in a real deal battle (no pun intended).

alrightjim · Post by **alrightjim** » 17 Jul 2004, 15:39

Professor X: you'd have to mention that that was Holyfield's 12th pro tilt (thanks again, alrightjim).

I was gonna let it go but I thought a certain poster that appears to have taken a dislike to me might use it against me in the future, accuse me of bad research or something.

Professor X: Qawi was a good, near great, boxer, but nobody, not even a crazy person, at any time, would have put Holyfield up against the Rock in only his 12th pro fight.

Some unscrupulous pre WWII promoter maybe if Holyfield didn't have such a stellar Olympic and amatuer career to make the public aware of him. Plenty of black fighters from that period were overmatched and betrayed for that reason. Freddie Pendleton had this happen to him in modern times, so it could happen. Fearless Freddie was the goods, but he had to become that taking his lumps against better opponents. But putting a 12 fight Holyfield in against the Rock, well, Holyfield doesn't just lose that fight, he gets the holy hell beat out of him.

What about the prime Rock (187 lbs) vs the Holyfield (207 lbs) that first won the heavyweight belts? I still think that version of Holyfield could have landed the overhand right on Marciano and stopped him by late TKO in a real deal battle (no pun intended).

I agree with the outcome, Professor. But I think the real danger to Marciano would be a counter lefthook. Holyfield was disqualified in the Olympics because of the sudden, crunching stopping power of this punch, and both times the Rock hit the canvas in his career were a result of this punch. The danger for this punch is in the first few rounds before Marciano gets cracking. If Holyfield doesn't put sufficient hurt on Marciano in the first half of the fight, the Rock goes ballistic in the second half and maybe even Carmine Vingo's him. I still think the first scenario is more likely.

Holyfield is a sadly underappreciated fighter. He had weaknesses, but the slick way he pushed and turned and matadored Tyson in that first fight is something every prospective fighter should take to heart and every fan should acknowledge and respect.

Nice posting with you, Professor.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 17 Jul 2004, 15:43

Of course they're people who overtly romantisize Marciano, some for ethnic and racial reasons. But let's assume the good users of this board are beyond any of that.

I will be the first to say Holyfield has a better resume then Marciano. But I think saying "oh. b/c Holyfiled beat 235 lb Bowe, he'd surely beat 185 ;b Rocky" is really bad comparison. Rocky may have never beaten a good big HW, but what great small HW did Holyfield ever beat?? One of Holyfield's big attributes was that he could outspeed and importantly out-stamina his bigger and more bulky opponents, thus his success vs Lewis, Foreman, Tyson, Moorer 11. I think on the other end I believe a 195 lb Ezzard Charles beats Tyson, Foreman, Bowe worse then Holy ever did. While Marciano's style would serve him bad against guys like Holmes or Liston, Evander would also find more trouble in the era of 195 lb HWs who came to fight for 15 rounds. Hell, minus your Hepatitis C instance in the 3rd Bowe fight, Holyfield was in the greatest trouble of his career vs little Bert Cooper and James Toney. The era and size thing works both ways.

alrightjim · Post by **alrightjim** » 17 Jul 2004, 18:53

Dempseyfire: Of course they're people who overtly romantisize Marciano, some for ethnic and racial reasons. But let's assume the good users of this board are beyond any of that.

Hi Dempseyfire. There is no reason for assuming that. There are dozens of boxing message boards and I find that this is what drives people's passions. Before there were message boards or computers, my father's generation used to brag ugly on Marciano. They revered him, they said, "Man, the Rock, he sure is some kind of person killer." Even as a tiny boy I winced at such remarks. So the good users of this board are not above this type of thinking, neither are the two of us. Every person can let emotive agendas taint their fundamental assessments of anything, but particularly prizefighting.

I will be the first to say Holyfield has a better resume then Marciano.

That's good, because he does.

But I think saying "oh. b/c Holyfiled beat 235 lb Bowe, he'd surely beat 185 ;b Rocky" is really bad comparison.

I agree. But I never said this, and if any other person did say or imply this, i agree with you. I think Holyfield beats Rocky because he's better than Rocky, and being bigger and more skilled are aspects of why he is better.

Rocky may have never beaten a good big HW, but what great small HW did Holyfield ever beat??

There are no great small heavyweights today, as being big in this era is a bedrock prerequisite to being great. Tyson is really only 5-10. Sure, he's stout, but I would call him a small heavy, and Holyfield beat him twice.

One of Holyfield's big attributes was that he could outspeed and importantly out-stamina his bigger and more bulky opponents, thus his success vs Lewis, Foreman, Tyson, Moorer 11.

Sorry, Dempseyfire, but Moorer came out of the Kronk at lightheavy. He had murderous power at that weight. He was a smallish heavy, by any standards.

I think on the other end I believe a 195 lb Ezzard Charles beats Tyson, Foreman, Bowe worse then Holy ever did.

Charles was truly great at lightheavy, perhaps the best that ever lived, but he would have his hands full with Michael Spinks, forget Tyson or Bowe or Foreman! We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Charles would have a great plan for the young Tyson, but like Tyson used to say, they all got a plan, until they get hit. Charles had a suspect chin, to put it politely.

While Marciano's style would serve him bad against guys like Holmes or Liston, Evander would also find more trouble in the era of 195 lb HWs who came to fight for 15 rounds.

Not because these heavyweights were smaller, but just because they were generally better. But Marciano would have had more trouble, too, which is why he really retired. Looming on the horizon were Patterson, Williams, Liston, Folley, Machen. And they were young and starving for success. I wouldn't wish that murderer's row on the Rock.

Hell, minus your Hepatitis C instance in the 3rd Bowe fight, Holyfield was in the greatest trouble of his career vs little Bert Cooper and James Toney. The era and size thing works both ways.

Holyfield took a hard right from Cooper, but he was never really in trouble in that fight. Coop had no bottom, all Holyfield had to do is hang tough and let the rounds bring Cooper to him. As far as Toney goes, why not say Louis couldn't handle Marciano. That was an old and spent Louis. Fighting to pay off his tax debt. That was an old Holyfield. The Holyfield of 1990 knocks Toney cold.

Thanks for the post, Dempseyfire.

Professor X · Post by **Professor X** » 17 Jul 2004, 19:34

You beat me to the punch on a few of your points, alrightjim, one being that Holyfield is sadly underappreciated. But I do not lightly pick him over the Rock. Holyfield would have to be focused (and he would be) for that fight.

Holyfield is the most interesting at mythical matchups among heavyweights for me because it seems that a focused Holyfield could have given ANYBODY fits at that weight. He had the chin, the talent, the boxing ability and the toughness to hang with anybody. Imagine:

Holyfield-Dempsey
Holyfield-Louis
Holyfield-Frazier
Holyfield-Johnson
Holyfield-Ali
Holyfield-Liston

alrightjim · Post by **alrightjim** » 17 Jul 2004, 20:22

Professor X: Holyfield is the most interesting at mythical matchups among heavyweights for me because it seems that a focused Holyfield could have given ANYBODY fits at that weight. He had the chin, the talent, the boxing ability and the toughness to hang with anybody. Imagine:

Holyfield-Dempsey
Holyfield-Louis
Holyfield-Frazier
Holyfield-Johnson
Holyfield-Ali
Holyfield-Liston

Hi Professor. I can imagine all those fights in my mind. I've even fought them out, with my Michele. I spent years designing a boxing simulation. Never gave a crap if any people besides me and Michele ever saw it. She loves boxing. We play it all the time and that damn Foreman keeps winning the title and I don't even really like the guy. What can you do.

Holyfield-Dempsey. Holyfield does really well against left hookers. Big right hands are what bothers him. Dempsey runs out of gas inside of nine.

Holyfield-Louis. I like Louis in this one. Sorry. Louis could hurt you with either hand on a punch that traveled maybe eight inches. And once he hurt you, well, you were dead meat. Best killer instinct ever.

Holyfield-Frazier. Another left hooker. Holyfield by decision.

Holyfield-Johnson. Johnson by decision. Too skilled, too confidant, a truly remarkable fighter.

Holyfield-Ali. I think this would be the most entertaining fight. Holyfield would refuse to be shown up and outboxed. he'd find a way to make Muhammad fight. Problem is Muhammad had a magnificent lead right hand, ask Foreman. Holyfield had a hard time with big right hands his whole career. Ali by decision.

Holyfield-Liston. I honestly have no idea how this one would go. Just don't know. You got any ideas on this fight, Professor?

Marciano vs Holyfield @Cruiserweight

Marciano vs Holyfield @Cruiserweight

Holyfield/Marciano

Re: Holyfield/Marciano

Holyfield-Marciano

Re: Holyfield-Marciano

Holyfield-Marciano

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