Mike Mccallum

[bennie]

I've always believed that the Duran who moved up and turned up for Hagler (when McCallum was Duran's light-middleweight mandatory) would have got the better of McCallum. If he nearly beat Hagler, he beats McCallum. Hearns and Leonard also had the edge over Mike, in my opinion.
They would have outslicked him.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I've always believed that the Duran who moved up and turned up for Hagler (when McCallum was Duran's light-middleweight mandatory) would have got the better of McCallum. If he nearly beat Hagler, he can beat McCallum. Hearns and Leonard also had the edge over Mike, in my opinion.
They would have outslicked him.

I think Hagler was strangely fearful of Duran - which contributed rather to a muted performance from Marvin. He seemed to show Duran a ridiculous amount of respect, and allowed Duran to claim ring centre and actually push him back.

McCallum would have fought a different fight against Duran - it would have been very very close.

Hearns I think would probably have been broken down my Mike - only because Mike knew him too well - and Hearns was always brittle.

Leonard would have beaten McCallum at any weight below 168.

[Autobarn]

A bloated Duran - and Duran was a puffy fat bugger above welterweight - gets broken down by McCallum. Duran was very on and off post Leonard 1 & 2, whereas McCallum was always efficient, methodical and ready, apart from one or two off nights.

I don't realy have Leonard on a pedestal like many do. He was very tough, fast and flashy, but that doesn't mean he can just dance rings around a fighter of McCallum's calibre.

[hurlock]

A bloated Duran - and Duran was a puffy fat bugger above welterweight - gets broken down by McCallum. Duran was very on and off post Leonard 1 & 2, whereas McCallum was always efficient, methodical and ready, apart from one or two off nights.

I don't realy have Leonard on a pedestal like many do. He was very tough, fast and flashy, but that doesn't mean he can just dance rings around a fighter of McCallum's calibre.

you obviously aint seen the davey moore fight or barkley then.

[Autobarn]

I have. I've also seen some of the other fights from the '80s. Duran in this period was like James Toney. Lots of cute moves, up way over his weight, very crafty, but inconsistent, sometimes prone to running out of gas and at risk against much stronger men. Cameos of class, hard as nails, but IMO not enough to beat McCallum. Duran often looked soft, wasn't always in shape and against a body puncher like McCallum that is not good.

Many feel that Duran was lucky to beat Barkley, and Barkely - as dangerous as he was - was not a great fighter.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I have. I've also seen some of the other fights from the '80s. Duran in this period was like James Toney. Lots of cute moves, up way over his weight, very crafty, but inconsistent, sometimes prone to running out of gas and at risk against much stronger men. Cameos of class, hard as nails, but IMO not enough to beat McCallum. Duran often looked soft, wasn't always in shape and against a body puncher like McCallum that is not good.

Many feel that Duran was lucky to beat Barkley, and Barkely - as dangerous as he was - was not a great fighter.

I've watched him fight Barklay, I'd like to know how anyone thought Iran won that, thought Duran was a clear and comfortable winner. Duran was in great shape for that fight as he was for Hagler. He didn't look fat at all.

Leonard would have been far too fast for McCallum - get real - McCallum was made to look pedestrian by Kalambay!

McCallum was a great fighter, but he had a weakness for speed, something which Leonard had in spades.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I have. I've also seen some of the other fights from the '80s. Duran in this period was like James Toney. Lots of cute moves, up way over his weight, very crafty, but inconsistent, sometimes prone to running out of gas and at risk against much stronger men. Cameos of class, hard as nails, but IMO not enough to beat McCallum. Duran often looked soft, wasn't always in shape and against a body puncher like McCallum that is not good.

Many feel that Duran was lucky to beat Barkley, and Barkely - as dangerous as he was - was not a great fighter.

Duran NEVER let himself to the degree that Toney did.

I'm a big fan of McCallum, but I don't think you could discount Duran like you are. If he showed up in crap shape, then of course, McCallum was a class act and may well have won, but you cannot assume Duran wouldn't have come into the ring in good shape - after all he did for Hagler when he challenged for the title and for Barkley again for a title.

If it had been a title tilt against McCallum - I reckon he'd have gotten into shape.

[Autobarn]

I have. I've also seen some of the other fights from the '80s. Duran in this period was like James Toney. Lots of cute moves, up way over his weight, very crafty, but inconsistent, sometimes prone to running out of gas and at risk against much stronger men. Cameos of class, hard as nails, but IMO not enough to beat McCallum. Duran often looked soft, wasn't always in shape and against a body puncher like McCallum that is not good.

Many feel that Duran was lucky to beat Barkley, and Barkely - as dangerous as he was - was not a great fighter.

I've watched him fight Barklay, I'd like to know how anyone thought Iran won that, thought Duran was a clear and comfortable winner. Duran was in great shape for that fight as he was for Hagler. He didn't look fat at all.

Leonard would have been far too fast for McCallum - get real - McCallum was made to look pedestrian by Kalambay!

McCallum was a great fighter, but he had a weakness for speed, something which Leonard had in spades.

A lot of Yanks seem to have liked Barkely's constant aggression, body punching. I have no problem with the verdict as Duran was picking his shots well and got the knockdown. Every now and again someone does a reappraisal of the fight questioning how Duran got the nod, etc.

Anyway, Robbie Sims outworked Duran.

Leonard was fast. All greats have a wrong style out there for them. My view on McCallum-Kalambay 1 is that a) he underestimated the slick Kalambay and b) MM had been used to grinding ppl down in fights planned for the 15 rds route. That being a 12-rounder and a fight he just couldn't get off fast enough ,soon enough. He seemed like he had got used to plodding a bit, and afterward developed a style that suited more to the compact 12 rd distance. In the rematch, MM's different approach saw him dominate the entire first half, gettig the shots off right away, before suffering a few scary moments over the 2nd half en route to deserved, and certainly not pedestrian, victory.



SRL was fast, but that doesn't mean he definitely beats McCallum. Body shots slow fast guys down for instance. I'm not saying MM would win, but I'm not saying he wouldn't. I certainly wouldn't say he had "no chance."

[Autobarn]

I have. I've also seen some of the other fights from the '80s. Duran in this period was like James Toney. Lots of cute moves, up way over his weight, very crafty, but inconsistent, sometimes prone to running out of gas and at risk against much stronger men. Cameos of class, hard as nails, but IMO not enough to beat McCallum. Duran often looked soft, wasn't always in shape and against a body puncher like McCallum that is not good.

Many feel that Duran was lucky to beat Barkley, and Barkely - as dangerous as he was - was not a great fighter.

Duran NEVER let himself to the degree that Toney did.

I'm a big fan of McCallum, but I don't think you could discount Duran like you are. If he showed up in crap shape, then of course, McCallum was a class act and may well have won, but you cannot assume Duran wouldn't have come into the ring in good shape - after all he did for Hagler when he challenged for the title and for Barkley again for a title.

If it had been a title tilt against McCallum - I reckon he'd have gotten into shape.

yes but you can def see similarities with Toney and Duran. Fighting well over their proper weight, picking very classy shots but not throwing too many shots. Duran did get very puffy, and a number of fights he just wasn't "there" - i.e. Laing, Sims.

I just think a guy with conditioning and consistency issues - that Duran had following his great ligthweight days - would really feel it against a grinder like the "Body Snatcher."

[hurlock]

I have. I've also seen some of the other fights from the '80s. Duran in this period was like James Toney. Lots of cute moves, up way over his weight, very crafty, but inconsistent, sometimes prone to running out of gas and at risk against much stronger men. Cameos of class, hard as nails, but IMO not enough to beat McCallum. Duran often looked soft, wasn't always in shape and against a body puncher like McCallum that is not good.

Many feel that Duran was lucky to beat Barkley, and Barkely - as dangerous as he was - was not a great fighter.

if your going on body's mike weaver must be your favourite fighter right??

ive never seen duran tire??it was one of his strong points his tenacity was extatic!!hagler looked tired in the later stages & he was an athlete, duran a caveman.
tell hearns barkley wasnt anygood,duran was out of his weight class but it didnt matter he was built too fight simple.
these are my alltime favourite fighters mcallum,toney,duran,leonard.

[bennie]

I have. I've also seen some of the other fights from the '80s. Duran in this period was like James Toney. Lots of cute moves, up way over his weight, very crafty, but inconsistent, sometimes prone to running out of gas and at risk against much stronger men. Cameos of class, hard as nails, but IMO not enough to beat McCallum. Duran often looked soft, wasn't always in shape and against a body puncher like McCallum that is not good.

Many feel that Duran was lucky to beat Barkley, and Barkely - as dangerous as he was - was not a great fighter.

Duran was bloated between big fights, but never for the big fights. Duran was a big-fight fighter who never ran out of gas. In fact, he had a history of finishing strongly in his fights. If you think McCallum is better than Duran, then we should all consider a mental health assessment.

[Counter-puncher]

bennie i take your points but ask you to consider the following:

Benitez, not dissimilar to MM stylistically (reflex-based defence, jab/counter/bodypunching), led Duran a merry dance on my view of the fight (some people think it was rather closer than I did), and MM was every bit in Wilfred's league in terms of awkwardness and class. also, notably, this was a fight in which Duran did NOT get stronger late in the fight, the combined effects of missing too many shots, taking too many, and having the bigger stronger man push him around a bit. and Duran getting noticeably outworked to the body by Wilfred. i don't think it's inconceivable MM could do the same kind of job on him, not at all.

IMO MM beats Duran at 154. he can afford to exchange punch for punch with Duran if he has to but I'm not sure he would, the Duran that lost to Benitez loses to MM also, IMO.

[Autobarn]

I have. I've also seen some of the other fights from the '80s. Duran in this period was like James Toney. Lots of cute moves, up way over his weight, very crafty, but inconsistent, sometimes prone to running out of gas and at risk against much stronger men. Cameos of class, hard as nails, but IMO not enough to beat McCallum. Duran often looked soft, wasn't always in shape and against a body puncher like McCallum that is not good.

Many feel that Duran was lucky to beat Barkley, and Barkely - as dangerous as he was - was not a great fighter.

Duran was bloated between big fights, but never for the big fights. Duran was a big-fight fighter who never ran out of gas. In fact, he had a history of finishing strongly in his fights. If you think McCallum is better than Duran, then we should all consider a mental health assessment.

mental health assessment?

you're the one that chats to himself on here, bennie.

sign of madness, didn't you know?

if we're going to have a debate, take Duran of his pedestal. At lightweight he was awesome. At light welter also - this could have been his greatest fighting weight perhaps. At welter, he was a bit undersized and SRL 1 fight had much scuffling and mauling and holding. At light middle to middle, he was an occasionally brilliant fighter. He did not maintain absolute fighting fitness from one fight to another. So he came in shape for the big ones but that is nothing like being in shape all the time. Being bloated and coming down hurts a fighter. Fighting above his natural weight he could be befuddled (Benitez, Laing), blasted out (Hearns), simply outworked (half brothers Hagler and Sims). If Duran blows up and fails to maintain peak fitness from fight to fight, then he is going to get broken down by a great body puncher.

I think you're banking on the Duran of the Davey Moore or Hagler fight turning up. At 154 there is little doubt that McCallum is a better fighter. McCallum was always in shape, just about. A fight vs someone like Duran would have been a huge deal for McCallum and he may have been able to take it to an altogether extra level.

On the other hand, like Hagler, the occasion might get to him. Hagler was an awesome middleweight champ but when he landed the big ones, he fouhgt his opponents' fight (Duran AND SRL). I don't think McCallum would have done that, but you neber know, he may have done a Hagler

[Counter-puncher]

That is the mark of a great fighter, and the judges made a complete arse of scoring the bout. Hagler fought a tough guy in a tough fight, but was generally ahead throughout the contest.

duran seemed to get a fair bit of sympathetic judging at that time, one judge gave him the fight against Laing, robbery, and the dude who scored the benitez fight to Wilfred by a mere point was being kind to Roberto too, IMO.

[Autobarn]

Hagler is one of my fave fighters ever, but strategically he seemed to get it horribly wrong vs Leonard, and he didn't look so adaptable in the Hagler fight. There was a hesitance about him in the Duran fight - throughout the fight - that might have seemed a bit strange given that he's one of the most fearsome champs of the last 30 or so years.

I do feel that Hagler was well ahead but he did look sloppy.

[Counter-puncher]

I would add that Hagler's adaptability seemed to be directly linked to his speed relative to his opponent, when he was vastly out-sped by Leonard or facing a Duran with better handspeed, Hagler's strategic options were limited.

[Autobarn]

Of course Hagler was on the slide by the Leonard fight. But he fought Leonard's fight so "well" over the first half, boxing on the outside, throwing wide shots etc, it suited Leonard so much you could almost believe Leonard had it in the contract that Hagler had to box the wrong fight.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Boy, some posts should be moved to the 'Boxing myths' strand. No offence but Hagler did not get fearful or intimidated by Duran. It was widely known that they trained for the aggressive Duran, only for Duran to train to counter Hagler'ssouthpaw aggression with winging right hands, leaving both men coming into the fight looking to fight off the backfoot in the early going.

Hagler then adjusted his approach, realised that he could take Duran's counter right (which Duran used wonderfully on the night) all day long, and forced his way into the fight.

That is the mark of a great fighter, and the judges made a complete arse of scoring the bout. Hagler fought a tough guy in a tough fight, but was generally ahead throughout the contest.

You may be right, but I always felt watching that fight, that Hagler could have put his foot on the gas more and tried to rough Duran up a bit more. Hagler wasn't afraid, but he was certainly very respectful of Duran.

[Autobarn]

Anyway, I was just trying to upset a few ppl in what has turned out to be a bit of a "popular legends" vs "underrated great" thread.

I think in Hagler's case, that Hagler perhaps struggled with smaller, cagier opponents. Marvin certainly had plenty of rounds to work out Duran, in the 15 round era.

Hagler was somewhat disappointing vs Duran and Leonard.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Duran was fresh off brutalising Davey Moore before his Hagler bout, I'm sure that concerned the marvelous 1 who wouldn't want to make the same mistakes with his openness and slugging early with hands of stone that Davey made

Is it true after this fight Duran said 'not so marvelous now are you'???

[hitman_hatton1]

hagler vs duran is still the only one of those fights involving the big 4 that i've never seen all the way thru.

i have virtually all hagler's title reign as well.

and a lot of duran fights.

think i'll get on youtube later and have a look.

[hurlock]

people forget hagler was made of granite but knew when someone could dig,duran was a big big puncher after lightweight he never looked in prime nick he partied hard!!look at some of the athletes duran competed with how did he last the course??he had the equaliser his punches took it out of fighters simple.
hearns chinned him b'coz he was dead at the weight as he made the deal in a bar got cash up front & partied his whole camp.
the story is on youtube under duran.
bob arum said he went durans house he went out to the pool where there was 60 people eating steaks drinking, dom perignion,& how duran would share & squander!!

[bennie]

I have. I've also seen some of the other fights from the '80s. Duran in this period was like James Toney. Lots of cute moves, up way over his weight, very crafty, but inconsistent, sometimes prone to running out of gas and at risk against much stronger men. Cameos of class, hard as nails, but IMO not enough to beat McCallum. Duran often looked soft, wasn't always in shape and against a body puncher like McCallum that is not good.

Many feel that Duran was lucky to beat Barkley, and Barkely - as dangerous as he was - was not a great fighter.

Duran was bloated between big fights, but never for the big fights. Duran was a big-fight fighter who never ran out of gas. In fact, he had a history of finishing strongly in his fights. If you think McCallum is better than Duran, then we should all consider a mental health assessment.

mental health assessment?

you're the one that chats to himself on here, bennie.

sign of madness, didn't you know?

if we're going to have a debate, take Duran of his pedestal. At lightweight he was awesome. At light welter also - this could have been his greatest fighting weight perhaps. At welter, he was a bit undersized and SRL 1 fight had much scuffling and mauling and holding. At light middle to middle, he was an occasionally brilliant fighter. He did not maintain absolute fighting fitness from one fight to another. So he came in shape for the big ones but that is nothing like being in shape all the time. Being bloated and coming down hurts a fighter. Fighting above his natural weight he could be befuddled (Benitez, Laing), blasted out (Hearns), simply outworked (half brothers Hagler and Sims). If Duran blows up and fails to maintain peak fitness from fight to fight, then he is going to get broken down by a great body puncher.

I think you're banking on the Duran of the Davey Moore or Hagler fight turning up. At 154 there is little doubt that McCallum is a better fighter. McCallum was always in shape, just about. A fight vs someone like Duran would have been a huge deal for McCallum and he may have been able to take it to an altogether extra level.

On the other hand, like Hagler, the occasion might get to him. Hagler was an awesome middleweight champ but when he landed the big ones, he fouhgt his opponents' fight (Duran AND SRL). I don't think McCallum would have done that, but you neber know, he may have done a Hagler

Duran had a weakness to 'runners'. McCallum was not a 'runnr'. OK, he was not exactly made for Duran but he would have been there for Duran to hit, break up and, at worst, outsmart. You say McCallum is a good body puncher but what about Duran's body punches? He murdered Hagler to the body (and a million others). McCallum was excellent but it is hard to think that Duran - a Duran in shape - was not better, regardless of weight.
Incidentally, autobarn is actually spelt autobahn.

[Autobarn]

i'm an anglicised autobahn, an autobahn who posts in the british scene. i've studied german, been out with deutsche birds and i've got the kraftwerk CD, so i'm up on all that.

i just think, at somewhere like 154 or 160, you've got one guy who specialises in brutal body attacks, and another whose body is potentially soft, a guy who abuses his body with eating disorders and then dragging the weight off...I see McCallum grinding Duran down. Duran still cagey, cute, picks the shots well, has his moments. But "Body Snatcher" grinds his stumpy arse down at light middle, middle, super middle. In mythical matchups can you be sure that even the best possible Duran turns up - I'm not sure.

Duran was an amazing lightweight but afterwards it was a bit topsy turvy and - while his later achievements epitomise the term "pound for pound" - he was a bit overrated for what he did in the mid-late '80s. A consistent, disciplined, strong attack is not good for him.

The worst fight in the Fab 4 for McCallum, IMO, is Hagler. A bigger and more ferocious grind 'em down technician than McCallum was. I feel Hagler - sturdy, methodical, strong - would be a long night for McCallum in a prime for prime contest.

[Counter-puncher]

Duran had a weakness to 'runners'. McCallum was not a 'runnr'. OK, he was not exactly made for Duran but he would have been there for Duran to hit, break up and, at worst, outsmart. You say McCallum is a good body puncher but what about Duran's body punches? He murdered Hagler to the body (and a million others). McCallum was excellent but it is hard to think that Duran - a Duran in shape - was not better, regardless of weight.
Incidentally, autobarn is actually spelt autobahn.

bennie just because Duran had a weakness to runners doesn't mean that is the only kind of fighter who could beat him, surely? anyway if that logic does hold it works both ways- MM only really struggled with fast cute boxres and Duran wasn't that, eh?

RE my earlier post on Benitez, he beat Duran convincingly, and didn't run all night. I would bet on MM doing a similar job. bear in mind MM could just push Duran away on the inside if he wanted, as he did with the much bigger and stronger Mike Watson and even to an extent the LH Harding.