What punishment would you give Margarito and his trainer?

[Poncey]

It had to be the Trainers idea, Ban Him for Life. Should never work again C**t

x2

No evidence has been found of Margarito knowing that the two elemtns were in his wraps.

[Carbo]

I don't believe anything was truly up with the gloves/loading. If Margarito really was loading those gloves it would take less than 1000punches and outweighing his opponent by 10lbs to do some actual damage to them

I think they tried to use dried gauze that would stick better to protect the hands but they unwittingly broken the rules in the process

BTW Steroids/EPO such as Mosley used is possibly as bad as loading gloves anyway

I'm no Margo fan but this is being spun out of proportion when you actually look at the facts it doesn't stack up.

Now, hang on a second. They have found sulphur and calcium, two of the main ingredients of plaster of paris, on the wraps.

At the time, two 'pads' were found in the wraps, still damp and with white specks found suspended in the liquid.

Now, you may discredit the eye witness reports, but the tests which found the sulphur and calcium were done by a US Department of Justice lab, and, when comibined with the eye-witness reports, would seem to me fairly conclusive.

I'm open to suggestions as to how, P-N, those same results can be caused by "dry gauze".

What is being spun out of proportion is that the seeming acceptance that he had been loading for some time, and certainly for Cotto.

That's absurd.

Clearly, loading for the Mosley fight casts doubt on his previous performances, but there is no proof whatsoever, and it's not like Cotto has never been hurt before. I find it bizarre that it has almost passed as a 'fact' that Margarito was loading for Cotto. There isn't even any circumstantial evidence to suggest such.

There is no proof that the gloves were loaded against Cotto, but common sense will tell you that there is a good chance they were.

Why does common sense tell you that? I just don't get it. Just because he cheated once, doesn't mean that he cheated in any other specific fights.

[ArtOfWar]

Why does common sense tell you that? I just don't get it. Just because he cheated once, doesn't mean that he cheated in any other specific fights.

No not necessarily, but it doesn't mean he didn't either. And at the end of the day why would a 10+ year pro decide to cheat all of a sudden? Like I said the guy hired by the commission didn't even spot the illegal wrapping, so who's to say he didn't get away with it in previous bouts?

I'm not suggesting that he definitely did or didn't cheat before the Mosley fight, I'm just saying there is a fair chance he did.

[Carbo]

Why does common sense tell you that? I just don't get it. Just because he cheated once, doesn't mean that he cheated in any other specific fights.

No not necessarily, but it doesn't mean he didn't either. And at the end of the day why would a 10+ year pro decide to cheat all of a sudden? Like I said the guy hired by the commission didn't even spot the illegal wrapping, so who's to say he didn't get away with it in previous bouts?

I'm not suggesting that he definitely did or didn't cheat before the Mosley fight, I'm just saying there is a fair chance he did.

Yes, that's the point. It is suggestive that he might have, and there is no evidence that he did or didn't. That's my point.

[Autobarn]

Punishment for Margarito?

How about, make him fight Mosley again.

[forcefraser]

Surely the question is "How much did Margarito know about what was in his gloves".

Is a boxer supposed to know these things, or does he just asuume, through trust that his trainer is on the level. Surely they would feel different?? In which case he knew what was going on.

Has anyone actually asked Mosely what it felt like to get hit by the plaster of paris gloves?? he didn`t seem to fussed to be honest. Wasn`t rocked or hurt once during the fight.

Of course cheating is cheating, but Mosely was also found guilty of cheating. His trainer should be banned for certain, not sure about Margarito. A future in MMA maybe?

[Dioufy]

Has anyone actually asked Mosely what it felt like to get hit by the plaster of paris gloves?? he didn`t seem to fussed to be honest. Wasn`t rocked or hurt once during the fight.

Perhaps that's because Margarito didn't land anything upon Mosley's napper.

[Carbo]

If he cheated for a fight with a guy who was uspposed to be washed up then there is a very strong chance that he cheated versus Cotto. Cotto has been hit before, and marked up, but the extent of his marking up versus Margo was incredible considering he barely got hit early in the fight, in retrospect it reminds me of Davey Moore's face after Duran had been lacing him etc.

Cotto has been hit and hurt on many occassions, and I think that if you look at the punch stats, Margarito landed plenty in that second half, although you are right to say that he didn't land much early.

That said, if he was loading, wouldn't we have seen the effects after the first punch or so?

[GlobalBox]

If he cheated for a fight with a guy who was uspposed to be washed up then there is a very strong chance that he cheated versus Cotto. Cotto has been hit before, and marked up, but the extent of his marking up versus Margo was incredible considering he barely got hit early in the fight, in retrospect it reminds me of Davey Moore's face after Duran had been lacing him etc.

Cotto has been hit and hurt on many occassions, and I think that if you look at the punch stats, Margarito landed plenty in that second half, although you are right to say that he didn't land much early.

That said, if he was loading, wouldn't we have seen the effects after the first punch or so?

Not being an expert on loading Gloves, this is just an opinion, but I would have thought you might feel the impact early but perhaps just thinking it might have been a few good shots, surely its not much diference to a normal accumulation, except the end result is much worse.

For me its a no brainer that he was using them against Cotto for two reasons.

Cotto was a broken fighter at the end there and although he has had chin problems there is nothing wrong with the kids heart. Secondly if Mosley was able to do what he did to Margarito with nothing in the Mexican's gloves, its a fairly safe assumption that Cotto would have done an even better job.

I think he was early doors as well until the accumulation of the gloves became too much for him.

When you look at some of the punishments the athletes get for drugs and whilst it's very wrong that they do it, they are only winning a medal an depriving someone of a medal, this for christs sake could have deprived someone of sight, or god forbid a life.

Bin the guy, sound simplistic, it is, how can we expect to get people to take our sport as seriously as we do, if we can't even police a simple subject like this and it is simple, Margarito had no idea what effect his actions would have in terms of health to the other fighter, it was simply a win at all costs approach.

Did he care, did he f***

Out the cheat, christ I don't normally get angry about anything but this really makes me pissed.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Cotto was boxing circles around Margarito, and hardly took any shots in the first six rounds, however, he did sustain a broken nose in something like the fourth (I think) from an uppercut - and although it wasn't until the 8th he really started getting hit, ever shot seemed to mark him up badly.

Margarito's cornerman cheated, and I'm afraid by association, so did Margarito. If he didn't know about it, then I feel sorry for him - but unfortunately he will be tarred with the brush of a cheat for the rest of his career.

His trainer should be banned for life - and Margarito should serve at least a two year ban from fighting for a world title.

[clubberlang]

Clearly, loading for the Mosley fight casts doubt on his previous performances, but there is no proof whatsoever, and it's not like Cotto has never been hurt before. I find it bizarre that it has almost passed as a 'fact' that Margarito was loading for Cotto. There isn't even any circumstantial evidence to suggest such.[/quote]

If Margarito hadn’t cheated before then why would team Margarito load his gloves against Mosley (who prefight is viewed as a much less serious threat then Cotto)? Common sense tells you they’ve done it before.

Ban them for life.

[Carbo]

The bottom line is that Margo has been proven to be a cheat, and this casts doubts over his entire career.

Agreed.

[stujones]

If somehow Team Margarito confess to everything, and admit the crime occured vs Cotto also (I'm all for innocent untill proven guilty there though), then should Cotto's corner also receive a punishment for neglect?

Lets not forget, Mosley has a fantastic chin. Forrest caught him and surprisingly he was VERY badly hurt (showed great resistance to continue) but against punchers like Cotto, Oscar, and Mayorga aswell as physically bigger men like Wright - he never buckled and he took some huge whacks from these. Maybe Margarito felt he needed to cheat to hurt Mosley, but not so much Cotto - who little Zab Judah hurt on a regular basis early in their fight.

Oh yes, and Mosley was never caught cheating (to the poster who said it). He confessed (and even this MASSIVE news story, didn't make it to many boxng sites) to taking a banned substance.

[stujones]

Also, with regards to "once a cheat always a cheat" shouldn't the same be said of Mosley. Why didn't nobody say "well thats a bit dodgy", he looked finished against Mayorga, had stamina issues against Cotto but then puts in a career 2nd best performance (IMO) at the age of 37?

[stujones]

Steroids do not teach you skills, and it was his talent that did for Margo, who was always a little too 1-D for my liking. The shots Shane took from Forrest were the cleanest I have ever seen him get hit, and they were consecutive shots along the ropes. The body shot later in the fight that made him yelp was also as clean as you like. I think Shane's career dips have more to do with his back problems, he is now tailoring his style to overcome these problems. Fair play to him for that.

As Sherlock Holmes said, "Pass that opium and remove your pants, Watson." He also said something along the lines of eliminating the most improbable results, and that the one that is left, no matter how unlikely, is your answer, Ockham said something similar, but he was never on TV.

For Dempsey-Willard the answer is that a guy with very thin gloves was repeatedly hitting another guy in the head, at speed and with power, with the thin gloves. Margo got caught cheating, and is likely to have done it once before, with success, and decided to give it another go. Cotto has marked up badly, but was not getting hit earlier, and looked like a guy who had been ruined by the end of the fight. Maybe there was extra impact in those shots, and Cotto should be no longer classed as a 'quitter' in some circles.

Cotto should not be classed as a quitter in any case, I know he has been but I've disagreed with that view strongly. I still disagree with your general view on Steriods, of course they cannot teach you skills- but they can help in increasing punch velocity, stamina and strength. Loading your gloves cannot improve your skills either. Infact, and I am not attempting to defend any fighter who has done this terrible crime, should result in a slight slowering in handspeed.

I agree with your views on Margarito's ability, indeed when Mayweather was being criticised for not taking him on - I was always saying "whats Margarito done". However, whilst he might not have been hitting Cotto as hard without being loaded (although Steriods would have been equally as effective) the loaded gloves were not the reason for him hitting Cotto clean. Of course, you could counter "but if he didn't have loaded gloves, the punches wouldn't have done so much damage, meaning Cotto wouldn't have tired so quickly etc" - very true, and I would agree.... same would apply for steriod cheats, and who shouldn't then be championed... which one is currently doing.

[JDC]

They should be hit over the head with a cricket bat once daily until their ban expires. Then they might understand the disgrace of their actions.

[stujones]

Someone on the current scene made a very good point. What about other fighters the trainer works... they've fought pro should they be banned out of association? Cause in someways, if Capitello continues his stance, thats what a punishment for Margarito is. Some are saying, and I am NOT saying they are wrong (just think people with steriods should have the same treatment/stigma), that "once a cheat always a cheat" and therefore Margarito must have done it against Cotto.... would that mean all of Capitello's fighters should reap the punishment, cause they have fought - they probably had the same bandaging. Like the Balco case, eventually more than those caught confessed.

[Carbo]

Cotto was boxing circles around Margarito, and hardly took any shots in the first six rounds, however, he did sustain a broken nose in something like the fourth (I think) from an uppercut - and although it wasn't until the 8th he really started getting hit, ever shot seemed to mark him up badly.

Margarito's cornerman cheated, and I'm afraid by association, so did Margarito. If he didn't know about it, then I feel sorry for him - but unfortunately he will be tarred with the brush of a cheat for the rest of his career.

His trainer should be banned for life - and Margarito should serve at least a two year ban from fighting for a world title.

Just noticed this and it really sums up the problem: It is pure, unadulterated conjecture. There is nothing -- nothing at all -- to suggest that being marked up is automatically a result of being hit with loaded gloves.

This is simply speculative rhetoric with no foundation at all.

Margarito should get at least a 1 year ban and his trainer a 5 year-life ban. But there is unfortunately no evidence that can tie Margarito to loading against Cotto or anyone else, I'm sorry to say.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Cotto was boxing circles around Margarito, and hardly took any shots in the first six rounds, however, he did sustain a broken nose in something like the fourth (I think) from an uppercut - and although it wasn't until the 8th he really started getting hit, ever shot seemed to mark him up badly.

Margarito's cornerman cheated, and I'm afraid by association, so did Margarito. If he didn't know about it, then I feel sorry for him - but unfortunately he will be tarred with the brush of a cheat for the rest of his career.

His trainer should be banned for life - and Margarito should serve at least a two year ban from fighting for a world title.

Just noticed this and it really sums up the problem: It is pure, unadulterated conjecture. There is nothing -- nothing at all -- to suggest that being marked up is automatically a result of being hit with loaded gloves.

This is simply speculative rhetoric with no foundation at all.

Margarito should get at least a 1 year ban and his trainer a 5 year-life ban. But there is unfortunately no evidence that can tie Margarito to loading against Cotto or anyone else, I'm sorry to say.

Yes it is. Of course it is - what else it can be - how on earth could we have evidence of what happened before.

However, it is general practice in sports that if someone has set a record, or won a medal and later was found to have tested positive for a banned substance or similar - then their previous records or medals are expunged.

In this case - the equivalent is, that we assume that if Margarito cheated now, that he cheated then.

If that's unfair - tough shit - don't cheat in the first place.

[Asterix]

Has anyone actually asked Mosely what it felt like to get hit by the plaster of paris gloves?? he didn`t seem to fussed to be honest. Wasn`t rocked or hurt once during the fight.

The illegal wrapping was discovered before the fight!

[jamesmcdonnell]

Someone on the current scene made a very good point. What about other fighters the trainer works... they've fought pro should they be banned out of association? Cause in someways, if Capitello continues his stance, thats what a punishment for Margarito is. Some are saying, and I am NOT saying they are wrong (just think people with steriods should have the same treatment/stigma), that "once a cheat always a cheat" and therefore Margarito must have done it against Cotto.... would that mean all of Capitello's fighters should reap the punishment, cause they have fought - they probably had the same bandaging. Like the Balco case, eventually more than those caught confessed.

No, because there is no evidence to suggest he wrapped anyone elses hands the same way. Unless there is, that would be totally unfair.

[THEBUTCH]

Banned for life. Boxing, above all sports, should not tolerate performance enhancing drugs or tampering with gloves etc, if proven guilty

[DG.]

After this they will be even....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWOn1dFmFds

[Carbo]

Cotto was boxing circles around Margarito, and hardly took any shots in the first six rounds, however, he did sustain a broken nose in something like the fourth (I think) from an uppercut - and although it wasn't until the 8th he really started getting hit, ever shot seemed to mark him up badly.

Margarito's cornerman cheated, and I'm afraid by association, so did Margarito. If he didn't know about it, then I feel sorry for him - but unfortunately he will be tarred with the brush of a cheat for the rest of his career.

His trainer should be banned for life - and Margarito should serve at least a two year ban from fighting for a world title.

Just noticed this and it really sums up the problem: It is pure, unadulterated conjecture. There is nothing -- nothing at all -- to suggest that being marked up is automatically a result of being hit with loaded gloves.

This is simply speculative rhetoric with no foundation at all.

Margarito should get at least a 1 year ban and his trainer a 5 year-life ban. But there is unfortunately no evidence that can tie Margarito to loading against Cotto or anyone else, I'm sorry to say.

Yes it is. Of course it is - what else it can be - how on earth could we have evidence of what happened before.

Quite.

Good point.

However, it is general practice in sports that if someone has set a record, or won a medal and later was found to have tested positive for a banned substance or similar - then their previous records or medals are expunged.

In this case - the equivalent is, that we assume that if Margarito cheated now, that he cheated then.

If that's unfair - tough shit - don't cheat in the first place.

Are you sure that's the case, James? Are you sure??

Because I'm not. If a snooker player admits he threw a match, we don't expunge change every single result of every match he played in. If a football club is caught cheeting, they lose the titles that the cheating affected. The Agnelli family has controlled Juventus for many moons, yet Juve were only stripped of two of their titles, were they not?

Further, even if I'm mistaken and that is the case, I'm not sure if your comparison holds up itself. If Ben Johnson is breaking records with the help of roids, I think we would all agree it would be physically impossible for him to do so without. It is, however, possible for Margarito to win a fight without the use of loaded gloves.

Something else: not all athletes are drug tested at every race meet, or to the same standard when they are. On the other hand, Margarito will have been watched be the opposition trainer (or should have been) and a SAC official EVERY time he was in a big fight. Yet nothing was discovered earlier.

How, I wonder, was Cotto iron chinned enough to resist against plaster of paris for so long? How was Paul Williams? Cotto was marked up and rocked on a regular basis by Judah, and dropped heavily by Chop Chop Corely, for chrssakes.

I believe that the discovery casts doubt on all his fights. It also besmirches every single one of his achievements.

But it irritates me that it's almost passing into fact that he was loading against Cotto, for which, as you correctly pointed out, there is no evidence.

[stujones]

James you are not correct with your previous post... Ben Johnson's 9.79 world record was annuled, but his 9.83 record stood for a couple of years untill Johnson ADMITTED to using steriods before the world championship in 1987 - when he clocked 9.83.

Similarly, Harry "Butch" Reynolds still was the world recorder holder at 400 metres, despited testing positivie for a banned substance in 1989 - the year after he broke the record.

Only times, as far as I know, non positive tested performances have been scrapped is when the athlete has confessed to "getting away with it". Olympics I am not so sure about, because they have some different rules based on the "olympic spirit" but again, I cannot remember a person being scrapped a medal based entirely on a more recent positive test - the Irish Swimmer Michele Smith, was long associated with drug abuse, and tested positive later on in her career - she kept her medals, as did Linford Christie.

Also now with Athletes coming back, they can still get medals and records (like Dwain Chambers).