"Gypsy"Johnny Frankham

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 26 Sep 2006, 17:22

Is it true that he knocked down Muhammad Ali(then known as Cassius Clay)during a exhibition fight?
What were the circumstances?
Did this happen when Ali was preparing for the first fight with Henry Cooper?
There is a on-line photograph of the knock down.
Ali looks to have a grimace of pain on his face.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 27 Sep 2006, 17:23

mercman wrote:I've never heard of this but if it did happen I can't see how it could have happened before Ali's first fight with Cooper. Frankham would have been about 14 at the time!

Aw, don't let facts spoil a good fantasy post.

TheRiverCityHippy · Post by **TheRiverCityHippy** » 27 Sep 2006, 17:43

hmm....looks like the work of tyson nuthuggers to me..........
sounds like the covert `psy-op`s` branch of the prime mike tyson fan club has been laying some groundwork before they release their magnum opus work onto the unsuspecting public -

MIKE TYSON WOULD HAVE KO`D CLAY IN 1 ROUND : ITS OFFICIAL.

nice try guys.

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 27 Sep 2006, 17:51

Don't be jackass without researching first.

Here is the picture Brutu was speaking of:

http://www.travellersinleeds.co.uk/trav ... gPhoto.jpg

Looks like pretty substantial evidence to back Brutu's claim. Ali is on the ground with another fighter standing over him and Ali clearly appears shaken.

Could always be a photoshopped pic but it doesn't look like it.

TheRiverCityHippy · Post by **TheRiverCityHippy** » 27 Sep 2006, 18:06

evndrbsn wrote:Don't be jackass without researching first.

Here is the picture Brutu was speaking of:

http://www.travellersinleeds.co.uk/trav ... gPhoto.jpg

Looks like pretty substantial evidence to back Brutu's claim. Ali is on the ground with another fighter standing over him and Ali clearly appears shaken.

Could always be a photoshopped pic but it doesn't look like it.

well as the other guys have already pointed out if the other fighter is frankham he`s had a hard life if he`s a teenager in that picture.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 27 Sep 2006, 18:20

evndrbsn wrote:Don't be jackass without researching first.

Here is the picture Brutu was speaking of:

http://www.travellersinleeds.co.uk/trav ... gPhoto.jpg

Looks like pretty substantial evidence to back Brutu's claim. Ali is on the ground with another fighter standing over him and Ali clearly appears shaken.

Could always be a photoshopped pic but it doesn't look like it.

Brutu's claims? He didn't make any did he?

He asked if Frankham knocked down Ali (then known asCassius Clay) during an exhibition. Ali changed his name in 1964 didn't he? At which time Frankham was about 14.

So, having looked at that photo are you saying it is conclusive evidence that Frankham knocked down a pre- world champ ali?

To me, it looks like an older Ali.

Maybe the boxing historians amongst us can clear this up?

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 28 Sep 2006, 02:31

Don't be fooled guys.
2 British boxers,one was Johnny Frankham and the other was Cliff Fields(not certain)were invited to box an exhibition with Ali.
Ali POSED for photos,by pretending to be knocked down.
I know a clan of the Frankhams who live round my area,and Johnny's nephew(or great nephew,yet again,not certain)worked for my dad a few years ago.
It's well known that Ali posed for this photo to be taken,in fact it's mentioned in a couple of books that gypsy/traveller fighters have written.

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 30 Sep 2006, 13:56

I wonder if its even Muhammad Ali or just a look a like?

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 30 Sep 2006, 14:02

Personally(INMOP) I think Muhammad Ali looked to be the most depressed and down in his professional life was when he did the commercial to promote the SUPERFIGHT show in 1969.(seen on the DVD)At that point,He didnt know then that he would get his lisence to fight again .I cant believe he would have agreed to have been knocked down in the script or even stopped even against a another ring legend like Rocky Marciano.He must have been hurting real bad ,finacially speaking that is.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 30 Sep 2006, 14:13

It probably happned during the late 70s when Ali was doing his exhibitions... he would quite often pretend to hit the deck and be hurt etc... a practise that the purists used to criticise him for...

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 12 Apr 2009, 20:16

I saw some little kid KO Ali in an exhibition also.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 12 Apr 2009, 21:35

Robinson wrote:I saw some little kid KO Ali in an exhibition also.

Careful, Kym. BRR will add that to the list of short guys who gave Ali all he could handle!

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 12 Apr 2009, 22:23

Even if the lad did drop Ali in an exhibition so what...
Ali always seemed to be the clown in these 'shows', so
it does not strike me as suprising that some one could
take advantage of that and floor him.

This is why they are not 'fights'.

It seems that only older era fighters get to have 'exhibitions'
to count on their pro records.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 13 Apr 2009, 12:18

Ali performed a few light-hearted sparring exhibitions at the Royal Albert Hall in London in 1973 or 1974 (when Frankham was a seasoned light-heavy) and faked the knockdown.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 13 Apr 2009, 15:47

Hey Bennie. Do you know what Frankham is up to these days? I always got a kick reading about him.

As I recall, the knock on Frankham was that he couldn't break an egg. Kind of funny seeing him standing over Ali. As I recall, Ali routinely faked knockdowns when sparring against local celebs.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 14 Apr 2009, 03:25

raylawpc wrote:Hey Bennie. Do you know what Frankham is up to these days? I always got a kick reading about him.

As I recall, the knock on Frankham was that he couldn't break an egg. Kind of funny seeing him standing over Ali. As I recall, Ali routinely faked knockdowns when sparring against local celebs.

Hi Ray. Glad that you seem to be coping with everything.

Sad to say that Johnny is currently banged up.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 14 Apr 2009, 10:14

bennie wrote:
raylawpc wrote:Hey Bennie. Do you know what Frankham is up to these days? I always got a kick reading about him.

As I recall, the knock on Frankham was that he couldn't break an egg. Kind of funny seeing him standing over Ali. As I recall, Ali routinely faked knockdowns when sparring against local celebs.
Hi Ray. Glad that you seem to be coping with everything.

Sad to say that Johnny is currently banged up.

Thanks Bennie. My coronary arteries are all clear - so all is good.

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 17 Apr 2009, 07:54

johnny had bags of skill and knew all the tricks. couldnt punch unfortunately.
whens he due out bennie?

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 17 Apr 2009, 08:16

harrygreb wrote:johnny had bags of skill and knew all the tricks. couldnt punch unfortunately.
whens he due out bennie?

Not for a good while. He and his gang ripped off pensioners with bogus house repairs. They were branded "evil" by the judge.

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 17 Apr 2009, 18:20

c'est la vie

metchampion · Post by **metchampion** » 17 Apr 2009, 19:49

I think the picture taken of Ali on the deck in London, was taken at the Paratrop regimental HQ, where Ali was preparing for the second contest with Cooper. At this time, he had Jimmy Ellis with him for sparring. Also in the gym that day was a young Jimmy Tibbs.

Jim sparred with Ali, but before he was able to do so, had to borrow a foul cup, from none other than Jimmy Ellis (Jimmy Tibbs had forgotten his that day). Subsequently, Jimmy Tibbs can be seen standing over Ali, wearing a foul cup bearing the initials "J E".

As for the knockdown itself, I dont think it was contrived so much, as a slip........................I'm not sure, erhaps one of the other posters may know more. I've only ever discussed it with Jimy once, that was recently and he explained how he ended up with the wrong initials on his foul cup!

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 19 Apr 2009, 15:29

This guy should be in the Modern Day Bare Knucklers thread I made.

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 19 Apr 2009, 16:21

johnny frankham would not have been a very good bare knuckle fighter. i assure you.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 20 Apr 2009, 03:47

metchampion wrote:I think the picture taken of Ali on the deck in London, was taken at the Paratrop regimental HQ, where Ali was preparing for the second contest with Cooper. At this time, he had Jimmy Ellis with him for sparring. Also in the gym that day was a young Jimmy Tibbs.

Jim sparred with Ali, but before he was able to do so, had to borrow a foul cup, from none other than Jimmy Ellis (Jimmy Tibbs had forgotten his that day). Subsequently, Jimmy Tibbs can be seen standing over Ali, wearing a foul cup bearing the initials "J E".

As for the knockdown itself, I dont think it was contrived so much, as a slip........................I'm not sure, erhaps one of the other posters may know more. I've only ever discussed it with Jimy once, that was recently and he explained how he ended up with the wrong initials on his foul cup!

It was definitely at the Albert Hall. If you look in the upper tiers you can see the reflections of those fans who are wearing glasses, and Harry Mullan, who did a brilliant feature on Frankham in 1975, mentions the picture which took pride of place in Frankham's then house (Frankham couldn't settle in it and went back to living in a caravan).
Said Mullan: "The living room is dominated by a blown-up picture of Johnny standing over Muhammad Ali, who's aping a knockdown during their exhibition at the Albert Hall."
Ominously, Mullan ends the piece with, "Let's go Hugh (the photographer), while we've still got the petrol money."

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 20 Apr 2009, 06:50

BARNEYKX wrote:with the size of the gloves used in that pic, if it was Frankham not a renowned puncher,and others have pointed out the age of Frankham then,im certain its a mock up pic

It's a genuine pic. Mullan was at the packed Albert Hall when it happened (everyone was laughing it was so obviously a typical Ali stunt)

"Gypsy"Johnny Frankham

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