~Battle of the Jacks~ December 11, 1921~7th Rd KO

[Collins2000]

I think I had it as a draw to be honest.
I shall re check later this eve @

I had it 7-5 Ali.

[jmc617]

Damn who would ya call or e-mail nowadays to verify that article in the fightbeat main office was real. Is Lew Askins even alive still?

Also, not sure of the relationship between Lew and Dempsey, but I am willing to bet after Dempsey made that comment about he always knew he would beat Johnson Lew put it in 4th gear at the wrong time overwhelmed the champ just alittle and Jack said "Not now" meaning scram kid not now... Who knows???

Nothing on E-bay anymore for that issue either. Maybe a BDE historian can lead us in the right direction.

[dempseyfire]

It looks fairly certain from JMC's research that this "article" is a fake. Maybe Lew didn't realize it was.

I had no personal beef with the article itself, but found it . . .let's say perplexing . . .that any rational person with a knowledge of the history of boxing at the time, could believe such a clearly bogus piece. " . .one of the great fistic bouts of the ages" . . .that alone tells you it's a bunch of bull-larky.

[Cap]

I considered Lew Eskin a friend of mine. He was no fool. I recall asking him about this article when it first came out and he said he ran it because it was interesting, but he didn't believe it could be real. Any fight featuring the Heavyweight champion of the world would have been headline news in every paper in North America, particularly if the other participant was the notorious Jack Johnson. Saskatoon isn't a colony on the Moon after all. It had a pretty lively sporting community in those days and boxing cards were usually reported in other provincial dailies. It would be absolutely impossible for a Dempsey-Johnson fight to be ignored by those papers, and anyone who believes it could be is delusional and should immediately seek medical help.

'nuff said.

Cap

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Any fight featuring the Heavyweight champion of the world would have been headline news in every paper in North America

- Might be time to read the article for content. It was never presented as any fight.

Moreover, since nobody has come forward with the copy Eskin presented as the article to be refuted, so there are plenty of draws in the deck. One can imagine Johnson hounding Dempsey at his training camps for example given the plethora of public challenges offered through the press. If the fight wasn't in Saskatoon, perhaps Monterrey, the possibilities for private fights are endless. It appears at least some talked about the fight given the nature of the article.

The Article never attempts to address the time of the fight itself. We only have the print date and a copy of an article which may or may not exist. It doesn't establish more than possibilities. I put down Dec 11,1921 because that's the date given on the alleged article, not the fight itself which may have occured months before for example.

For the longest time it was accepted that Johnson threw the Willard fight until the film surfaced highlighting the KO. It strikes me that the majority here are conventional, status quo, button down type of thinkers regurgitating work done previously without question. It boggles the mind to consider your dismissive, authoritative dialogue on Johnson/Willard had the tape never surfaced.

I don't just believe in anything, least of all what some of you have to say. I do believe in looking at credible possibilities, and this fight was possible. Dempsey more than anyone loved a good unofficial dust up in the ring, or out of the ring in his Kid Blackie days.

[Collins2000]

Any fight featuring the Heavyweight champion of the world would have been headline news in every paper in North America

- Might be time to read the article for content. It was never presented as any fight.


For the longest time it was accepted that Johnson threw the Willard fight until the film surfaced highlighting the KO. It strikes me that the majority here are conventional, status quo, button down type of thinkers regurgitating work done previously without question. It boggles the mind to consider your dismissive, authoritative dialogue on Johnson/Willard had the tape never surfaced.

You're clutching at straws now, mate.

[dempseyfire]

Any fight featuring the Heavyweight champion of the world would have been headline news in every paper in North America

I don't believe in anything, .

Amen to that!

[jmc617]

I can assure you from personal experience that Lew - may he rest in peace - was no saint. But he was a great guy to hang out with!!

I'll say, too, that he would probably be thrilled that the article generated this much discussion.

I considered Lew Eskin a friend of mine. He was no fool. I recall asking him about this article when it first came out and he said he ran it because it was interesting, but he didn't believe it could be real.
Cap

I didn't know Lew, who I just found out passed away (didn't catch that raylawpc entry until now), had such a distingushed career. He was a referee, judge and NJ HOF'r, as well as writer and owner of a national publication.

I wonder who bought the rights to fightbeat magazine or where the original copy of the article that Lew found cut out in a scrapbook is now. Fake or not I would still love to see a copy of the actual article but for now I guess the fightbeat piece is good enough.

I was speaking with a few people with experience about the 'stop the press' possibility as well and all of them seem to agree with a story like this they would have just let it run especially with deadlines put on the writers, printing department and editors on a daily basis especially back then because everything took longer than today. An editors note or follow-up story would be run in the next day that said it may have not been accurate. I am not sure if there were late editions back then like they have today but that is the only possibility I see.

Still trying to track this writer from back then Roy Pearson can't find anything on him.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I was speaking with a few people with experience about the 'stop the press' possibility as well and all of them seem to agree with a story like this they would have just let it run especially with deadlines put on the writers, printing department and editors on a daily basis especially back then because everything took longer than today. An editors note or follow-up story would be run in the next day that said it may have not been accurate. I am not sure if there were late editions back then like they have today but that is the only possibility I see.

- Working the presses was hard, grueling work in part because of the constant resetting of type.

Everyone has seen the movies with the paper boy crying out, "Extra, extra, read all about it." Well, that a classic example of resetting the press for a "hot off the press" story that sells papers.

On the surface it appears nothing on the fight is in Dec issues of Brooklyn Eagle. I doubt anyone on this forum knows how many editions of the actual archival issues were saved, including those Extra copies. Don't think the Fightbeat article even claims the fight appears in the Eagle. I doubt they have a perfect collection, but I appreciate the research done on those Dec issues as it lends context to the article.

Also makes me wonder what could be found in Saskatoon. Oddly enough I met a German couple who were now Canadians living in Saskatoon a couple of years ago and I discussed this fight with the guy, telling him I hoped to visit some day for that express purpose of uncovering something.

Thing is, there is no indication of what paper Mr. Pearson was reporting for, so possibilities are still endless. Clipping might be in the attic of Mr. Pearson's great grandchildren somewhere in God's green acres, completely obscured from the public like any self respecting diamond in the rough should be.

[Djanders]

Evidently, Ray Pearson worked for the Chicago Tribune at one time.

“We had a lot of fun,” he said, “...and I came in contact with a lot of other handicapped (people).” Eventually, however, Lee began working for Ray Pearson, a former sports writer for the Chicago Tribune, who went into business for himself, buying small newspapers.

Source: http://www.russell-publications.com/arc ... pstory.htm

[HomicideHenry]

I guess finding the truth on this article is about as telling as knights looking for the Holy Grail during the Crusades.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Evidently, Ray Pearson worked for the Chicago Tribune at one time.

“We had a lot of fun,” he said, “...and I came in contact with a lot of other handicapped (people).” Eventually, however, Lee began working for Ray Pearson, a former sports writer for the Chicago Tribune, who went into business for himself, buying small newspapers.

Source: http://www.russell-publications.com/arc ... pstory.htm

- Much thanks for the link. I used it as the basis to pen a request to the editor of the Tribune for assistance through the "appropriate" department.

Nothing back as of yet. I'll wait a bit longer, and then maybe hunt around the Tribune website to see if I can find the appropriate department. I thought if I could get the editor interested, I'd have better success. Alas, the editor probably has a team of secretaries screen his email which means Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson means zippo to them and the big heave ho to tos bin.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Evidently, Ray Pearson worked for the Chicago Tribune at one time.

“We had a lot of fun,” he said, “...and I came in contact with a lot of other handicapped (people).” Eventually, however, Lee began working for Ray Pearson, a former sports writer for the Chicago Tribune, who went into business for himself, buying small newspapers.

Source: http://www.russell-publications.com/arc ... pstory.htm

- WHOOOOOOHOOOOOOOO-----You'll be happy to know this little nugget has yielded more finds.

A kindly angel by the name of Eric Gillespie with the Robert R. McCormick Research Center got back to me today. Center seems to be a sub-Tribune org charged with compiling the archives during the reign of Tribune editor RR McCormick. The focus, alas, is corporate and business news, yet still, Mr. Gillespie unearthed some tasty tidbits.

To Wit:

"" Ray C. Pearson is first listed in the January 1, 1902 Chicago Tribune Thirteenth Family Dinner program. ""
"" Ray Pearson had signed stories under the “The Fight Game” column in the Tribune Sports Section. ""
"" In the 1920s, the Chicago Tribune published in-house employee directories. In the April 1, 1920 Chicago Tribune Directory of Employees, Ray C. Pearson is listed for “Fights” under the “Sporting News” section. However, Mr. Pearson is not listed in the Tribune Employees Directory as of June 30, 1925. ""

So, assuming the above to be true, a fair assumption, Ray "C" Pearson wrote a long time boxing column and seems to have been employed with the Tribune at the 1921 date of the fight.

Boys, not saying this info proves anything, but the cold, icy trail beckons with a warm and fuzzy glow to it now. Perhaps the MOTHER OF ALL LODES to be struck with due diligence and patience and the LEGEND that is boxing at the start of these Roaring 20s will continue to grow.

[Collins2000]

Wow, I just shat myself with excitement!

[Ezzard]

Its a great story.

[wouter]

It's a hoax - note how the full name of the newspaper is curiously absent in those clippings. I am shocked at how many people are willing to swallow it.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Wow, I just shat myself with excitement!

- Pretty much the status quo for you.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

It's a hoax - note how the full name of the newspaper is curiously absent in those clippings. I am shocked at how many people are willing to swallow it.

- Since you are so shocked... ...perhaps you can use this defibrillation back to life to list those who have "swallowed it".......

In the meantime, surely I would be put in fatal cardiac arrest by the work needed to pull out all my curiosity clippings with no attributions saved from my newspaper to scan and post.

I'm quite fond of the one where Steve Jobs tweaks Michael Dell in a company wide email after Apple stock famously surpassed Dell stock in market capitalization a few years back. Dell was quoted when asked about a floundering Apple in 1997, "I'd shut it down and give the money back to the shareholders."

Darn it all though, I didn't cut that unattributed clipping out of my newspaper to back up the unattributed clipping that I did cut, so I can't properly prove a darned thing........ 8)

[Ezzard]

It's a hoax - note how the full name of the newspaper is curiously absent in those clippings. I am shocked at how many people are willing to swallow it.

I agree, but it's entertaining...

[Collins2000]

It's a hoax - note how the full name of the newspaper is curiously absent in those clippings. I am shocked at how many people are willing to swallow it.

- Since you are so shocked... ...perhaps you can use this defibrillation back to life to list those who have "swallowed it".......

Well there's you for a start.

And Rufus. But he's young and lives in a bit of a dream world so he can be excused.

So, it looks like there are just two of you, mate, who actually believe this happened



Funniest line in the whole thread? When you said something like "Do you think they could have stopped and restarted the presses so it wouldn't be in every issue?" Fekk me, what an imagination!

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Funniest line in the whole thread? When you said something like "Do you think they could have stopped and restarted the presses so it wouldn't be in every issue?" Fekk me, what an imagination!

- Newspapers have always stopped and restarted presses with new content. No imagination needed, but you obviously can't keep up with the thread.

I was asked to post this article and it has generated some good discussion with at least 3 quotes of Johnson calling out Dempsey on or around the date of the article and a verification of the career of the alleged author.

Run along now, nap time beckons.

[HomicideHenry]

And Rufus. But he's young and lives in a bit of a dream world so he can be excused.

I just think its buyable not because Dempsey won, but because during this long period of inactivity of his, he was dropped by Johnson. I would think if it all was some fabricated tale, wouldnt Dempsey have been more heroic or invincible and would have ultimately destroyed Johnson bell to bell, considering Johnson was considered such a heel? You would think the "Giant Killer, Slayer of Ogres" Dempsey would be the perfect 'White Hope' to finally put the nail in the coffin for Johnson, but no, the former aged champion almost stopped Dempsey midway through the fight and it was actually competitive!

Yeah I may be young, only 23, and as far as living in a dream world, I remember a saying that goes "Would you rather believe a lie that brings a smile, or a cold hard truth that brings a tear?", not to say that is the case with the Johnson/Dempsey fight, but it is something great to hold on to, that maybe a missing part of history was lost between two men who were deemed the GOAT in their eras. In a sense, this is almost like the 1969 meeting between Marciano and Ali, though their "fight" wasn't a real one. But this one between Johnson and Dempsey implies it was, at least as an exhibition.

As far as the evidence that is lacking in this scenario, its been 'proven' thus far in this thread that the Brooklyn Eagle and the writer in question did exist, and its been proven that the Tribune existed, as well as the writer. Fight offers from Johnson to Dempsey around that time period are out there, and both Dempsey and Johnson fought exhibitions in Canada around that same time as well.

To me, its leading more and more to the PLAUSIBLE category than anything else.

[Collins2000]

As far as the evidence that is lacking in this scenario, its been 'proven' thus far in this thread that the Brooklyn Eagle and the writer in question did exist, and its been proven that the Tribune existed, as well as the writer.

Rufus my man, it's a fekkin huge leap of faith from there though to believing in a secret fight between the two biggest names in boxing at the time and which has been successfully kept secret for 80+ years.

You agree?

(PS I am not going to mention that video you are supposed to be making to get into the TPS).

(PPS there is no hope for BRR for obvious reasons but I think you will come to your senses on this matter eventually)

[Collins2000]

I was asked to post this article and it has generated some good discussion with at least 3 quotes of Johnson calling out Dempsey on or around the date of the article and a verification of the career of the alleged author.

None of those things were in doubt at the time you posted the article.

They go no way towards 'proving' this secret fight ever took place.

[HomicideHenry]

Hey, all it takes is faith the size of a mustard seed to move mountains (hypothetically speaking of course).

Sure, its one of those things that make someone highly doubt the match ever happening, but then again, if it was only an exhibition, then its possible it went under the radar. I mean, hell, how many people recall Jake LaMotta's exhibition with his friend Rocky Graziano, or George Dixon's exhibition with Walter Edgerton? Not many, but it did in fact happen.