Tyson - Ali

alrightjim · Post by **alrightjim** » 17 Jul 2004, 19:58

First, we have to identify which Ali and which Tyson we are referring to. The Ali a lot of generation X guys really underestimate was the Ali of the 1960's. They never saw him except in old film clips. This Ali was awesome. To see that Ali is to understand true boxing greatness.

The Tyson that would fight this Ali was the Tyson that demolishes Marvis Frazier, the Tyson that made Berbick walk real funny and fall down a lot. That Tyson was awesome, clearly one of the purest, must fearsome fighting machines ever to prizefight.

Put the two in the ring giving each the credit and respect they deserve for who they were. Ali wins in my opinion, because Tyson gets frustrated and desperate, two things he never developed the character and maturity to fight his way through. Tyson had the one plan, and it was a beautiful plan few people could survive. Ali had many plans, he would adapt, he would survive, and he would expose the inflexibility of Tyson's attack. Maybe Tyson would make the mistake of calling him "Clay." He'd be punished unmercifully by that wicked jab for that.

Flabby* · Post by Flabby* » 18 Jul 2004, 02:14

dempseyfire wrote:
Flabby* wrote:So many people think ALi had quicker hand speed than Tyson, but in my opinion, there is no way Ali had faster hand speed, Tyson had a near perfect atheletic body. He lifted weights and posessed explosive movements, whereas Ali just had a normal body, his lack of muscle, and abdominal muscles (center of power) will have made his hand speed far slower than a prime Tyson. Not to mention Tyson had more muscle in a smaller area of arm space (shorter arms, more muscle) which would make his arm even more devastating.

With a speed advantage, Tyson would KO Ali.
If Ali tried to dance, Tyson would wear him down like he did with Tyrell Biggs and oh so many other tall opponents he faced. If Ali tried to jab, then Tyson would still KO him like he did with Holmes. If Ali tried to Clinch Tyson would do his trademark right to the body and upper cut to the head. If Ali tried to rope-a-dope, remember how Frazier banged his arms so hard he couldn't do it? Well imagine a Tyson banging on the arms, it would be many more times devastating.

As for the critics:

Tillis vs Tyson: It was the early part of his career, he had lack of experience.
Tucker vs Tyson: ?? Tyson led by a large points margin
Smith vs Tyson: Tyson led by a large points margin
Thomas vs Tyson: Tyson dodged Thomas's punches with ease and KO'ed him brutally.

Everyone has bad fights, i got just name a few of ALi's:

Ali vs Cooper: Ali was in good shape and in the early part of his career, cooper dropped him, tyson was never dropped in the early part of his career.
Light heavyweight Doug Jones vs Ali: Jones hit Ali with many hard punches.

A short heavyweight Joe Frazier beat ali, Tyson was a much better fighter than Frazier and the same type almost.
Don't know how you throw out the Tillis fight to a young Tyson when you point to the Cooper fight (was Ali even over 200 lbs for the fight?, he hadn;t even filled out yet). Ali lacked abdominal muscles??? The guy let top HWs pound his stomach and he laughed. The guy had one of the strongest mid-sections in boxing history. You seem to think someone 'ripped' like Tyson must be a better athlete then Ali. Ali and Tyson were both phenomenal physical specimens. Ali was extreamly strong as well. And Tyson in his early years didn't lift many weights at all-that was the way his body was-he looks like that at 13 years old. When he did start hitting the weights big time in the 90s it just made him bulky and slowed him down.
Clinching-This was perhaps Tyson's greatest weakness. He was VERY easy to tie up.
The Frazier comparison-I strongly dis-agree Tyson was a better fighter then Frazier. He had an edge on Frazier in speed and power but that was it. Frazier had much better, consistant upper body and head movement, making him harder to hit. He got stronger as the fight went on, whereas Tyson's activity dwindled as the fight went on. Frazier worked the body much more then Tyson ever did, which would benefit Ali a great deal in a fight with Tyson. Plus perhaps most importantly there was no quit in Frazier. The guy would try to win with every ounce of himself until he collapsed. Tyson on the other hand got discouraged easily, he would stay in there but he tried in a futle way in which he knew he could not win, and the guy couldn't change strategy if his life depended on it. ( Holyfield 1, Lewis, Douglas). Against all those guys, he just kept plodding foward and getting hit with the jab. He was a sucker for counter-punchers.

some other dude mentioned tillis so i decided to..
anyway, if u look at ali, he had absolute lack of abdominal muscles, and tyson did lift weights, at age thirteen he benchpressed 100kgs.
Imagine a prime Tyson in good motivation, a well motivated tyson would be better than frazier, tyson had a size, speed, power and skill advantage over frazier, if fraziers left hooks could stun ali, imagine a arm which cud at age 13 move a 100kg mass do you ali. In Tyson's prime he moved his head much faster than Frazier. Frazier always took quite a few rounds to get rolling, if he faced Tyson, by the time he got warmed up it would already be too late. Marvis Frazier had the exact same style as Joe, and Tyson simply saw how to deal with that.. simply deal an uppercut when he went low. Frazier's style wud have lasted 30 seconds in the ring with Tyson. At age 13 Tyson could push up a 100kg weight.. imagine in his prime at age 20.. he cud hit harder than foreman.

aliwasthegreatest · Post by **aliwasthegreatest** » 18 Jul 2004, 04:31

Ali by tko around 9-10 because he would frustratew tyson to the point where tyson would just throw his bombs and i don't think he could hurt ali any more than foreman did

JC · Post by JC » 18 Jul 2004, 04:36

Flabby* wrote:some other dude mentioned tillis so i decided to..
anyway, if u look at ali, he had absolute lack of abdominal muscles, and tyson did lift weights, at age thirteen he benchpressed 100kgs.
Imagine a prime Tyson in good motivation, a well motivated tyson would be better than frazier, tyson had a size, speed, power and skill advantage over frazier, if fraziers left hooks could stun ali, imagine a arm which cud at age 13 move a 100kg mass do you ali. In Tyson's prime he moved his head much faster than Frazier. Frazier always took quite a few rounds to get rolling, if he faced Tyson, by the time he got warmed up it would already be too late. Marvis Frazier had the exact same style as Joe, and Tyson simply saw how to deal with that.. simply deal an uppercut when he went low. Frazier's style wud have lasted 30 seconds in the ring with Tyson. At age 13 Tyson could push up a 100kg weight.. imagine in his prime at age 20.. he cud hit harder than foreman.

Lifting 100kg and and punching hard is not the same thing, having muscular arms and punching hard is not the same thing, power comes from leverage. In a properly exicuted power punch the arm is the end of a chain of movement involving the fighters whole body. In benchpressing 100kg you use mainly your chest/arms and shoulders, fighters who punch from the shoulder just using there arms do not punch hard hence the term 'arm punches.' I'm not arguing that strength is important for a fighter, Lennox lewis could probobly bench more than
Tyson and he used his strength to hold off opponents if he was in trouble (like against Vitali) and to manhandle smaller opponents, but does that mean his wieghtlifting strength meant he punched harder than Louis, Shavers or Tyson I'd say no in all three cases.

IronMikeTyson · Post by **IronMikeTyson** » 18 Jul 2004, 08:15

Ali is the definition of a true BOXER. Not out to hurt anybody, just out to trade fists with an opponent and beat them technically; both with his abilities and with his mind. Tyson on the other hand, is the definition of a fighter. Raw, powerful spurts of power capped off with unrelenting fury and out to mash in skulls. In Mike's 56 career fights, the average fight has lasted just under 4 rounds, with almost 80% of them coming from KO. That's just sick. Ali had a lot of his fights go a lot of rounds, and some of those fights that went a lot of rounds were against opposition that Tyson could have dropped in no more than two or three rounds.

In all honesty, watch tapes of their fights in depth. Ali was very fast and quick for his era, but watch Tyson's handspeed and head movement. It doesn't stick out as much in today's era of boxing because fighters have evolved, but compare it to Ali from back in the day and he is without a doubt quicker. Ali also tended to be more of a swatter than a heavy hitter. It wasn't so much the mustard behind the punches, it was their quick and precise location that did opponents in.

However, Ali never faced an opponent as compact as Tyson in regards to how Tyson has virtually no neck. Jolting shots that would usually snap back somebody's neck and cause trauma to the brainstem and subsequently induce disorientation would not have the same affect on Tyson. The uppercut that Tucker landed on Tyson would have knocked any other normal boxer out cold, but all it did to Tyson was lift him off the canvas and didn't really have much impact on him. I see Tyson being able to fend off quite a few of Ali's "swatting" barrages and exploding for some big shots. Regardless of what many think, Ali was never hit by somebody with the punching power of Mike Tyson. Not only was the prime Tyson physically stronger than Ali's opponents, he had much quicker hand speed. Strength and velocity are key components of force, and taking that into account, I don't think Ali would've been able to withstand a barrage of punches from Tyson; such as the one he laid on Spinks in 1988.

alrightjim · Post by **alrightjim** » 18 Jul 2004, 10:37

IronMikeTyson: In all honesty, watch tapes of their fights in depth. Ali was very fast and quick for his era, but watch Tyson's handspeed and head movement. It doesn't stick out as much in today's era of boxing because fighters have evolved, but compare it to Ali from back in the day and he is without a doubt quicker.

I have watched both fighters "in all honesty." But how honestly could you have watched them when you call yourself "IronMikeTyson?" Ali looks faster to me.

A boxer's speed can be measured in film frames. Such was done with Ali and Sugar Ray Robinson. Ali was as fast or faster than Robinson in those frame by frame comparisions. I know of no study of Tyson's handspeed, and I acknowledge his hands were quick, but my naked eye says not only were Ali's hands probably faster, his body was quicker, especially on the DEFENSE, and his ability to counter off his opponent's mistakes was far superior. Don't need to look at any film frames to determine any of that.

Ali also tended to be more of a swatter than a heavy hitter. It wasn't so much the mustard behind the punches, it was their quick and precise location that did opponents in.

And would do Tyson in.

However, Ali never faced an opponent as compact as Tyson in regards to how Tyson has virtually no neck.

Yes, he did. They called the man Joe Frazier.

Jolting shots that would usually snap back somebody's neck and cause trauma to the brainstem and subsequently induce disorientation would not have the same affect on Tyson.

Sure they would. Ask Buster Douglas.

The uppercut that Tucker landed on Tyson would have knocked any other normal boxer out cold, but all it did to Tyson was lift him off the canvas and didn't really have much impact on him.

What about the uppercut and hook Douglas landed on Tyson? That deposited him on the canvas? It had a serious effect on Iron Mike. Or don't you count that fight? Tyson have some excuse for that loss?

I see Tyson being able to fend off quite a few of Ali's "swatting" barrages and exploding for some big shots.

I see Ali doing the same thing to Tyson, and with far more frequency.

Regardless of what many think, Ali was never hit by somebody with the punching power of Mike Tyson.

Liston had the punching power of Tyson. What he hit, he hurt, real bad. But you're right, Ali was never hit by his punching power, that was the whole idea! If you believe that Tyson was faster than Liston, I will grant you that, but Liston was a much better boxer and his jab was far superior. Your assessment of Ali and his contemporaries sound like a generation x person looking back on an era he knows only from grainy film and minimizing the ability and maximizing the shortcomings of a previous generation and doing just the opposite with Tyson, hence mentioning the Tucker fight and not the Douglas fight.

Strength and velocity are key components of force, and taking that into account, I don't think Ali would've been able to withstand a barrage of punches from Tyson; such as the one he laid on Spinks in 1988.

I heartily agree. But Tyson landed those punches on Michael Spinks in 1988, not Muhammad Ali in 1966. Tyson wasn't able to withstand a barrage of punches such as the one Douglas laid on him in Tokyo, remember? Maybe Mike had some bad sushi or something. I'm sure there was a reason he wasn't "right" that night. There always is. In that same circumstance Douglas never lands a barrage of punches like that on a 25 year old Ali. In fact, the same Buster that exposed Iron Mike, gets thrashed by Muhammad Ali.

Just some stuff to think about.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 18 Jul 2004, 11:53

Flabby* wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:
Flabby* wrote:So many people think ALi had quicker hand speed than Tyson, but in my opinion, there is no way Ali had faster hand speed, Tyson had a near perfect atheletic body. He lifted weights and posessed explosive movements, whereas Ali just had a normal body, his lack of muscle, and abdominal muscles (center of power) will have made his hand speed far slower than a prime Tyson. Not to mention Tyson had more muscle in a smaller area of arm space (shorter arms, more muscle) which would make his arm even more devastating.

With a speed advantage, Tyson would KO Ali.
If Ali tried to dance, Tyson would wear him down like he did with Tyrell Biggs and oh so many other tall opponents he faced. If Ali tried to jab, then Tyson would still KO him like he did with Holmes. If Ali tried to Clinch Tyson would do his trademark right to the body and upper cut to the head. If Ali tried to rope-a-dope, remember how Frazier banged his arms so hard he couldn't do it? Well imagine a Tyson banging on the arms, it would be many more times devastating.

As for the critics:

Tillis vs Tyson: It was the early part of his career, he had lack of experience.
Tucker vs Tyson: ?? Tyson led by a large points margin
Smith vs Tyson: Tyson led by a large points margin
Thomas vs Tyson: Tyson dodged Thomas's punches with ease and KO'ed him brutally.

Everyone has bad fights, i got just name a few of ALi's:

Ali vs Cooper: Ali was in good shape and in the early part of his career, cooper dropped him, tyson was never dropped in the early part of his career.
Light heavyweight Doug Jones vs Ali: Jones hit Ali with many hard punches.

A short heavyweight Joe Frazier beat ali, Tyson was a much better fighter than Frazier and the same type almost.
Don't know how you throw out the Tillis fight to a young Tyson when you point to the Cooper fight (was Ali even over 200 lbs for the fight?, he hadn;t even filled out yet). Ali lacked abdominal muscles??? The guy let top HWs pound his stomach and he laughed. The guy had one of the strongest mid-sections in boxing history. You seem to think someone 'ripped' like Tyson must be a better athlete then Ali. Ali and Tyson were both phenomenal physical specimens. Ali was extreamly strong as well. And Tyson in his early years didn't lift many weights at all-that was the way his body was-he looks like that at 13 years old. When he did start hitting the weights big time in the 90s it just made him bulky and slowed him down.
Clinching-This was perhaps Tyson's greatest weakness. He was VERY easy to tie up.
The Frazier comparison-I strongly dis-agree Tyson was a better fighter then Frazier. He had an edge on Frazier in speed and power but that was it. Frazier had much better, consistant upper body and head movement, making him harder to hit. He got stronger as the fight went on, whereas Tyson's activity dwindled as the fight went on. Frazier worked the body much more then Tyson ever did, which would benefit Ali a great deal in a fight with Tyson. Plus perhaps most importantly there was no quit in Frazier. The guy would try to win with every ounce of himself until he collapsed. Tyson on the other hand got discouraged easily, he would stay in there but he tried in a futle way in which he knew he could not win, and the guy couldn't change strategy if his life depended on it. ( Holyfield 1, Lewis, Douglas). Against all those guys, he just kept plodding foward and getting hit with the jab. He was a sucker for counter-punchers.
some other dude mentioned tillis so i decided to..
anyway, if u look at ali, he had absolute lack of abdominal muscles, and tyson did lift weights, at age thirteen he benchpressed 100kgs.
Imagine a prime Tyson in good motivation, a well motivated tyson would be better than frazier, tyson had a size, speed, power and skill advantage over frazier, if fraziers left hooks could stun ali, imagine a arm which cud at age 13 move a 100kg mass do you ali. In Tyson's prime he moved his head much faster than Frazier. Frazier always took quite a few rounds to get rolling, if he faced Tyson, by the time he got warmed up it would already be too late. Marvis Frazier had the exact same style as Joe, and Tyson simply saw how to deal with that.. simply deal an uppercut when he went low. Frazier's style wud have lasted 30 seconds in the ring with Tyson. At age 13 Tyson could push up a 100kg weight.. imagine in his prime at age 20.. he cud hit harder than foreman.

Man, lifting weights and punching power are two completly different things. You can show me a guy who benches 400 but get him in the ring and he can punch like a big sissy. Tyson punched hard but he did not hit as hard as Foreman or Shavers. Ask Tillis or Holmes or Holyfield who faced one of those guys and Tyson and they will all say Foreman and Shavers were harder punchers.
You seem to think you must have a six pack to have a hard as stone mid-section. Some people's bodies just don't give them a 6 pack, but they have very strong abdomines. Ali was one of those people-if you think this guy didn't do gazillion crunches and sit-ups, you haven't seen many of his fights when he lets guys flair away at his stomach. If Ali didn't have a strong mid-section he would've gotten knocked out many times by body blows.
To compare Joe to his son Marvis is just plain wrong. Marvis didn't have half the skill or chin of his father. And you say Frazier started slow compared to Tyson starting fast-so what??? I would much rather face a fast started who slowed down through the fight then a slow starter who increased his work-rate and got stronger as the fight went on . . . .

IronMikeTyson · Post by **IronMikeTyson** » 18 Jul 2004, 12:38

I agree. Lifting weights & being strong in that regard does not automatically equal a stronger puncher. I know guys who are physically stronger than me in a weightroom setting but get them in the ring and it feels like they're blowing kisses at you rather than hitting you. Now, if you work on coordination and getting decent snap in the punches, being strong can definitely help out but you have to work at it. You can't just bench press 400 pounds or more and go out and expect to tee off and mame people with no technique.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 18 Jul 2004, 13:20

...good arguments on both sides.

still...my opinion (and that's all it really is)..ali would chat with the tv cameramen and wave at friends at ringside while making a fool of tyson.

..and this is from someone who thinks tyson was one destructive and powerful heavyweight......

alrightjim · Post by **alrightjim** » 18 Jul 2004, 13:40

Jaclem: still...my opinion (and that's all it really is)..ali would chat with the tv cameramen and wave at friends at ringside while making a fool of tyson.

..and this is from someone who thinks tyson was one destructive and powerful heavyweight......

Hi Jaclem. I see it being a very close fight, a bitter battle, but I do see Ali decisioning Tyson. I do see him playing to the media and the crowd and coming up with some cutesy nickname for Tyson, like The Ogre maybe. But the outcome is not certain, Tyson has the speed and power to reach Ali, and if Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper could left hook Ali to the canvas, so could Tyson.

But I still feel Ali is more likely to get a clear points victory. But...um, I could be wrong.

Professor X · Post by **Professor X** » 19 Jul 2004, 01:50

If "Prime" Mike couldn't knock out tall boxers like Tucker, Douglas and Bonecrusher, why should we think he could knock out Ali? Forget it.

Tyson coils up before throwing, and Hoyfield, one of the very few to notice it, beat him to the punch when he did that, usually with a left jab...Ali would do the EXACT same thing. Tyson would get frustrated...off balance. But Ali wasn't a KO King, so the fight would last into the later rounds, where Tyson would fade (Tyson doesn't have a stamina deficiency...he has a GLARING mental/concentration deficiency).

The jab does the job. Mix in some slicing right crosses, an uppercut or three, maybe all in the same sequence, and what you're left with is Muhammad Ali by late TKO (we're talking Ali of '66-'67, of "Big Cat" fame, aren't we? Give THAT Ali an opening, a shred of light, and...) or UD (11 rounds to 4).

"X"

Tyson - Ali

Ali-Tyson