Greatest Undefeated Fighter Of All-Time?

[Senya13]

In my opinion, yes . . . His amateur record was researched some years back by Christer Franzen of Sweden, and Franzen's research showed an amazing 301-6-12 record. Notice I said "arguably." Reasonable minds can differ here.

I think it's not about numbers, it's about who you fought. There are some recent amateur fighters who bragged as having similar record as what this supposed Papp's record is. But Breland fought at the highest level for a while losing just once. Don't see how Papp's record obviously filled with lots of local unknowns can be better.

[Carbo]

Lopez.

[Controversial]

Marciano . . . didn't fight for the title until his 42 fight.

How does that diminish Marciano's record? Greats from the 40s and early 50s like Pep, Robinson, Saddler, et al., all had more fights than Marciano before securing a title shot.

Back then fighters didn't fight for a title with 10-12 fights under their belt...

Controversial must be a newbie to boxing....

If you call 25+ years as a boxing fan a newbie then I guess I am.

Considering James J. Jeffries is rated as the greatest heavyweight ever by some and he only had 22 fights in total, and fought for the world title after 11 fights that sort of blows you argument out of the water.

And another all time great, Muhammed Ali was beaten by Leon Spinks who was 6-0-1 when he fought for the title.

Joe Frazier was 19-0 when he fought for the title.

[kikibalt]

Marciano . . . didn't fight for the title until his 42 fight.

How does that diminish Marciano's record? Greats from the 40s and early 50s like Pep, Robinson, Saddler, et al., all had more fights than Marciano before securing a title shot.

Back then fighters didn't fight for a title with 10-12 fights under their belt...

Controversial must be a newbie to boxing....


If you call 25+ years as a boxing fan a newbie then I guess I am.

Considering James J. Jeffries is rated as the greatest heavyweight ever by some and he only had 22 fights in total, and fought for the world title after 11 fights that sort of blows you argument out of the water.

And another all time great, Muhammed Ali was beaten by Leon Spinks who was 6-0-1 when he fought for the title.

Joe Frazier was 19-0 when he fought for the title.

25 years as a boxing fan? yeah! you're a newbie....

[Controversial]

25 years as a boxing fan? yeah! you're a newbie....

So why mock that todays fighters have title fights quicker than they did in the past when the above I mentioned fought just as quick and had less fights in some cases. Not long after Marciano retired Pete Rademacher fought for the world title against Patterson in his pro debut, you can't get any quicker than that.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Never saw Jimmy Barry actually fight, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was the best P4P out of the lot.

- He also has the most fights by a long shot and one of the first ever KO artists.

His career cut out from under him after the ring death of Walter Croot which takes the heart out of Barry. Love to know more about his post fight life.

Rocky the greatest name and most storied record of the bunch, but all plenty deserving of accolades, though I've always considered Otke to be something of a farce. He does do a bang up job of blasting out a bigger fraud in Mundine, which gives him some redemption.

No need to order these fighters save for some having a deep need to compile a numerical list to simplify their understanding. They were all great in their fashions in their day.

[raylawpc]

In my opinion, yes . . . His amateur record was researched some years back by Christer Franzen of Sweden, and Franzen's research showed an amazing 301-6-12 record. Notice I said "arguably." Reasonable minds can differ here.

I think it's not about numbers, it's about who you fought. There are some recent amateur fighters who bragged as having similar record as what this supposed Papp's record is. But Breland fought at the highest level for a while losing just once. Don't see how Papp's record obviously filled with lots of local unknowns can be better.

I guess the term "reasonable minds can differ" has no application when one disagrees with you, huh, Senya?

Papp won three Olympic Gold Medals, two Europeans amateur championships and 10 Hungarian amateur titles. I'm sure that not all of those opponents were "local unknowns" just as I'm sure all of breland's opponents weren't at the highest level.

[raylawpc]

[Barry's] career cut out from under him after the ring death of Walter Croot which takes the heart out of Barry. Love to know more about his post fight life.

If I recall correctly, after retiring from the ring, Barry worked as a clerk in Cook County, Illinois government until he retired due to poor health. He died in the mid-1940s. I don't recall if he stayed connected in any way with boxing in Chicago, although I believe he assisted in self-defense training for American solders during WWI.

[The Great John L]

In my opinion, yes . . . His amateur record was researched some years back by Christer Franzen of Sweden, and Franzen's research showed an amazing 301-6-12 record. Notice I said "arguably." Reasonable minds can differ here.

I think it's not about numbers, it's about who you fought. There are some recent amateur fighters who bragged as having similar record as what this supposed Papp's record is. But Breland fought at the highest level for a while losing just once. Don't see how Papp's record obviously filled with lots of local unknowns can be better.

I guess the term "reasonable minds can differ" has no application when one disagrees with you, huh, Senya?

Papp won three Olympic Gold Medals, two Europeans amateur championships and 10 Hungarian amateur titles. I'm sure that not all of those opponents were "local unknowns" just as I'm sure all of breland's opponents weren't at the highest level.

The very nature of amateur boxing is that you fight a lot "local unknowns". However, when you're at the top of the amateur hierarchy for as long as Pap you tend to fight a lot less of the "local unknowns".

[Senya13]

Not when you are fighting in Eastern Europe during that time, you continue to fight a lot of unknowns world-ranking-wise.

[The Great John L]

Not when you are fighting in Eastern Europe during that time, you continue to fight a lot of unknowns world-ranking-wise.

Right. Many were probably unknown to the Western fan, but most were probably very good East block amateurs, which we all know means they were most likely damn good fighters.

[bjermaine]

Not when you are fighting in Eastern Europe during that time, you continue to fight a lot of unknowns world-ranking-wise.

Right. Many were probably unknown to the Western fan, but most were probably very good East block amateurs, which we all know means they were most likely damn good fighters.

i know papp was a great fighter but this topic is about who is the greatest undefeated fighter as a pro. papp was a hell of an amateur but can't rank as a pro with the other fighters listed. also, why do you think none of the cuban olympic greats have gotten into the hall? papp is in based on what he did in the olympics.

[raylawpc]

Not when you are fighting in Eastern Europe during that time, you continue to fight a lot of unknowns world-ranking-wise.

Right. Many were probably unknown to the Western fan, but most were probably very good East block amateurs, which we all know means they were most likely damn good fighters.

i know papp was a great fighter but this topic is about who is the greatest undefeated fighter as a pro. papp was a hell of an amateur but can't rank as a pro with the other fighters listed. also, why do you think none of the cuban olympic greats have gotten into the hall? papp is in based on what he did in the olympics.

Why not? He was undefeated as a pro, the European middleweight champion, and tagged to fight for the world title before Hungary pulled his travel visa and wouldn't let him leave the country to fight. Reasonable minds may differ, but I think Papp would have had a good shot at winning the middleweight title. How long he would have stayed champion is a good question given his age, but I think he would have had an excellent chance to win the world title. The fact he didn't wasn't his fault.

[bjermaine]

Why not? He was undefeated as a pro, the European middleweight champion, and tagged to fight for the world title before Hungary pulled his travel visa and wouldn't let him leave the country to fight. Reasonable minds may differ, but I think Papp would have had a good shot at winning the middleweight title. How long he would have stayed champion is a good question given his age, but I think he would have had an excellent chance to win the world title. The fact he didn't wasn't his fault.

true but i'm just saying looking at his pro record and who he beat, it's hard to put him with the other fighters. but like you said, it wasn't his fault. same goes for the great cuban amateurs.

[Senya13]

They were so good, that you only get the same several names in all articles about Papp (and some of them he lost to). As a pro Papp never faced or beat a single Ring top10 ranked fighter, it's hard to expect from him to win a title with such impressive "credentials". Even back then amateur boxing was a different sport due to bouts duration.

[Collins2000]

Has Terry Marsh been mentioned?

[belowthebelt]

Sven Ottke... one of the only guys to truly beat the best his division had to offer & came out on top each time out.

I'd love to see Ottke-Hopkins, even now it would be a barnburner

ottke is joke in my opinion, never fought without his own personal ref and judges. lost 3 times in my eyes

[My2Sense]

Sven Ottke... one of the only guys to truly beat the best his division had to offer & came out on top each time out.

I'd love to see Ottke-Hopkins, even now it would be a barnburner

ottke is joke in my opinion, never fought without his own personal ref and judges. lost 3 times in my eyes

Agreed. I don't think I've ever seen Ottke get a decision that I didn't think was questionable, or at the very least could've gone the other way. Brewer, Johnson, Mitchell, Larsen, etc.

[Controversial]

Has Terry Marsh been mentioned?

Haha, no he's not been mentioned but I think he's miles away from being the greatest undefeated fighter of all time

[Controversial]

Sven Ottke... one of the only guys to truly beat the best his division had to offer & came out on top each time out.

I'd love to see Ottke-Hopkins, even now it would be a barnburner

You can't be serious? Ottke was a joke, watch his fight with Robin Reid. That must rate as being one of the most blatantly biased refereering ever. Reid clearly knocked him down, the ref ruled it a slip and every time Reid hit him the ref warned Reid for slapping, then deducted points from him !!!

That fight was a joke and so is Ottke. Never fought outside Germany because he knew he couldn't lose there. He had several other dodgy wins over Larsen, Brewer and Mitchell. He wasn't undefeated in my eyes just very very lucky.

[metchampion]

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

[giacomino]

Re: Ottke. His real record was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 29-5 rather than 34-0. Dude made a living on home cooking. Wouldn't dare fight outside of Germany because he wouldn't have gotten his customary advantage. To consider his record better than a four-division champion like Mayweather or a dominating two-division champion like Lopez is silly.

[My2Sense]

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

I'll see your Reg Kray and raise you this guy:
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

D

[bjermaine]

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

[Goodnight, Irene]

^^^With your knowledge of boxing history, who can say if you're being serious or joking?