Holmes vs Witherspoon Scorecards

[prodigious1]

For this month's scorecard feature, The Boxing Bulletin looks back to the night Larry Holmes put his heavyweight title on the line against young Tim Witherspoon. With only fifteen fights to his name, few gave the challenger much chance, but the 6 to 1 underdog pushed the long-time champ to the brink.

Did Larry deserve to hang on to his title? Did Terrible Tim do enough to take it?

Let's go back to the Dunes Hotel in Las Vegas, May 20, 1983...

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Hope you enjoy it. Feel free to leave your thoughts about the fight and the decision.

[Seamus]

Coming into this bout, I didn't give Witherspoon much of a chance, because I had him as a 1pt loser in his most recent fight, which was against Renaldo Snipes.

[prodigious1]

The ninth round doesn't get the love it deserves for being an all time great heavyweight championship round.

[Robinson]

Thank you for posting this.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Did Larry deserve to hang on to his title? Did Terrible Tim do enough to take it?
.

- Larry didn't deserve his title. Norton, Spoon and Truth did more than enough to own it.

Would have preferred he come back and challenge one of the WBA rotating champs who were knocking each other off the top of dirt pile. He's good enough to make his spot in the rotation and he'd have a more realistic career with less padding.

[Robinson]

Holmes beat all three of those men.
Norton convincingly/
The other two were damned close runs.

[prodigious1]

Interestingly, I saw this fight for the first time about 5 years ago and had Holmes winning. I didn't score it on paper or anything though. So I was a bit surprised I had it 6-5-1 for Spoon when I kept track.

[overhand_right]

I had Spoon winning that fight fair & square, and i'm a fan of both guys.

Carl Williams obviously won. I doubt i'm alone, i remember in 95 Boxing Monthyl rating both fights in their top 10 heavyweight controversies.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I had Holmes by two, but that was a single scoring, over two years ago. Williams did indeed beat Holmes, I thought.

[jezzamundo]

It's funny how boxing works

Ali > Foreman > Frazier > Ali

etc etc

I rate Larry Holmes as the 3rd greatest heavyweight of all-time, and he fought a very close fight with Carl Williams, yet I think Lennox Lewis (who I rate AT No7) would have blown Williams away in the first 4 rounds.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I rate Larry Holmes as the 3rd greatest heavyweight of all-time, and he fought a very close fight with Carl Williams, yet I think Lennox Lewis (who I rate AT No7) would have blown Williams away in the first 4 rounds.

- Everyone just about blew Williams away.

Larry is overrated as a boxer, underrated as a plodder the last half of his title run, and didn't have the pop to do away with a Williams who's chin hadn't been exposed yet.

Have to challenge and beat the best of your era to be rated #3. That doesn't describe Larry who was protected from the other champs by King. The emperor never had any clothes.

[dempseyfire]

Well if Holmes sucks b/c at 35 he got a close one vs Williams which should have gone the other way, what does that make Tyson, who in the prime of his career got KO'd by Buster Douglas??

[Ezzard]

Dempsey, you probably forget that (i) that wasn't the real Mike and (ii) Douglas would have beaten every other champ of all-time ever on that night.

There are some missing names from the era... BUT many of those guys lost at crucial times. Greg Page lost to David Bey. The others seemed to be unable of putting a winning streak together.

I wanted Holmes to beat Rocky's record by beating Witherspoon and Thomas, not Spinks and Marvis... But then Thomas gets beaten by bnerbick and the whole merry-go-round was not as simple as it looks.

Holmes skills and mental fortitude put him right up there in the pantheon of greats. I'd have him as the best since Ali.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Well if Holmes sucks b/c at 35 he got a close one vs Williams

- You're the only yahoo contemplating that Holmes "sucks."

The Norton and Witherspoon fights were close where his boxing ability was challenged. Many think he lost those two. Williams was not close, it should've been a wide decision for Williams at very least if not a TKO because he shut Larry's eye down good, part of the reason Holmes took such a beating, he couldn't see.

In sports terms, Williams was a green rookie just brought up from the farm team for the world series and was pitching a shutout when the field umpire blew some calls which allowed scoring runs, costing him the game. Then he got shelled in his next games and sent back to the farm team permanantly.

[dempseyfire]

If you took a poll of the knowleagable boxing people here on who won those fights I believe Holmes would recieve a fair majority vs Witherspoon and a WIDE majority vs Norton (who thinks he beat Norton besides you? I was a huge Norton fan and I have to admit Holmes won clearly)

Williams was a very athletic,fast,and skilled fighter. Yes, he had a weak chin, but Holmes wasn't a KO puncher (especially at that age) so the style matchup was tough for a Larry who had slowed down considerably (and Larry still hurt Williams bad late in the fight) The fight was close . . to suggest he was pitching a 'shut-out' is . . . .jeez louise, why am I even arguing with mr. 'I'll say something outrageous to fan the flames" . . . .

[Djanders]

I had it scored 116-113 for Holmes, last time I watched it.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

If you took a poll of the knowleagable boxing people here on who won those fights I believe Holmes would recieve a fair majority vs Witherspoon and a WIDE majority vs Norton (who thinks he beat Norton besides you?

- Press cards were mixed, and as to official results, 33% agreed with me. I could let it slide if there wasn't a pattern of being wrapped in cotton wool and gifted by officials in his career.

Add on his complete denial on the paint job done him by Michael Spinks in the first fight and the low class he showed through out his career culminating in his infantile 15min rant against Big George at his HOF induction. He was lucky to be able to attend after being kicked out the day before.

And again, you're the only one mentioning a shutout by Williams over Holmes. When you have no valid point, I've noticed that you make up nonsense to answer to improve your position. Rookie Williams did a number on him and probably deserved the TKO.

[Collins2000]

Rookie Williams did a number on him and probably deserved the TKO.

Congratulations. Your most ridiculous comment so far.

You are gonna be up there with granberry and DaveV soon as the most bigoted posters ever.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Congratulations.

- Whooop, whooop, whooop, I've won, I've won!

Lessee, Larry Legend's scintillating Rarest Of DVD selections of Scotty Frank, Marvy Frazier, Lorenzo Zanon, Alfredo Evangelista, Lucien Rodriguez, and Davey Bey. Rare footage indeed to be treasured away in a shrine for safe keeping and private viewing.

[Collins2000]

Congratulations.

- Whooop, whooop, whooop, I've won, I've won!

Lessee, Larry Legend's scintillating Rarest Of DVD selections of Scotty Frank, Marvy Frazier, Lorenzo Zanon, Alfredo Evangelista, Lucien Rodriguez, and Davey Bey. Rare footage indeed to be treasured away in a shrine for safe keeping and private viewing.

David Bey had little trouble beating Greg Page, the man who you claim Holmes ducked.

[Robinson]

And it was part of the reason for Bey getting a shot against
Holmes.

Page was his own worst enemy. His inconsistency robbed him
of getting a title shot. l like Page, and think at his best he is
a trouble for a lot of guys. But I do not think Holmes ducked
him.

If the money was there, Holmes would have fought ANYONE.
How often did he need to prove this?

[dempseyfire]

Congratulations.

- Whooop, whooop, whooop, I've won, I've won!

Lessee, Larry Legend's scintillating Rarest Of DVD selections of Scotty Frank, Marvy Frazier, Lorenzo Zanon, Alfredo Evangelista, Lucien Rodriguez, and Davey Bey. Rare footage indeed to be treasured away in a shrine for safe keeping and private viewing.

David Bey had little trouble beating Greg Page, the man who you claim Holmes ducked.

I guess his title victories over Ken Norton, Earnie Shavers, Mike Weaver, Trevor Berbick, Gerry Cooney, Tim Witherspoon, and Bonecrusher Smith are on volume #2

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

David Bey had little trouble beating Greg Page, the man who you claim Holmes ducked.

- My little friend, you take a tiny slice of history and make a tiny point as is your tiny way.

Greg Page had little problem destroying fighters that Larry either ducked or had trouble with. It's a fact Jack, go look it up, Mr. Larry never fought a single title contender until Shavers in 78 who was coming off a gut wrenching loss to Ali that some supporters claim he deserved. Mr. Larry never attempted a single unification against the half dozen or so other danger champions who were busy fighting and knocking each other off the throne.

That makes him another ABC champ, but guess what, Mr. Larry set the record for the longest lived ABC heavy champ ever. And here we thought there were no more great feats of history to be uncovered!

[Robinson]

I guess in some ways all those HW's that drew the colour line are merely 'ABC' champs.

And what of just being an ABC champ...Holmes is still regardless of titles and accolades
one of the best HWs ever. ;)

[Collins2000]

David Bey had little trouble beating Greg Page, the man who you claim Holmes ducked.

Greg Page had little problem destroying fighters that Larry either ducked or had trouble with. It's a fact Jack, go look it up

I seem to recall he didn't destroy Tim Witherspoon.

Heck, he couldn't even get past Trevor Berbick.

If anyone needs to look it up, son, it's you. And preferably before you make your next ignorant statement.

But then again, you prefer to live in a fantasy world talking about shite like Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson having a secret fight in Canada...