How would Frazier do in this era?

[raylawpc]

Ray,
Was Jeffries an elite boxing athlete?

There are lots of questions about a guy like Jeffries who fought smaller men and was usually much bigger than his opponent. How well does Jeffries take punches from bigger opponents, is he intimidated by bigger opponents, is he coachable. etc.?

If he takes punches, if he isn't intimidated, if he is coachable, he should do okay.

People of his day thought he was an "elite boxing athlete," as did most boxing writers up to the 1970s, so I would say "yes." He fought smaller men because, at the term of the century, he was bigger than most of the other fighters out there, and bigger than all the premier fighters. That's why they called him "the Big Fellow." Some of the guys he fought were considered "big" for their day: Joe Goddard, Peter Jackson, Gus Ruhlin, Jack Munroe, and a couple of very early opponents like Dan Long and VanBuskirk. Ruhlin was taller than Jeff. But Jeff was the biggest guy around.

According to two of his trainers - Tommy Ryan and DeWitt Van Court - Jeff was very teachable. His ability to absorb punishment was legendary.

[dempseyfire]

Chagaev is not naturally any bigger than a Frazier . . just look at his physique for crying out loud, the guy is softer than Jello pudding. Frazier when he plumped up to 224 looked about just as 'solid' as Chagaev and Povetkin do at 225, and those guys aren't serious diabetics. The 6 ft-6'3 guys weighing at 225 and above weigh that much because they don't have the between fight discipline and training regimens to put them in top fighting shape, plain and simple. If simply weighing more was such an advantage, I repeat ONCE AGAIN . .

Why don't the Klitschkos put on an extra 20 lbs and be even bigger 260-270 lb monsters? At 240 on 6'6-6'7 frames they are very lean . . .but apparently according to fitness experts like Galt getting lean and keeping down your weight in boxing is just foolish myths of old fogeys.

if skills/conditioning have IMPROVED, please show me examples, because there aren't any. Anyone with a full brain (so johnny may not qualify) can see that heavyweights today are overall less skilled and definitely in FAR worse condition, I mean jeez louise top guys are gassed by the 6th round, it's pathetic.

And its not just the heavyweights . . compare 160 to the division just in the early 1990s. Hopkins completly embarassing Pavlik showed the expanding gulf between the new breed and the last of the old school in the upper weught classes. Look at 175, the golden boy Dawson had to get a gift vs a 41 year old Johnson, Pavlik got taken to school by a 44 year old Hopkins. Even a probably already (and I say this sadly) brain-damaged Holyfield clearly beat the giant Valuev. Anyone who can't see the decline in boxing at 160 and above is delusional.

[John Galt]

DF thanks for that post, you are always good for a laugh.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

compare 160 to the division just in the early 1990s. Hopkins completly embarassing Pavlik showed the expanding gulf between the new breed and the last of the old school in the upper weught classes.

- Taylor ran Popkins out of the 160 division, then Pavlik ran Taylor out of the 160 division and then Super Joe ran Popkins out of the 175 division, so it looks like any comparison you got is today's embarrassing load in your shorts as opposed to yesterday's.

At at any rate, as anyone who knows a shred of boxing and knows the first thing about the Klitschkos, the brothers have tracked the typical heavy incremental weight increases from their debuts.

That they seem to have stabilized and never show up so grossly out of shape as certain favored past greats is proof enough of their ring veracity.

Need to go back to the drawing board and give Ellis some of Mr. E. H. Field's special vitamins so he can become the oldest uncrowned champ to also lose to Niko after beating him to a pulp with the ol' softshoe like Mr. Field did. Then we can give Michael Fox some special superduper vitamins and he can have his shot at softshoeing poor ol' Niko to a pulp as you wave the old glory around in deluded glee.

[hhaehre]

- My friend, do you ever consider your thoughts, or is your above just a loose stream of conciousness?

If you think that the Haye/Mormeck fight featured smaller fighters with less total poundage in the ring than Ali/Frazier's first fight, oh my stars, where in the name of nirvana have you been able to hibernate absent rule changes?

My friend, maybe you should stop putting words in my mouth. Where did I mention Haye or Mormec ?
As a favour to you since you obviously have a hard time comparing numbers, let me break it down for you: Both Ali and Frazier weighed in well over 200lbs for their first fight, Mormec and Haye both weighed in under 200lbs for their fight. The conclusion is therefore that Ali-Frazier I featured the bigger fighters. What's your point anyway ? That Ali could have been a cw in 1971 ?

Jim Jeffries had about as dense a muscle and bone structure as could be imagined, and it sure never hampered him. Nor did it hamper Tyson. Nor did it hamper Primo in between Jeffries and Tyson. Mr. E. H. Field went to extraordinary artificial means to enhance his muscle and bone density, to compete with mixed results against his era dreadnaughts, so was he hampered?

Who ever brought up Jeffries ?
You think pumped up is good ? If so why don't you just come out and say it ? You must love what Briggs have done to his body, what a great example of the modern heavy weight.

Any good or bad judgments need to be properly placed with new rules, regulations that today's fighters fight under, not the fighters who can only compete under rules of their day. If you prefer rules of Jeffries' day, then state it as such, but don't expect much sympathy if you claim nobody that comes after him can beat him because he's so vastly superior.

Again with Jeffries, we are talking about Frazier in 1970 not Jeffries 100+ years ago. No one stated a preference for the rules of Jeffries' day so why don't you stop arguing with yourself. If you want to discuss the rules Jeffries fought under, feel free to open a new thread.

Jim Corbett was using dumbbells and claimed they did him a world of good, yet we still have the crowd that you are a part of refusing to see history in proper context and bounding fighters with their own muscle if they don't meet some fancified ideal in your mythical imaginations of history.

Yes, never mind that Corbett looked more like scrawny little Jimmy Ellis than pumped up Shannon Briggs or hog fat Sam Peter

Ali wasn't hitting a natural 200 lbs until around the 3rd yr of his career at any rate no matter how you spin him.

Yes, at the ripe old age of 21. Before that he was a cruiser and when he was 15 I believe he was a welter weight. Btw at 21 Briggs was 210, Tua was 215 and Sam Peter around 230. They all ballooned to 250+ and boy did they fulfil their potential in the ring.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

As a favour to you since you obviously have a hard time comparing numbers, let me break it down for you: Both Ali and Frazier weighed in well over 200lbs for their first fight, Mormec and Haye both weighed in under 200lbs for their fight. The conclusion is therefore that Ali-Frazier I featured the bigger fighters. What's your point anyway ? That Ali could have been a cw in 1971 ?

- My friend, Haye and Mormeck cut weight to make the 200 lb weigh in limit. Both around 215 for fight night, more than Frazier/Ali combined.

Yes, not only Ali could've been cruiser in 71 and through his first 30 fights, but that he would've been a cruiser through his first 25 at least.

If you followed boxing, you would know this.

[hhaehre]

- My friend, Haye and Mormeck cut weight to make the 200 lb weigh in limit. Both around 215 for fight night, more than Frazier/Ali combined.

Sure, you would know. Haye was the same weight aganst Mormec on fight night as he was in his fight with Barrett. He was so drained for Mormec that he put on 15lbs after the weigh in, yet he only came in at 217 and 215 in his two fights at hw ?

Yes, not only Ali could've been cruiser in 71 and through his first 30 fights, but that he would've been a cruiser through his first 25 at least.

If you followed boxing, you would know this.

This is utter bs. Liston was 213 whe he won the title and I'm sure he could have starved himself under 200. Was sub 200 his natural weight then ?
In your bizarro-world Ali was fat at 215 while Peter is ripped at 260. And you question whether I follow boxing ??

[Collins2000]

- My friend, Haye and Mormeck cut weight to make the 200 lb weigh in limit. Both around 215 for fight night, more than Frazier/Ali combined.

Sure, you would know. Haye was the same weight aganst Mormec on fight night as he was in his fight with Barrett. He was so drained for Mormec that he put on 15lbs after the weigh in, yet he only came in at 217 and 215 in his two fights at hw ?

Yes, not only Ali could've been cruiser in 71 and through his first 30 fights, but that he would've been a cruiser through his first 25 at least.

If you followed boxing, you would know this.

This is utter bs. Liston was 213 whe he won the title and I'm sure he could have starved himself under 200. Was sub 200 his natural weight then ?
In your bizarro-world Ali was fat at 215 while Peter is ripped at 260. And you question whether I follow boxing ??

Will BRR ever address the questions or will he continue to waffle bullshit?



Stay tuned...

[Robinson]

IM no pro athlete but I took a fight on short notice and I
went from 210lbs to 196lbs in 4 days and I lost another 7lbs in the
sauna before the weigh in.

I know guys that are shredded at 215lbs and who cut to
185lbs. I walk around at 220lbs and I cut to 200-205lbs.
I have also fought at 220lbs, so its no hard feat.

Now when you have elite athletes...these guys have it down
to a science. They make it seem easy. It amazes me what
professional athletes are able to do, and how well they rehydrate.

I have found Yank MMAers and wrestlers are incredible at
cutting weight. They know the methods and techniques and
do it with such ease. I should imagine it is the same for modern
pro boxers.

I dont see why it is so hard for guys to comprehend it here. It is
for the most part water weight. You can drop 10% of your mass
with some ease in a short amount of time. Other guys do it easier.

Most yank fighters use thermogenics with ephedrine which helps
them stay ripped and lose body fat, This can get them shredded
in weeks. While tearing away fat. Boxers, wrestlers, MMAers etc
al use this.

Human Growth Hormones is another legal element that has been
in elite sports, entertainment industry and so on for some time.
How do you think guys like Holyfield, Hopkins and so on are able
to train hard and recover so quick at such an age ?

And anyone that thinks PEs are a new thing are naive. Steroids for
example were only a no no in pro boxing during the 1980s.
Does everyone here think that they were never touched prior ?

Now understand that their are lots and lots of different 'steroids'
not all make a man big like arnold. most athletes take them for
recovery. So they can train hard the next day and the day after.
Imagine being able to train hard every day without feeling sore or
tired ?

Steroids are used in amateur wrestling and boxing (most other
ama sports also) where they have more tests and regulating bodies.
Yet in the professional ranks people think it does not happen ??

Using these things does not mean that a man is impervious to
pain, or does not need to work hard. It allows an elite athlete the
ability to go harder, faster and longer. It allows them more time
to train. Imagine that...being able to train 6 days a week intensely
for 4-6 hrs.

How else do you think alot of these guys are able to run, do weights
spar and do focused training all in one day.

This all helps the body grow, stay strong and cut weight.

One thing it does not do...give a man a better chin, give a man a heart
nor does it give them great technique. Those are all things defined
by the character.

[John Galt]

Thank you Kym, That post should enlighten the guys who don't understand cutting weight or how PEDs enhance performance without making everyone look like a body builder. One of the best posts ever!

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

This is utter bs. Liston was 213 whe he won the title and I'm sure he could have starved himself under 200. Was sub 200 his natural weight then ?
In your bizarro-world Ali was fat at 215 while Peter is ripped at 260. And you question whether I follow boxing ??

- It's mostly bs because it's all what you uttered in your world, but sure, probably Sonny could've cut weight fairly easily to make 200 and been right back at 213 by fightnight, so you got that part right.

Who on earth other than you in your bizarro world would ever even mention Ali fat at 215 when that was within his natural championship range in his first go round? He did get down to 202 for the Cooper rematch, an indication that 1 minute trip to the men's room would've seen him make the 200lb limit in his 4th title defense.

Darned shame your manhood is so threatened by modern developments that you deny the obvious. You were probably one of those guys who were always saying Ali beats everyone in history because he was so big and fast. Now he's just fast and your big schtick has lost it's mojo.

Nor did I say Peter was ripped at 260. I said he wasn't fat as is claimed. The fatboy in the bout was Chambers who looks like he ate all the meals Sam turned down to cut from 300 to 265.

Not all fighters get ripped anyways, so that's not a good indicator of weight. JC Chavez looked like he never had a muscle in his body, whereas Manny looks like he could shred a brontosaurus he's so ripped. Iron Boy Calderon ain't fat at 100-105 lbs, but he has that roly poly air about him.

Frazier, back to topic, same deal at 205 looking pudgy even though he was probably well under 10% BMI. Natural cruiser. Read it and weep I guess.

[Robinson]

Frazier never looked shredded or 'hard' some guys just
dont. Its genetics.
Frazier at his best was in my opinion
when he was in the low to mid 200s. IN the late 60s when
he was active, constant and sudden.
A threat to any HW no doubt. But not without his weaknesses.
And under modern conditions he would be an exceptional
CW>

[generic screen name]

Cut this Cruiserweight bullshit, Holyfield competed with the big guys being 208-220 and he could punch with the best of them.

So many heavyweights today suck in the inside today its not even funny, and not even regular suck, REALLY suck. Frazier is an monstrosity in the inside. I love Joe's odds against Wlad, because he doesn't know how to exchange in the inside. He's going to connect with his accurate left hook.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Klitschko could hurt him early. His is a pretty formidable jab, nowadays (credit to Steward), & with the heavy right hand coming down the pipe on top of that extra reach, Frazier could be damaged early on. However, Klitschko has repeatedly exhibited an inability to take chances, & if he hurt Frazier early, he'd find a way to fuk it all up, IMO. After that, he'd still be competitive, but more as a result of frustrating Frazier, & then, only for a time.

Frazier TKO8 Klitschko. Big brother lasts ten, before he peters out. The rest of today's Heavyweights wouldn't have the balls to sign the contract.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Cut this Cruiserweight bullshit, Holyfield competed with the big guys being 208-220 and he could punch with the best of them.

So many heavyweights today suck in the inside today its not even funny, and not even regular suck, REALLY suck. Frazier is an monstrosity in the inside. I love Joe's odds against Wlad, because he doesn't know how to exchange in the inside. He's going to connect with his accurate left hook.

- Talk about damning Mr. E. H. Field with faint praise!

Cutting out the cruisers, he is 24-10 as a heavy with 13 KOs, a 38% KO ratio, mighty impressive for The Order of the Weak Sisters of the Lillies perhaps.

I think you best include his cruiser period, because sans that division, Mr. Field resembles a yoyo as much as a heavyweight champ with a Mike Weaver veneer.

It's going to take someone bigger and stronger than Joe was to get inside Wlad. Brewster tried and failed even if he won the first fight. Jean Marc Mormeck a strong inside block of a fighter never fancied his chances at heavy. Not that many in history choose the bob and weave because it's a risky style that takes very disciplined specialized training and talents to implement to a successful career. Those guys don't grow on trees.

[generic screen name]

I hate when people in message boards make fun of athlete's names. Have some respect, these guys risk their lives for our entertainment. If you don't like the fighter, that's fine, don't make it so apparent when you make your point.

C'mon the guy went 12 rounds with Lennox Lewis, Twice, a Prime Riddick Bowe, twice, for a guy who was constantly outweighed by a good 20-40 pounds, it sure wasn't the number one factor when it came fight time. Bowe and Lewis are faster than both Klitschkos.

Fighting in the inside isn't always about bobbing and weaving, its about making your opponent uncomfortable, smothering his punches, putting yourself in perfect position. Frazier was one of the best heavyweights at that. To beat Frazier was to go forward, there's not many heavyweight's nowadays that go route.

Hey I actually like both of the Klitschko's, I defend them a bit in the Current Scene when they recieve alot of hate on landslide wins. People just hate them for some reason. But I think Frazier has what it takes to beat them. Especially Wlad. Not 100% sure on Vitali, he's way more discipline than people give him credit for, despite just using 1-2's to death.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I hate when people in message boards make fun of athlete's names. Have some respect, these guys risk their lives for our entertainment. If you don't like the fighter, that's fine, don't make it so apparent when you make your point.

- My friend, I hate it more when people in message boards allayed with criminal promoters like DKing fluff up cheaters way beyond their best. Another Ali tragedy means nothing to these people as long as entertainment and money continues to flow.

I'm in agreement that Frazier at his best could be quite formidable today, but it's hard to say how formidable because I don't see his career unfolding with as much success against a division that is 30-40 lbs larger than his day.

Frazier would definitely be frozen out of Chagaev, Valuev, Mr. Field, and Ruiz challenges since Joe would never agree to wear the custom DK signature cuffs. Those are the most beatable fighters, yet are tough to beat and impossible to beat when annointed in advance as winner.

Ali wasn't a very good inside fighter either, and he did ok. All he did was lay and block on ropes or tie up when not catching significant damage. The brothers would just tie Joe up quickly and reset on the break.

Be interesting to see how prime Ali handles the brothers from the outside where they've never been beat. Conversely, I suspect an upset if the Ali of Mildenberger had to toe it up against Byrd, Sanders, Iggy or JCGomez. Different era with a different set of problems.

[hhaehre]

Be interesting to see how prime Ali handles the brothers from the outside where they've never been beat.

Did you not just state that Brewster could not get inside on Wlad ? If Brewster could not beat Wlad on the inside nor from the outside I guess he lost then ?

[dempseyfire]

Be interesting to see how prime Ali handles the brothers from the outside where they've never been beat.

Did you not just state that Brewster could not get inside on Wlad ? If Brewster could not beat Wlad on the inside nor from the outside I guess he lost then ?

Don't bother . . .he'll bring up the Don King conspiracy theory excuse like he does for any fight whose result doesn't fit his warped logic of the way things should be. Don't feed the troll!

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Did you not just state that Brewster could not get inside on Wlad ? If Brewster could not beat Wlad on the inside nor from the outside I guess he lost then ?

- He couldn't get outside on Wlad either, did you not watch the fight?

Wlad collapsed on his own, weak as a new born lamb the last round. Brewster landed maybe 5 total punches in the fight, none of which hurt Wlad. Wlad needed assistance after knocking down Brewster at the bell for the 2nd KD at the end of the 4th round. He could barely stand coming out for the 5th which is where Brewster landed most of his 5 punches in the fight.

[dempseyfire]

Now he's just resorting to flat-out lying.

[observer1]

Did you not just state that Brewster could not get inside on Wlad ? If Brewster could not beat Wlad on the inside nor from the outside I guess he lost then ?

- He couldn't get outside on Wlad either, did you not watch the fight?

Wlad collapsed on his own, weak as a new born lamb the last round. Brewster landed maybe 5 total punches in the fight, none of which hurt Wlad. Wlad needed assistance after knocking down Brewster at the bell for the 2nd KD at the end of the 4th round. He could barely stand coming out for the 5th which is where Brewster landed most of his 5 punches in the fight.

You're either just having a laugh, or you're a very, very sad and weird little person

[Collins2000]

Did you not just state that Brewster could not get inside on Wlad ? If Brewster could not beat Wlad on the inside nor from the outside I guess he lost then ?

- He couldn't get outside on Wlad either, did you not watch the fight?

Wlad collapsed on his own, weak as a new born lamb the last round. Brewster landed maybe 5 total punches in the fight, none of which hurt Wlad. Wlad needed assistance after knocking down Brewster at the bell for the 2nd KD at the end of the 4th round. He could barely stand coming out for the 5th which is where Brewster landed most of his 5 punches in the fight.

You're either just having a laugh, or you're a very, very sad and weird little person

I suspect the latter.

[jezzamundo]

Sigh...

This thread is starting to make for some very tired reading, although entertaining at times.

I think there are some interesting matchups between fighters of the present era and the 70s. Wladimir Klitschko has the tools to beat Frazier, he has the power to stop Frazier in his tracks as Foreman did, and a hard jab to keep him at distance. However, Frazier is unlike anyone who Wlad has fought before, he is fast, hard to hit, throws LOTS of punches and has a left hook that could knock Wlad down over and over. What would happen in this matchup? Either fighter has a good chance to win, but based on their records, fight footage and quality of opposition, I have to give Frazier a slight edge. The 7 inch height and 35lb weight advantages are significant, and if Wlad fought a smart, brave fight, he could, perhaps should beat Frazier, but based on his fights we all know that Wlad is a cautious fighter with a chin that is average at best, who is scared of being hit and hurt.

Vitali stands a better chance with his stronger chin and bigger heart, I actually slightly favour him over Frazier, although Frazier's greater punch output and hard-to-hit movement would make give him a chance of a points or win via cuts.

I think the problem with many of the pro modern era posters on this forum is simply this: they have not seen enough old fight footage. Heavyweights in the 70s in general were much fitter than the top heavyweights of today, they were lighter because they were less muscle bound and slimmer (Klitschkos excepted), they were faster, more agile and threw many, many more puches. Dempsey is absolutely right about the reduced pool of fighters today, as boxing is a considerably less popular sport than it used to be. Also consider the fact that the quality of the men going into boxing is reducing. Most of the strongest, most powerful, most co-ordinated men are going into basketball and football, where in past eras they would have been boxers. This weakened field of fighters leaves the heavyweight division open for giants with moderate skills (Valuev etc) to be competitive, and a highly flawed fighter, in Wlad to be dominant.

Please, please, watch some old fight footage from the 60s, 70s, even 80s and then compare it to the heavyweight title fights of today.

Oh, and Sam Peter would weigh 230lb if he were in the best shape possible for boxing. At that weight he would have MORE power due to greater speed and flexibility, throw and land more punches, and be harder to hit due to increased footspeed.

[Robinson]

Interestingly enough I have a massive collection of boxing bouts from
many eras. Its the more recent bouts I tend to lack as I spend more
time watching older fights and observing the past greats.

That being said, I think alot of people in general draw their conclusions
from just watching one of two fights of the greats...and by reading
biographies and so on.

For example to judge say a Frazier on the ali fights and Foreman is
not really giving Frazier any credit, when the steam roller that he was
in the late 60s is forgotten.
But men like Bonavena gave him trouble at this time, which can lead
one to a safe conclusion that some of todays big and heavy hitters
would also do their damage.
It is true that no one of todays era has ever faced the likes of Frazier,
it is safe to say no one in any era really has, thats what makes him
so unique and great. But Frazier and his contemporaries have never faced
an opponent of the likes found in todays and some more recent
generations of heavies.

I do agree that this argument can grow tired, but its what we are here
to do. Friends from all over arguing for fun and thats all this is...some
fun, with one another who would beat who and how.

It only grows sad and tedious when people proclaim an absolute opinion with
out any real argument or back up. And when people get their lil panties
all tied up and get angry...they are just opinons we all have and its
just some fun.

I still feel that Joe would start off as a CW and then would take some
big money HW fights, where he would do well at times and then struggle.
He would entertain and has a chance at winning and holding an ABC belt.
But again, when you have the science of cutting weight down pat and
the CW division, it is unlikely we will see a HW of any note that fights
at around 200lbs and is around 6'.

It takes a unique, talented, well schooled athlete to get to that level.
Lets hope we see such a man again.