Head injury specialist reviews "The Phantom Punch"

[raylawpc]

My personal opinion has been that the knockdown was genuine, but that the "knockout" was not.

I think Liston was the victim of a flash knockdown. That kind of knockdown can happen to anyone. For example, it happened to iron-chined Rocky Marciano against Jersey Joe Walcott in round one of their first fight - and Walcott was not known as a devastating puncher.

However, I think Liston could have gotten right back up. It anyone's guess why he chose to flop around like a fish out of water for 20 seconds before he finally getting to his feet.

[Goodnight, Irene]

My personal opinion has been that the knockdown was genuine, but that the "knockout" was not.

I think Liston was the victim of a flash knockdown. That kind of knockdown can happen to anyone. For example, it happened to iron-chined Rocky Marciano against Jersey Joe Walcott in round one of their first fight - and Walcott was not known as a devastating puncher.

However, I think Liston could have gotten right back up. It anyone's guess why he chose to flop around like a fish out of water for 20 seconds before he finally getting to his feet.

Apparently, it isn't anyone's guess, because Collins has figured it out --- no if's, & or but's. He doesn't know any better than you or I what really happened, but in making up his own mind, he sees fit to also read statements from me which aren't there.

For the record, only Granberry would actually blame Ali for the outcome. I don't. No reasonable person can.

[Collins2000]

My personal opinion has been that the knockdown was genuine, but that the "knockout" was not.

I think Liston was the victim of a flash knockdown. That kind of knockdown can happen to anyone. For example, it happened to iron-chined Rocky Marciano against Jersey Joe Walcott in round one of their first fight - and Walcott was not known as a devastating puncher.

However, I think Liston could have gotten right back up. It anyone's guess why he chose to flop around like a fish out of water for 20 seconds before he finally getting to his feet.

Apparently, it isn't anyone's guess, because Collins has figured it out --- no if's, & or but's. He doesn't know any better than you or I what really happened, but in making up his own mind, he sees fit to also read statements from me which aren't there.

For the record, only Granberry would actually blame Ali for the outcome. I don't. No reasonable person can.

Based on what I saw, Liston bailed out.

Not sure what your opinion is, mate. All I've seen from you so far is a load of gibberish which seems to end up blaming Ali (or is it the Ali industry) for the whole fiasco.

Perhaps you could spell out your views on the fight without resorting to the actions of a teenage drama queen? Come on, Irene, you can do it if you try.

[toppity]

i went with the option that had beer in it.

[Rick Farris]

Rick, what you say rings true to me. However my guess is that we part ways (perhaps only slightly) in that I have no trouble imagining that all of these factors may be somewhat evident in this story. "Slight of hand" is all about speed and deception....which on occasion can be deceptively powerful. I choose those words carefully, and believe them to be true, in this case on several levels. That moment has enigma written all over it.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Based on what I saw, Liston bailed out.

Not sure what your opinion is, mate. All I've seen from you so far is a load of gibberish which seems to end up blaming Ali (or is it the Ali industry) for the whole fiasco.

Perhaps you could spell out your views on the fight without resorting to the actions of a teenage drama queen? Come on, Irene, you can do it if you try.

" - Collins

To be honest --- & to clarify, as per your request --- I don't really have an opinion. I find a lot of credence in several scenarios, leaving the waters muddied for me. Maybe he bailed to avoid a beating, maybe the mob or NOI (there was certainly enough dirt on Liston for him to have dove in both fights, & I've always had a nagging doubt about the original 1964 bout), maybe he felt he couldn't beat Ali (or didn't care --- it's widely-reported he stopped training when the clash was post-poned) & wanted to take away from Ali's victory.

They all seem pretty plausible, from all I've read & researched. One thing I cannot possibly do is hold what happened against Ali, so let's you & I get that perfectly clear. On the other hand, it's hard to credit him for the fight much, either. I am, after all, not part of the great man's industry of worshippers (One thing --- possibly the only thing --- Granberry nailed was no fighter inspires such jaw-dropping, starry-eyed bullshit from fanatics as does Ali).

Now, who's more reasonable, & therefore less Granberry-esque --- myself, who thinks several scenarios are possible, or you, who takes the one lending most credence to Ali, in between making weak attempts to undermine me by calling me, "Irene."

[Collins2000]

To be honest --- & to clarify, as per your request --- I don't really have an opinion.

For a man who claims not to have an opinion, you seem mighty excited about this

I am, after all, not part of the great man's industry of worshippers (One thing --- possibly the only thing --- Granberry nailed was no fighter inspires such jaw-dropping, starry-eyed bullshit from fanatics as does Ali).

Would that be a worshipping fanatic like me, mate? If not, then which of the posters here are you trying to insult?

Now, who's more reasonable, & therefore less Granberry-esque --- myself, who thinks several scenarios are possible, or you, who takes the one lending most credence to Ali

Why, you of course. After all, I'm just an Ali shill aren't I?

[Goodnight, Irene]

More, "quotes" from me which've never been made.

[Collins2000]

More, "quotes" from me which've never been made.

Really?

Then who are all the 'fanatics' spouting 'bullsh*t' to whom you allude?

Mate, if you want to label people, no problem. But don't label them and then claim you didn't. That's the sort of hypocricy that the real granberry would be proud of.

I'll ask you again. Who are these 'fanatics' you keep referring to?

[Goodnight, Irene]

I'm not speaking of specific people on this forum. I stated no fighter inspires such propaganda as does Ali. That is a statement on boxing fans, in general --- not a mark on you, or anyone else.

[Collins2000]

I'm not speaking of specific people on this forum. I stated no fighter inspires such propaganda as does Ali. That is a statement on boxing fans, in general --- not a mark on you, or anyone else.

Alright, mate.

But remember. There are legitimate reasons why Ali is seen by many knowledgable fans as the greatest heavyweight of all time. And notice I said 'greatest heavyweight'.

It's not all smoke and mirrors with a bunch of simpletons being led by the nose by a pied piper employed by the "Ali Industry" chanting mantras to The Greatest.

There is substance to the claim; and as a boxing fan you know that.

[Robinson]

Collins..you mean the greatest after Larry Holmes :)

[Collins2000]

Collins..you mean the greatest after Larry Holmes :)

I always like Larry. Best heavy since Ali for me.

[raylawpc]

Here's a slow motion clip of the "infamous" knockdown in Clay-Liston II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T_dHRLn5rM

Everyone can decide for themselves about the punch and resulting knockdown.

[jaclem2]

..boxbuzz knows a lot about boxing and i know a lot more than he does. i don't know anything about head injuries though, so i am at least willing to concede he may be right about the effects of that punch.

i would have come here with my post earlier, but i was upset with buzzy's referring to something as VERY unique, when unique cannot have a modifier. something is either unique or not,. period.

plus, he refers to "slight of hand" (it's sleight of hand) as showing that the "eye is quicker than the hand," which it is not. i am an amateur card magician and we really use redirection of attention, more commonly called misdirection.

[Robinson]

and fighters all to often see it coming, but the reaction time just is
not there. Thats what makes fast guys like Ali so dangerous.

The punch clearly lands, it clearly cracks Liston on the jaw-side of
the face.

Liston...for whatever reason, was reluctant to get up.

Ali looks genuinely disappointed. Winning by 1 round KO is one thing,
but when theatrics occur it makes one feel robbed of training and
effort and will have people debating the fights legitimacy 40 odd years
later.

In my modest opinon their is no sleight of hand as such, just a
well timed right hand over a slow Liston jab. Perfect and cheekily
timed on Ali's behalf.

What the alterior motives were...who knows. But I doubt Ali and his
people had anything to do with it. Maybe it is a simple case of Liston
just not having the 'fight' in him for this one. Sometimes even the
strongest and bravest of us just want to sleep in too.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

In my modest opinon their is no sleight of hand as such, just a
well timed right hand over a slow Liston jab. Perfect and cheekily
timed on Ali's behalf.

- Liston had decent hand speed. His flaw was the same in the first fight, he had great difficulty in the first few rounds establishing the correct punching distance on a retreating target.

In short he was lunging in when not reaching and off balance, normally not a flaw against a fast retreating target. This being Ali, Ali spontaneously flashes his right, an off balanced arm punch. No power on the punch from either a set in the legs or a twist in the torso save Ali's snap that does snap Liston's head a bit. Just like the thousand little shots fighters routinely absorb in their careers.

As I alluded, we can never know for sure, but with Liston already off balance and looking at the canvas, it looked to be the perfect time to drop and roll. Just like Sonny's death was the perfect timing in advance of his appearance before a Congressional committee investigating boxing.

[Robinson]

I was never suggesting Liston was slow as such. Just that the
lunging jabs at this stage, were there to be countered by Ali's
speed.

I agree re- Liston's timing on such trying matters.

An interesting life, I just hope they don't make a mess of the
movie.

[Goodnight, Irene]

..boxbuzz knows a lot about boxing and i know a lot more than he does. i don't know anything about head injuries though, so i am at least willing to concede he may be right about the effects of that punch.

i would have come here with my post earlier, but i was upset with buzzy's referring to something as VERY unique, when unique cannot have a modifier. something is either unique or not,. period.

plus, he refers to "slight of hand" (it's sleight of hand) as showing that the "eye is quicker than the hand," which it is not. i am an amateur card magician and we really use redirection of attention, more commonly called misdirection.

I noticed both errors, but, for some reason, I was reluctant to point either out. There's often a lack of distinction between, 'your' &, 'you're' in the posts, but I guess no one's perfect.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I was never suggesting Liston was slow as such. Just that the
lunging jabs at this stage, were there to be countered by Ali's
speed.

I agree re- Liston's timing on such trying matters.

An interesting life, I just hope they don't make a mess of the
movie.

With Vingh Rhames in the hot seat & the film being entitled, "Phantom Punch," don't hold your breath. What a great idea --- name a fight film about a boxer after the lowest point of their career.

Michael Mann really dropped the ball in 2001, releasing Ali. Should have called it, Leon Spinks SD15 Muhammad Ali.

[hhaehre]

My personal opinion has been that the knockdown was genuine, but that the "knockout" was not.

I think Liston was the victim of a flash knockdown. That kind of knockdown can happen to anyone. For example, it happened to iron-chined Rocky Marciano against Jersey Joe Walcott in round one of their first fight - and Walcott was not known as a devastating puncher.

However, I think Liston could have gotten right back up. It anyone's guess why he chose to flop around like a fish out of water for 20 seconds before he finally getting to his feet.

This is exactly my opinion as well. I don't think Liston planned it especially but when on the canvas he took the easy way out. Jersey Joe made it look even worse with his botched count forcing Sonny to flop around excessively.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Alright, mate.

But remember. There are legitimate reasons why Ali is seen by many knowledgable fans as the greatest heavyweight of all time. And notice I said 'greatest heavyweight'.

It's not all smoke and mirrors with a bunch of simpletons being led by the nose by a pied piper employed by the "Ali Industry" chanting mantras to The Greatest.

There is substance to the claim; and as a boxing fan you know that." - Collins

What would you say if I told you I rank Ali #1 all-time on accomplishment, & #2 all-time on who-beats-who?

[BoxBuzz]

..boxbuzz knows a lot about boxing and i know a lot more than he does. i don't know anything about head injuries though, so i am at least willing to concede he may be right about the effects of that punch.

i would have come here with my post earlier, but i was upset with buzzy's referring to something as VERY unique, when unique cannot have a modifier. something is either unique or not,. period.

plus, he refers to "slight of hand" (it's sleight of hand) as showing that the "eye is quicker than the hand," which it is not. i am an amateur card magician and we really use redirection of attention, more commonly called misdirection.

I noticed both errors, but, for some reason, I was reluctant to point either out. There's often a lack of distinction between, 'your' &, 'you're' in the posts, but I guess no one's perfect.

I type in stream of consciousness mode and seldom go back and look for inevitable errors....it's a "uniquely remarkable" aspect of my nature. I hope "yo're" satisfied with my response in this matter. I may have been ever so sleightly tired at the time I offered that "particulatory" contribution.

Perhaps you know my brother and mentor..Professor Irwin Corey AKA The World's Foremost Authority.

[Collins2000]

"Alright, mate.

But remember. There are legitimate reasons why Ali is seen by many knowledgable fans as the greatest heavyweight of all time. And notice I said 'greatest heavyweight'.

It's not all smoke and mirrors with a bunch of simpletons being led by the nose by a pied piper employed by the "Ali Industry" chanting mantras to The Greatest.

There is substance to the claim; and as a boxing fan you know that." - Collins

What would you say if I told you I rank Ali #1 all-time on accomplishment, & #2 all-time on who-beats-who?

I'd say I hope the #1 ranking is only at heavyweight and not P4P.

And also, Who do you have beating Ali head-to-head? I'd give a peak Brown Bomber a good chance.

[Robinson]

Ali head to head....peak for peak ..

Holmes for me..
Tyson perhaps..
Louis good chance...
Holyfield maybe..
Lewis some days..
Frazier some days..
Norton has a good shot at it..
Patterson long shot..but could happen.

Best two to win in my books are Holmes
followed by Louis.