Did you consider Mike Dokes champion at any point?

[BoxBuzz]

I just realized that Dokes actually Held the WBA title at a time when I simply didn't consider that Belt as the least bit reflective of reality. So when a question was recently raised regarding who I thought should have made it to championship status but didn't, I raised his name. Because to me he never really made it.

Anyone else agree with this? Or did you consider him "champion" when he held that belt? If so, why?

The word "ordinary" is a laugh riot when you look at how BoxRec now relegates the WBA title. However I don't always think they have been wrong. Anyway that was in the early days of "fractured championship status". It is such a dissapointment that things have only gotten worse since that point.

[Flump]

I never considered him the real champion myself, just what the record books say, former WBA heavyweight champion. He never kept the title long enough to be seen as the number 1 and the guy he beat (Weaver) had already been knocked out by Holmes. Though there are those that will say the WBA title was the real title following Ali's retirement.

But for all that he was a talented fighter, one of many in the 80's who allowed out of ring activities to interfere with his career.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I just realized that Dokes actually Held the WBA title at a time when I simply didn't consider that Belt as the least bit reflective of reality. So when a question was recently raised regarding who I thought should have made it to championship status but didn't, I raised his name.

- What's your reality? My reality is Dokes was one of the half dozen WBA champs of the era, young prime champions who were promoted on network TV exactly the same way the WBC champ was promoted.

Or did your reality omit that both Norton and Dokes beat Cobb just before Mr. Larry elevated him to contender?

[Trainer Monkey]

Dokes was a not good,great fighter,who blew his career up his nose

[BoxBuzz]

I just didn't consider the Dokes lineage as valid. Were you thinking that this parade of bums were "the best followed by the best, followed by the best?. I'm not knockin ya' if it is. It's as good a reality as any I suppose.

I will also add that I thought Dokes was heading for greatness that never manifested....I felt the same about Greg Page. I was sort of hoping they would both hone their talents to their personal bests and we would all get to see the collision. And that reality of course never happened.

[dempseyfire]

Dokes had a style that looked great and flashy vs the John L. Gardners of the world but he really failed to impress when he stepped up in class. I consider him one of the weaker major paper champs of the 80s, although I seem to be one of the few who had him beating Weaver in their draw rematch (Hercules just didn't throw enough punches IMO)

[Nile4000]

I just didn't consider the Dokes lineage as valid. Were you thinking that this parade of bums were "the best followed by the best, followed by the best?. I'm not knockin ya' if it is. It's as good a reality as any I suppose.

I will also add that I thought Dokes was heading for greatness that never manifested....I felt the same about Greg Page. I was sort of hoping they would both hone their talents to their personal bests and we would all get to see the collision. And that reality of course never happened.

I too was looking for that collision, and I think Greg would've taken it.In Michael's case as champion, the belt was won under fraudulent circumstances,(actually, his two fights with Ocasio were somewhat shady also).If he had taken the time to defend the NABF belt, by 1983, he truly would have been something to deal with.

[HomicideHenry]

Dokes could have been great, had he laid off the cocaine. He sure as hell gave Holyfield the best HW non-title fight of the 1980's. I consider him a champ, wasnt the best of the WBA title holders, but oh what might have been!

[bollox]

Michael Dokes was a fleeting titleholder rather than a champion, in my books. Unfortunately this applies to an ever increasing number of fighters

p.s. only a couple of days ago I again watched his fight with Holyfield fropm 1989. He fought like a champion that night but it still wasn't enough

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

p.s. only a couple of days ago I again watched his fight with Holyfield fropm 1989. He fought like a champion that night but it still wasn't enough

- Unfair fight. Dokes coming out of detox, and Mr. E. H. Field buffed out on his Mr. America vitamins.

[Seamus]

I considered him what he was. The WBA Champion.

[pringle]

Dokes had a style that looked great and flashy vs the John L. Gardners of the world but he really failed to impress when he stepped up in class. I consider him one of the weaker major paper champs of the 80s, although I seem to be one of the few who had him beating Weaver in their draw rematch (Hercules just didn't throw enough punches IMO)

You thought he was one of the weaker major paper champs of the 80's and I thought he was one of the stronger minor paper champs of the 80's, I can see we are gong to have problems here.

[HomicideHenry]

What might have been.

I still have a card from the RINGLORDS collection of Michael Dokes, along with the set of Meldrick Taylor, Pernell Whitaker, Chris Eubanks, Roberto Duran, Evander Holyfield, Tommy Morrison, Razor Ruddock, Lennox Lewis, Alex Stewart, Michael Nunn, etc

I'm sure the cards, along with the case it came in would be worth a pretty penny today.

Dokes, though, always stuck out in my mind. He could have been much better than he was.

[yiddle]

no way, how can you when holmes was around

[Adamj1987]

dokes was a champion in the same way valuev is now a top guy at the moment but you know they wouldnt beat the top 2 or 3 guys

[Robinson]

Dokes was a champion much the same way any man that drew
the colour line was, or the coloured HW champion was, or
any other ABC type champion was.

Dokes to me could be entertaining at times, his fight with Holy
comes to mind, and then he could be bloated and almost average
as he was in later fights.

[ghoster]

I don't even think Dokes would have been a paper champion if it weren't for Don King. I feel bad for Weaver, like so many fighters of the era he could handle the opponent in the ring, just not the promoter at ringside.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I don't even think Dokes would have been a paper champion if it weren't for Don King. I feel bad for Weaver, like so many fighters of the era he could handle the opponent in the ring, just not the promoter at ringside.

- Hah, already they've forgotten that Larry was a King fighter with a paper title.

From 79 to 83 Dokes fought Jimmy Young whom Holmes avoided, Lucien Rodriguez before Larry ever graced him with a title shot, then back to back Ocasio, Tex Cobb before Holmes ever graced Tex with a title shot, and back to back Weaver in addition to 7 other good journeymen types, giving Dokes a record of 12-0-2, avenging both draws, and 4-0-2 against Holmes' title comp.

Funny how Holmes record is papered over and then whitewashed, but Dokes given black marks for being a young dynamic fighter beating era contenders Larry didn't want to fight. Dokes penalized for losing his title to new champ, Coetzee, whom Larry also refused to fight.

Well, so it goes in bizzaro world.

[raylawpc]

I don't even think Dokes would have been a paper champion if it weren't for Don King. I feel bad for Weaver, like so many fighters of the era he could handle the opponent in the ring, just not the promoter at ringside.

- Hah, already they've forgotten that Larry was a King fighter with a paper title.

From 79 to 83 Dokes fought Jimmy Young whom Holmes avoided, Lucien Rodriguez before Larry ever graced him with a title shot, then back to back Ocasio, Tex Cobb before Holmes ever graced Tex with a title shot, and back to back Weaver in addition to 7 other good journeymen types, giving Dokes a record of 12-0-2, avenging both draws, and 4-0-2 against Holmes' title comp.

Funny how Holmes record is papered over and then whitewashed, but Dokes given black marks for being a young dynamic fighter beating era contenders Larry didn't want to fight. Dokes penalized for losing his title to new champ, Coetzee, whom Larry also refused to fight.

Well, so it goes in bizzaro world.

How did Holmes "avoid" Jimmy Young? Young lost to Ossie Ocasio in 1978 after dropping WBC title match to Norton, and then started off 1979 with another loss to Ossie Ocasio. He lost to Dokes in late 1979. Young dropped out of the top-ten in 1979, never to return.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

How did Holmes "avoid" Jimmy Young? Young lost to Ossie Ocasio in 1978 after dropping WBC title match to Norton, and then started off 1979 with another loss to Ossie Ocasio. He lost to Dokes in late 1979. Young dropped out of the top-ten in 1979, never to return.

- Young is 1 yr older than Larry, born and fighting within 50-60 miles of each other. At the end of 73, Young was 9-4-1, and Holmes 7-0.

Holmes is on the undercard of Ali/Young and Foreman/Young in addition to sharing a some common opponents prior to 79. Maybe he couldn't land a fight with Jimmy, but being affiliated with King and part of Ali's training camps since 71, the first time he tackles a ranked contender that I see is 78 with back to back Shavers/Norton bouts.

That's 6 long years of crossing paths with a natural local rivalry potential. Clearly Jimmy wasn't avoiding anyone, being thrown to the wolves early on and being a part of the golden era that Holmes is strangely absent from. Was Larry just a slow learner, or what? Young has wins over era names before Ali gets to them.

Not just Young, but Dokes, 9 yrs younger than Larry is fighting past and future challengers by his 3rd and 4th year, yet some how he also doesn't hold a candle to Holmes in spite of pulling pretty much even by 1980?

Like I say, Holmes record in this period seems papered over and whitewashed while more critical standards are applied to Dokes and Young, making them inferior. Nobody can get to all the top fighters, but there are a lot of big names in Larry's record MIA for whatever reason you wish to assign.

[Collins2000]

Right. Add Larry Holmes to the list of frauds. Lucky we have BRR in here to show us what fools we are. He might not have followed boxing in the 70's and 80's but his poring over the records is sure exposing us. I think it is time he went into the "West Coast" thread and sorted those lads out. There is far too much respect for fighters in that thread. BRR has shown that the true 21st century fan should spend all his time abusing fellow fans and belittling fighters of the past.

PS I blame Bobby Boxbuzz. This would never have happened on Bazza's watch.

[Robinson]

So Broughton

How do you see a Young-Holmes fight playing out. Had it
played out in say 1979-1980.

[Robinson]

Broughton

As much as you and the Gran man hate Holmes you have to
award him the credit of being consistent. Sure you can think
he got gift wins over Williams and Witherspoon, but in all of
those defences he was a consistent fighter.

Can you say this about Young or Dokes ? What part of either
mans career however 'poorly' managed they were did they
show you that they were consistent.

The biggest hicup for Holmes' entire career is his 3 losses in
a row 1985-88. Spinks and Tyson.

Thereafter he worked his way back into contention as an
'old man' dropping some close fights to credible opponents.
Holyfield, McCall and Nielsen.

Can you say this is the same for Dokes and Young?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Broughton

As much as you and the Gran man hate Holmes you have to
award him the credit of being consistent. Sure you can think
he got gift wins over Williams and Witherspoon, but in all of
those defences he was a consistent fighter.

- Look, as a pure fighter in the ring, there is much to admire about Holmes.

Don't know why some of you associate me with this granola fella, but the holes in Holmes record are big enough to drive a convoy of trucks through. The fact that a church has grown up around him and his sour grapes is aggravating as living next door to the church bells.

With gimmee type fights sprinkled liberally into an overall weak cast of defenses, it's much easier to be consistent than Young who was fed to wolves early and then yanked around and jobbed once he got good enough to really contend. At least they gave him Foreman.

I really can't get a handle on how Holmes/Young would go other than when they should've fought, Young was a legit contender and Holmes is holding back or being held back, which means advantage Young. Young would also clown Larry who was a deadly serious guy into foolishness.

As Ray mentions, after 78, Young loses his spark, his mojo and Larry is just entering the fray, so that's when Holmes has the advantage.

I don't like seeing the other champs/contenders disparaged when the facts are in the day, often more were watching them fight each other than they were watching Holmes against Lucien Rodriguez or Scott Frank, Zanon and so on.

[Collins2000]

Broughton

As much as you and the Gran man hate Holmes you have to
award him the credit of being consistent. Sure you can think
he got gift wins over Williams and Witherspoon, but in all of
those defences he was a consistent fighter.

- Look, as a pure fighter in the ring, there is much to admire about Holmes.

Don't know why some of you associate me with this granola fella, but the holes in Holmes record are big enough to drive a convoy of trucks through. The fact that a church has grown up around him and his sour grapes is aggravating as living next door to the church bells.

With gimmee type fights sprinkled liberally into an overall weak cast of defenses, it's much easier to be consistent than Young who was fed to wolves early and then yanked around and jobbed once he got good enough to really contend. At least they gave him Foreman.

I really can't get a handle on how Holmes/Young would go other than when they should've fought, Young was a legit contender and Holmes is holding back or being held back, which means advantage Young. Young would also clown Larry who was a deadly serious guy into foolishness.

As Ray mentions, after 78, Young loses his spark, his mojo and Larry is just entering the fray, so that's when Holmes has the advantage.

I don't like seeing the other champs/contenders disparaged when the facts are in the day, often more were watching them fight each other than they were watching Holmes against Lucien Rodriguez or Scott Frank, Zanon and so on.

Where's the beef?