If Hatton beats Pacquiao......

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

I would say Malingaggi has done equal to Witter.

By getting a gift against Ngoudjo (and that 1 should have been 9-3 to the African) and a gift against Ndou back to back? That combined with a sum total of 5 career stoppage wins and a poor defense, frightening stuff.

Few said that before Hatton battered him from pillar to post.

That seems like a judgement made with the benefit of hindsight. Mallingaggi, rightly or wrongly was seen as one of the leading lights in the division before he fought Hatton.

I see your point with regard to the other contenders, but beating two of the best pound for pound fighters in the world -- a big if, to be sure -- would be an exceptional achievement.

I always said Hatton would batter Mallignaggi, thought Ngoudjo was rightfully shafted, the only people who rated him were Yanks calling out for someone, I was hoping Witter would get to him first

As for the top 2 P4P fighters, well if Klitschko beat Chad Dawson and Joe Calzaghe how would you rate that? Beatin up great smaller fighters is hard to rate

[DG.]

...... and confirms he is fighting JMM next at 140 lbs - what would your views be, given that Hatton has been a champion at 147 lbs, and only a couple of years ago Marquez, who is 37, was fighting 126 lbs.

Remakable achievement from a pugilsitic specialist!

Fine show.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

zoo shot,
castillo shot
urango no good
magg no good.

Zoo was past prime but that was a great win. Castillo was shot, look at his gift against Ngoudjo and his subsequent fight.

Urango is the strongest man to have ever fought 140 or below and has a hell of a punch, I gave the Columbian about 4rounds in that 1, not much in the way of boxing skill or speed but hes a beast. Many had him getting a gift in his previous fight

Magg was never any good and got 2 gifts prior to the Hatton fight

Collazo was pretty good

Fact is Ricky hasn't taken on the hardest fights at 140 before or after , there is simply no disputing that

[J]

so taking on bradley is a harder fight than pac?

Zoo was shot dont remember you saying that at the time PN.


as for Ngougjo it was a close figh with castillo, which I thought he edged but hatton still despatched JC in convincing fashion so are you seriously suggesting Herman was a tough fight then? Urango just hammered him as well.

who do you want him to take on ? (please not the witter scenario again thats been done to death.)

Torres come on ? Holt? both top tenners but hardly stellar is it, cant blame hatton for fighting magg over those two surely?

Bradely been around since hatton fougth PBF as a champ so hardly a case of ducking him is it magg was the recognised number 1 challenger.
This is exactly ther type of one eyed shit criticism Im talking about.l

[DG.]

Fact is Ricky hasn't taken on the hardest fights at 140 before or after , there is simply no disputing that

Some people just so not get it!

Hatton is a fight picker because he generates cash. He will never fitht the REAL dangerous guys unless he has size over them.


DD

[DaveyH]

Hatton gets a lot of unfair criticism and I agree that some people will pull him apart no matter who he fights.
However, I'm not swallowing all this "wise after the event" crap regarding Malignaggi. Malignaggi was never a threat to Hatton and god knows why he was ever rated so highly! His career best performance prior to the Hatton fight was when he LOST to Cotto!
This is not a dig at Ricky because at the time of the fight Malignaggi was seen as the number 2 LW in the world but I never understood how the hell he was ranked so high. Prior to the Cotto fight he never fought anyone approaching world class, then since gaining credibility for standing up to Cotto's punishment for 12 rounds he was gifted 2 victories! He looked shocking on the undercard of the Hatton-Lazcano fight, and I don't mean his ridiculous hair!
Like I say, none of this is a dig at Hatton, but Malignaggi was only ever in the running because he was a charismatic "bad guy" type who sparked interest more for his mouth than his boxing ability.

[Carbo]

im arguing everyone is wise after the event and ricky cant win. many of the fights he was too scared to take (zoo) cos he was just apadded record fraud...he then took em on and won. (pbf apart)

then it was someone else then someone else etc etc.



if he took vlad on he would be ducking somone at 140.

Me too.

I also think that the idea that Tszyu was shot is particularly egregious.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

so taking on bradley is a harder fight than pac?

Zoo was shot dont remember you saying that at the time PN.

as for Ngougjo it was a close figh with castillo, which I thought he edged but hatton still despatched JC in convincing fashion so are you seriously suggesting Herman was a tough fight then? Urango just hammered him as well.

who do you want him to take on ? (please not the witter scenario again thats been done to death.)

Torres come on ? Holt? both top tenners but hardly stellar is it, cant blame hatton for fighting magg over those two surely?

Bradely been around since hatton fougth PBF as a champ so hardly a case of ducking him is it magg was the recognised number 1 challenger.
This is exactly ther type of one eyed shit criticism Im talking about.l

A champion should take his number 1 contender and Hatton has NEVER done this. After he beat Tyszu Mayweather and Cotto were ready and available, both moved up, Witter became the no1 by beating Harris/Ndou/Kotelnik partly due to it being a weak division, then Bradley dethroned Witter of no1 contender status. Malignaggi was never number 1 anything who has never really achieved anything in boxing. I feel sorry for Ngoudjo, robbed against Malignaggi, thought he beat Castillo (your right it was close I had him winning) and battered by Urango. Hatton batters Holt and probably beats Torres although the Columbian may have an outside shot, but both were better than Malignaggi, who I always said was a poor opponent, I buy most Boxing PPVs, most Hatton PPVs, but wasnt buying that 1 for good reason

yes I probably did get carried away in my youth saying Tyszu was shot, but he no longer had his stamina and couldn't pull the trigger as fast as many of us can't after a certain age.

[stujones]

I really cannot see how people thought Malingaggi lost against Ndou in the 2nd fight, and amazingly seemed to have forgotton the one sided first fight took place.

I did think he lost to Ngoudjo for sure, thought Castillo coasted to a close win against Herman also.

But really though - if we all go on the legitimate decisions - according to some.

Njoudjo - who should have got the decision against Castillo, should have also got a defeat against Mbaye..... Mbaye should have lost against Kotelnik, who beat Rees - who did get the justified decision against Mbaye..... and Kotelnik is now fighting Khan!!! (and being rubbished).

I am not taking that scenario seriously, although it highlights the differences of opinion and how our two most popular fighters are, arguably, unjustly being rubbished.

[DaveyH]

I really cannot see how people thought Malingaggi lost against Ndou in the 2nd fight, and amazingly seemed to have forgotton the one sided first fight took place.

If anything this little fact makes Malignaggi look even worse. Ndou was tough no doubt but beatable and this was proved when Malignaggi won the title against him. Then Malignaggi was given a gift against Ngoudjo, before fighting Ndou again on the undercard of Hatton-Lazcano, which was a terrible performance and another gift.

Was the division so weak that the best challenger for Malignaggi was a guy he beat via shut out less than a year before? Or perhaps, I suspect, Ndou was brought in to make Malignaggi look good in front of the British crowd, given how easily he handled him the first time. Malignaggi looked worse than he did against Ngoudjo and based on those 2 performances, I don't know how anyone could have seriously thought he'd be a problem for Hatton.

[crusader]

my thoughts are all the little hatton trolls will come on here slating hatton off for taking on the two best p4p fighters in the world in pac and marquez and try and diminish any achievement.

Its not as simple as that. As someone already alluded, if Wlad knocked out Calzaghe or Hopinks he would have beaten two pound for pounders as well. Its about Ricky going after guys who are much naturally smaller. Why not take on a p4p guy at 147 like Cotto or Mosley, who have moved up as well, instead of fighting little guys who have started their careers at much lower weights and only recently fought at 135, still a division lower than Hatton. And just because Pac and JMM were p4p from 126-135, doesn't mean they still possess the same threat as they continually gain weight.

I wouldn't discredit a win over JMM, obviously a great achievement, but beating a Cotto or Mosley would be an even greater accomplishment that would be impossible to find fault with.

[big lennox]

I think its fair to say that Hatton chases the big money for the least resistance, and I can't blame him for that.However, he'll never be considered a great champion (which he claims he wants to be). I qwholeheartwedly agree with Phenominal-neutrition in saying that Paulie M was not up to much.He just tried to survive and can't punch. Hatton says he is a man of the people, well those people wanted to see him box Junior Witter, and he never did.I find that amazing.Thissubject has been done to death, but the reality is, he never fancied his chances, if he did it would have been an easy fight to make.He also talks about how the ref gave mayweather victory. Absolute hogwash. The ref actually did him a favour- every time he wrestled/clinched with Mayweather, floyd whacked him to the body and hurt him.It would have been over in 8 rounds not 10 if joe cortez hadn't broke it up.I like hatton, but I've heard an awfully lot of excuses from him over the years.And before anyone says, what did junior bring to the table- he brought the british, commonwealth, european and wbc world title belts, and it would have been a sell out.

[jamesmcdonnell]

...... and confirms he is fighting JMM next at 140 lbs - what would your views be, given that Hatton has been a champion at 147 lbs, and only a couple of years ago Marquez, who is 37, was fighting 126 lbs.

That Hatton built the latter stages of his career on beating naturally smaller men.

If Pacquaio wins, it will be because despite the size difference, he was technically too good, too quick, and too accurate a puncher for Hatton.

didnt expect this form you mate.

so by the same taken when Hagler at the end of his career beat Duran and Hearns then lost to SRL he also built his latter career in beating on smaller men.


good for the goose is good for the gander.

Hagler was in his late thirties when he lost to Leonard, possibly older,depending on who you believe, and had already had a very long, very tough career. Leonard is also one of the greatest fighters of his or any era in terms of ability. Leonard had grown out of Welterweight by that stage.

Leonard and Hearns both started at 147, they weren't moving up from lightweight. Leonard and Hearns were also prominent fighters at 154. Pacman has only had two fights above 130, and one of those against a totally finished DLH.

Hagler also battered just about everyone else out there at middleweight - he'd pretty much cleaned out the division. I guess you could say that about Hatton, but not with quite the same conviction.

A fighter who started at 126, moving all the way up to 140 is a big percentage move in bodyweight especially given that Hatton is massive at 140. Marquez would probably be giving away 15 lbs or more on fightnight. That's a hell of a lot of weight to cede.

I like Hatton, but clearly, Pacman and Marquez are guys whose best fighting weights were 126-130, not 135, let alone 140.

Marquez just had a great result at 135, but I think a step up to 140 is asking too much. He would be giving away so much strength.

Pacman's power is phenomenal, but beyond 130, he hasn't really been able to knock anyone out, so he clearly has left some of that power behind, in terms of being able to stop people in their tracks.

[jamesmcdonnell]

so taking on bradley is a harder fight than pac?

Zoo was shot dont remember you saying that at the time PN.


as for Ngougjo it was a close figh with castillo, which I thought he edged but hatton still despatched JC in convincing fashion so are you seriously suggesting Herman was a tough fight then? Urango just hammered him as well.

who do you want him to take on ? (please not the witter scenario again thats been done to death.)

Torres come on ? Holt? both top tenners but hardly stellar is it, cant blame hatton for fighting magg over those two surely?

Bradely been around since hatton fougth PBF as a champ so hardly a case of ducking him is it magg was the recognised number 1 challenger.
This is exactly ther type of one eyed shit criticism Im talking about.l

To be fair J, Bradley is a proper 140 lber. Ok, he is not as talented as Pacman, but size counts for a lot in this sport.

[stujones]

Hagler was in his late thirties when he lost to Leonard, possibly older,depending on who you believe, and had already had a very long, very tough career. Leonard is also one of the greatest fighters of his or any era in terms of ability. Leonard had grown out of Welterweight by that stage.

Leonard and Hearns both started at 147, they weren't moving up from lightweight. Leonard and Hearns were also prominent fighters at 154. Pacman has only had two fights above 130, and one of those against a totally finished DLH.

Hagler also battered just about everyone else out there at middleweight - he'd pretty much cleaned out the division. I guess you could say that about Hatton, but not with quite the same conviction.

A fighter who started at 126, moving all the way up to 140 is a big percentage move in bodyweight especially given that Hatton is massive at 140. Marquez would probably be giving away 15 lbs or more on fightnight. That's a hell of a lot of weight to cede.

I like Hatton, but clearly, Pacman and Marquez are guys whose best fighting weights were 126-130, not 135, let alone 140.

Marquez just had a great result at 135, but I think a step up to 140 is asking too much. He would be giving away so much strength.

Pacman's power is phenomenal, but beyond 130, he hasn't really been able to knock anyone out, so he clearly has left some of that power behind, in terms of being able to stop people in their tracks.

Sorry to be pedantic, but Hagler was in his early 30's possibly slightly older. I think the oldest I have seen him down as is 1952. He was officially listed as 32 at the time of Leonard fight.

I generally can see what you are saying... didn't Marquez start off at 122 and Pacquiao even lighter. I do disagree with your views on Pac Man at 135...he's had 2 fights at 135 and above, stopping both guys (who have iron chins) - okay we can possible disregard the DLH fight cause who knows what the weight making process would have done for his durability and strength.... but Diaz was getting stopped in his tracks, thats why he couldn't do anything in the fight.

[big lennox]

Diaz also got a proper going over by a past it eric morales

[stujones]

Diaz also got a proper going over by a past it eric morales

Yes, Diaz isn't the greatest... but Morales didn't do the same job as Pacquiao - Pacquiao was hurting Diaz repeatedly.

[big lennox]

You have to bear in mind though that Morales was totally done as a fighter by that point though.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Hagler was in his late thirties when he lost to Leonard, possibly older,depending on who you believe, and had already had a very long, very tough career. Leonard is also one of the greatest fighters of his or any era in terms of ability. Leonard had grown out of Welterweight by that stage.

Leonard and Hearns both started at 147, they weren't moving up from lightweight. Leonard and Hearns were also prominent fighters at 154. Pacman has only had two fights above 130, and one of those against a totally finished DLH.

Hagler also battered just about everyone else out there at middleweight - he'd pretty much cleaned out the division. I guess you could say that about Hatton, but not with quite the same conviction.

A fighter who started at 126, moving all the way up to 140 is a big percentage move in bodyweight especially given that Hatton is massive at 140. Marquez would probably be giving away 15 lbs or more on fightnight. That's a hell of a lot of weight to cede.

I like Hatton, but clearly, Pacman and Marquez are guys whose best fighting weights were 126-130, not 135, let alone 140.

Marquez just had a great result at 135, but I think a step up to 140 is asking too much. He would be giving away so much strength.

Pacman's power is phenomenal, but beyond 130, he hasn't really been able to knock anyone out, so he clearly has left some of that power behind, in terms of being able to stop people in their tracks.

Sorry to be pedantic, but Hagler was in his early 30's possibly slightly older. I think the oldest I have seen him down as is 1952. He was officially listed as 32 at the time of Leonard fight.

I generally can see what you are saying... didn't Marquez start off at 122 and Pacquiao even lighter. I do disagree with your views on Pac Man at 135...he's had 2 fights at 135 and above, stopping both guys (who have iron chins) - okay we can possible disregard the DLH fight cause who knows what the weight making process would have done for his durability and strength.... but Diaz was getting stopped in his tracks, thats why he couldn't do anything in the fight.

Was he really? Christ, he was an old 32 then. I always thought Hagler was older than that. He certainly had a lot of miles on the clock.

In the Diaz fight it was stopped because Diaz was getting busted up. Pacman was absolutely flattening people at the lower weights, and whilst he still hits hard even at 135, he never came close to dropping an absolutely dessicated Oscar at 147, despite Oscar being little more than target practice.

Pacman is now at the upper limits of his punching power, he has to land a hell of a lot more shots to get the same end result these days.

The bottom line is, Pacman is now fighting way beyond his comfort zone, Hatton is a big strong bullish 140 lber, easily the biggest good man in the division.

Pacman is the better technician, and more adaptable, although hardly mayweather, he is much better defensively than Hatton, is quicker, and a better combination puncher too. All thing being equal I would make Pacquaio overwhelming favourite, but in this case, with the advantage of NATURAL size and strength as opposed to the gym strength of Pacquaio, I make Hatton a marginal paper favourite, but think Pacman will win on gut instinct.

[stujones]

You have to bear in mind though that Morales was totally done as a fighter by that point though.

Totally done, or just could no longer compete with the Paquaio's of this world? I know he lost 5 of his last 6, but 3 of them involved Pacquiao or Barrera (and two of those were very competitive). The loss to Raheem was a bad one, but I think the improvements he made in the Pacquiao rematched (compared to the Raheem display).

James - I have no doubts Hagler was older than 32 but thats the age the US TV was saying at the time - I have the original high street sale video of it.

I agree with what you are saying regarding Pacquiao, but then it could be that his power was always a tad overated. I mean, alot of his Super Feather /Feather fights went long . However, I do think he was stopping Diaz in his tracks, making him think twice about going in... he might not be lifting him off his feet in one punch KO's, but he definately has enough pop to hurt Hatton.

[jamesmcdonnell]

You have to bear in mind though that Morales was totally done as a fighter by that point though.

Totally done, or just could no longer compete with the Paquaio's of this world? I know he lost 5 of his last 6, but 3 of them involved Pacquiao or Barrera (and two of those were very competitive). The loss to Raheem was a bad one, but I think the improvements he made in the Pacquiao rematched (compared to the Raheem display).

James - I have no doubts Hagler was older than 32 but thats the age the US TV was saying at the time - I have the original high street sale video of it.

I agree with what you are saying regarding Pacquiao, but then it could be that his power was always a tad overated. I mean, alot of his Super Feather /Feather fights went long . However, I do think he was stopping Diaz in his tracks, making him think twice about going in... he might not be lifting him off his feet in one punch KO's, but he definately has enough pop to hurt Hatton.

I tend to agree Stu. The point I am trying to make is that this move to 140 could be a bridge too far. People are reading too much into his fight with Oscar. Oscar was horribly dehydrated coming in and barely offered any resistance.

It's a big step up from fighting Diaz at 135, to Hatton at 140.

As someone said to me recently - how many people think Hatton would have struggled with Diaz?

[Carbo]

Hagler was in his late thirties when he lost to Leonard, possibly older,depending on who you believe, and had already had a very long, very tough career. Leonard is also one of the greatest fighters of his or any era in terms of ability. Leonard had grown out of Welterweight by that stage.

Leonard and Hearns both started at 147, they weren't moving up from lightweight. Leonard and Hearns were also prominent fighters at 154. Pacman has only had two fights above 130, and one of those against a totally finished DLH.

Hagler also battered just about everyone else out there at middleweight - he'd pretty much cleaned out the division. I guess you could say that about Hatton, but not with quite the same conviction.

A fighter who started at 126, moving all the way up to 140 is a big percentage move in bodyweight especially given that Hatton is massive at 140. Marquez would probably be giving away 15 lbs or more on fightnight. That's a hell of a lot of weight to cede.

I like Hatton, but clearly, Pacman and Marquez are guys whose best fighting weights were 126-130, not 135, let alone 140.

Marquez just had a great result at 135, but I think a step up to 140 is asking too much. He would be giving away so much strength.

Pacman's power is phenomenal, but beyond 130, he hasn't really been able to knock anyone out, so he clearly has left some of that power behind, in terms of being able to stop people in their tracks.

Sorry to be pedantic, but Hagler was in his early 30's possibly slightly older. I think the oldest I have seen him down as is 1952. He was officially listed as 32 at the time of Leonard fight.

I generally can see what you are saying... didn't Marquez start off at 122 and Pacquiao even lighter. I do disagree with your views on Pac Man at 135...he's had 2 fights at 135 and above, stopping both guys (who have iron chins) - okay we can possible disregard the DLH fight cause who knows what the weight making process would have done for his durability and strength.... but Diaz was getting stopped in his tracks, thats why he couldn't do anything in the fight.

Was he really? Christ, he was an old 32 then. I always thought Hagler was older than that. He certainly had a lot of miles on the clock.

In the Diaz fight it was stopped because Diaz was getting busted up. Pacman was absolutely flattening people at the lower weights, and whilst he still hits hard even at 135, he never came close to dropping an absolutely dessicated Oscar at 147, despite Oscar being little more than target practice.

Pacman is now at the upper limits of his punching power, he has to land a hell of a lot more shots to get the same end result these days.

The bottom line is, Pacman is now fighting way beyond his comfort zone, Hatton is a big strong bullish 140 lber, easily the biggest good man in the division.

Pacman is the better technician, and more adaptable, although hardly mayweather, he is much better defensively than Hatton, is quicker, and a better combination puncher too. All thing being equal I would make Pacquaio overwhelming favourite, but in this case, with the advantage of NATURAL size and strength as opposed to the gym strength of Pacquaio, I make Hatton a marginal paper favourite, but think Pacman will win on gut instinct.

I think there's another reason for Pacquiao seemingly not hitting quite as hard up the weights, and that is that he's not as much a slugger as he used to be.

He used to be very left-cross happy, and do nothing for most of the fight beyond look for the big knockout blow. Now, on the other hand, he doesn't plant his feet hard and right infront of the opposition, but bounces on his toes, uses lots of movement, and uses fast combinations.

That adjustment has to have had, to a certain degree, a negative effect on his one punch power, albeit with a clear positive effect on his overall power.

Also, I heard Roach say that after the Diaz fight, Pacquiao said he didn't want to fight at 135 again, because he was tight at the weight.

Of course, the weight has a detrimental effect, but, at this stage of his career, after the shellacking he gave study, if unspectacular Diaz, and likewise to DLH, that he's natural enough at 135.

[stujones]

Yes, you could be correct.... and although I am one of those who think Marquez beat Pacquiao twice I'd like to see Marquez fight one fight at 140 before making a judgement.

Hatton himself looked horrible at 147, Castillo looked slow at 140..... both of these were considered "big" 140/135 lbs fighters respectably. The reason why I think Pacqioao shouldn't be given the same stick as Marquez (even though I think Marquez is his bogey man) is because Pacquiao has at least ventured once at 147, even if the fight turned out to be a dud. Plus whilst having a smaller frame, always seemed to be "tighter" at 126 than Marquez... who I think could make it tommorrow if he was asked to.

[big lennox]

How did you work that one out? Calzaghe has beaten Kessler and Hopkins.Hatton got absolutely smoked by Mayweather, and could come unstuck against manny p