The Mega ATG HW tourny Group 2-

[Robinson]

Group 2 match ups in the opening stages.

All set for 12 rounds.

Primo Carnera (250lbs) Vs Sam Peter (246lbs)

Max Baer (205lbs) Vs Jimmy Ellis (192lbs)

Leon Spinks (194lbs) Vs John Tate (224lbs)

Ezzard Charles (188lbs) Vs Georges Carpentier (176lbs)

Joe Louis (200lbs) Vs Joe Hipp (236lbs)

Michael Moorer (218lbs) Vs Oleg Maskaev (231lbs)

Hasim Rahman (226lbs) Vs George Godfrey (230lbs)

Mike Weaver (200lbs) Vs Ed Smith (178lbs)

Bruce Seldon (220lbs) Vs Sultan Imbragmivov (216lbs)

Rocky Marciano (184lbs) Vs Jem Mace (174lbs)

Ken Norton (210lbs) Vs Ed Martin (205lbs)

Sonny Liston (217lbs) Vs Arthur Pelkey (210lbs)

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Group 2 match ups in the opening stages.

All set for 12 rounds.

Primo Carnera (250lbs) via wide UD[/b] Vs Sam Peter (246lbs)

Max Baer (205lbs) via mid rd KO [/b]Vs Jimmy Ellis (192lbs)

Leon Spinks (194lbs) VsJohn Tate (224lbs) via mid round KO[/b]

Ezzard Charles (188lbs)via mid rd KO [/b]Vs Georges Carpentier (176lbs)

Joe Louis (200lbs) via early KO Vs Joe Hipp (236lbs)

Michael Moorer (218lbs) Vs Oleg Maskaev (231lbs) via late rd KO

Hasim Rahman (226lbs) via mid rd KO Vs George Godfrey (230lbs)

Mike Weaver (200lbs) via mid rd KO Vs Ed Smith (178lbs)

Bruce Seldon (220lbs) Vs Sultan Imbragmivov (216lbs) via mid rd KO

Rocky Marciano (184lbs) via early KO Vs Jem Mace (174lbs)

Ken Norton (210lbs) via mid rd KO Vs Ed Martin (205lbs)

Sonny Liston (217lbs) via first rd, first minute KO Vs Arthur Pelkey (210lbs)

[BoxBuzz]

Rahman over Godfrey? Were you thinking Arthur Godfrey? In which case Arthur could ask the lord to smite Hasim...just as a back up.

[BoxBuzz]

Otherwise I agree with your outcomes, with two other mild exceptions. I think Peter would more than likely bring the Alp down, but it's a crapshoot.

And Baer and Ellis would likely go the distance and end up to Jimmy's favor. But Max has always got the punchers chance. Hardest one to call IMHO.

[dempseyfire]

All set for 12 rounds.

Primo Carnera (250lbs) Vs Sam Peter (246lbs)

Max Baer (205lbs) Vs Jimmy Ellis (192lbs)

Leon Spinks (194lbs) Vs John Tate (224lbs)

Ezzard Charles (188lbs) Vs Georges Carpentier (176lbs)

Joe Louis (200lbs) Vs Joe Hipp (236lbs)

Michael Moorer (218lbs) Vs Oleg Maskaev (231lbs)

Hasim Rahman (226lbs) Vs George Godfrey (230lbs)

Mike Weaver (200lbs) Vs Ed Smith (178lbs)

Bruce Seldon (220lbs) Vs Sultan Imbragmivov (216lbs)

Rocky Marciano (184lbs) Vs Jem Mace (174lbs)

Ken Norton (210lbs) Vs Ed Martin (205lbs)

Sonny Liston (217lbs) Vs Arthur Pelkey (210lbs)

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Rahman over Godfrey? Were you thinking Arthur Godfrey? In which case Arthur could ask the lord to smite Hasim...just as a back up.

- Name a single fighter Godfrey beat that brings what Rahman brings to the table.

Can't figure out for the life of me how Godfrey gets elected to the HOF but not Primo other than non-American bias and size prejudice.

[BoxBuzz]

Primo was well....not so good so's you'd notice. Except to some current revisionists. And it's impossible to be certain which of his outcomes were physical vs those that were financial in nature. Yeah yeah I know, he had great strength but his punches typically could not crush a grape. Ali hit harder than Carnera.........OH and he had a great jab, unless of course those who were on the take were told to keep their distance and the jab served as good tool to measure that distance. We know that a few of his outcomes were paid for....we just don't know which ones, how many and under what circumstances. Sort of makes an genuine analysis difficult.

[dempseyfire]

Rahman over Godfrey? Were you thinking Arthur Godfrey? In which case Arthur could ask the lord to smite Hasim...just as a back up.

- Name a single fighter Godfrey beat that brings what Rahman brings to the table.

Can't figure out for the life of me how Godfrey gets elected to the HOF but not Primo other than non-American bias and size prejudice.

What exactly does Rahman bring? Slowness of hand and foot, bad stamina, and a telegraphed right hand?

Godfrey's career is really full of a bunch of 'what-ifs', but it's fairly clear that he was a much better fighter than Rahman unless he's getting paid to foul out as he often was.

Godfrey was also beating Carnera around the ring, forcing the Italian to hold and hit incessantly until the 'foul' in the 5th round.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Primo was well....not so good so's you'd notice. Except to some current revisionists. And it's impossible to be certain which of his outcomes were physical vs those that were financial in nature. Yeah yeah I know, he had great strength but his punches typically could not crush a grape. Ali hit harder than Carnera.........OH and he had a great jab, unless of course those who were on the take were told to keep their distance and the jab served as good tool to measure that distance. We know that a few of his outcomes were paid for....we just don't know which ones, how many and under what circumstances. Sort of makes an genuine analysis difficult.

- In 103 fights, Carnera-70% KO rate, Godfrey, 125 fights-65%, Ali, 61 fights- 61%.

In short, you and your little buddy don't have a pot to spit in. HOF packed with fighters affiliated with the mob. OK for Sharkey, Stribling, Langford, Godfrey, fill in the blank to throw the results, but throw the book at poor Primo, eh. Ali benefited greatly from two Liston victories and Folley, and even more under the protection of former mob numbers runner Don King.

I hope folks on this site are more honest brokers than you two. Carnera was the superior heavy compared to others of his era who are in, Sharkey, Stribling, Godfrey, Baer, Braddock, and a few more.

Sort of makes a genuine dialogue difficult.

[BoxBuzz]

Primo was well....not so good so's you'd notice. Except to some current revisionists. And it's impossible to be certain which of his outcomes were physical vs those that were financial in nature. Yeah yeah I know, he had great strength but his punches typically could not crush a grape. Ali hit harder than Carnera.........OH and he had a great jab, unless of course those who were on the take were told to keep their distance and the jab served as good tool to measure that distance. We know that a few of his outcomes were paid for....we just don't know which ones, how many and under what circumstances. Sort of makes an genuine analysis difficult.

- In 103 fights, Carnera-70% KO rate, Godfrey, 125 fights-65%, Ali, 61 fights- 61%.

In short, you and your little buddy don't have a pot to spit in. HOF packed with fighters affiliated with the mob. OK for Sharkey, Stribling, Langford, Godfrey, fill in the blank to throw the results, but throw the book at poor Primo, eh. Ali benefited greatly from two Liston victories and Folley, and even more under the protection of former mob numbers runner Don King.

I hope folks on this site are more honest brokers than you two. Carnera was the superior heavy compared to others of his era who are in, Sharkey, Stribling, Godfrey, Baer, Braddock, and a few more.

Sort of makes a genuine dialogue difficult.

Not at all, this is what GENUINE dialougue is all about, tolerance of diverse opinions such as yours and mine. However in this case what you are claiming in bold (done so for easy and quick reference) IMHO ain't necessarily so. And if someone else besides myself shares my rather common opinion, it does not mark a conspiracy of ignorance, but more likely just difference of analysis. Your version is simply your version, as is mine.

Oh, and while on the subject of various takes on this that and the other thing, I must insist I do indeed have a pot to spit in, though I typically don't choose to utilize it in that manner. So your thoughts on that subject are also riddled with deficits. Not that such an error of this kind alone is enough for us to draw any conclusion that your next statement will be any more or any less valid.

As is often the case...this matter simply "is what it is".

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Godfrey was also beating Carnera around the ring, forcing the Italian to hold and hit incessantly until the 'foul' in the 5th round.

- You must have been busy beating your eyes shut if you tried watching this fight.

Primo is clearly the superior boxer with Godfrey looking suspiciously like John Ruiz, jumping in with a single punch and clinch. Primo's too strong and can usually work an arm loose for some serious uppercuts. It's Primo using his very underrated footwork to maintain punching distance against a fighter who clearly had no intention of fighting.

Rahman beat better fighters, period. The only fighter of note that Godfrey beat was a smallish Larry Gains whom he is also DQed against in the rematch for low blows. Godfrey loses against the only HOFers he meets, twice by KO against little blinded Langford and once by fellow novice, little Kid Norfolk.

8 of Godfrey's 20 losses by DQ, 6 by KO. Oh brother, just dire for a HOFer. Primo beat 3 HOFers, but you always did lay down your money on all the old nags at the horse races, so no surprise you plump for dire over class.

[dempseyfire]

He also knocked out HOF'er Tiger Jack Fox.

You clearly can't look at old film well with your awful vision (which explains a lot of your other funny insinuations)

Carnera is the guy doing the holding . . not Godfrey. George is coming forward, counter-punching the crap out of Primo, while Primo grabs George and rabbit punches as best he can. If you can't see that with your Joe Frazier eyesight, you can read any write-up of the fight from people who were there.

[Robinson]

Primo was well....not so good so's you'd notice. Except to some current revisionists. And it's impossible to be certain which of his outcomes were physical vs those that were financial in nature. Yeah yeah I know, he had great strength but his punches typically could not crush a grape. Ali hit harder than Carnera.........OH and he had a great jab, unless of course those who were on the take were told to keep their distance and the jab served as good tool to measure that distance. We know that a few of his outcomes were paid for....we just don't know which ones, how many and under what circumstances. Sort of makes an genuine analysis difficult.

The tragedy is, that while Carnera is celebrated for having fixed
outcomes...it seems that many fights of his era and before were
as such as well. Yet other so called greats are not tarnished as
much as Carnera.

Primo was a little better at times than others. I find him hard to
judge as literature about the man seems to be different to how he
appears in the ring. I do not buy into the conclusions that all of his
better wins were worked fights.

I think Carnera is a lot better than he is often given credit for.

[Collins2000]

I think Carnera is a lot better than he is often given credit for.

Yet, the boxing writers who were actually there thought he was pretty dire, Kym.

[Robinson]

Good point. But boxing writers always seem to be pretty
condemning over 'current' fighters.

[Collins2000]

Good point. But boxing writers always seem to be pretty
condemning over 'current' fighters.

There was no serious attempt at rehabilitating him until all those who saw him ringside were dead and gone along with most of the fights themselves.

Now we have gimps like BRR and DaveV telling us all those blokes who saw him in the flesh knew nothing.

They, BRR and DaveV, based on a few 70 year old highlights from youtube, are suddenly able to tell us that he was really a lost legend.

No thanks. Smells too much like the Jack Dempsey - Jack Johnson fight that BRR's claims took place ie a fekkin crock of shite.

[Robinson]

I am also wary of the claims of many more modern writers
however.

I prefer to watch as much footage as I can of a fighter and
make up my own mind. Sadly, I can not do this for some of
the distant past greats.

From what I have seen Carnera is nothing special, big, awkward,
strong, quick to smile. But he is also not the only man to benefit
from fixed fights...yet his entire career seems to be riddled with
these condemnations more than many others.

[Robinson]

Whats worse...taking or making the bribe ? And how aware
was Carnera of his opponents intention$ ?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

He also knocked out HOF'er Tiger Jack Fox.

You clearly can't look at old film well with your awful vision (which explains a lot of your other funny insinuations)

- Clearly you need to change your name to direfire as you besmirch the name of both Jack Dempseys as much as White Tyson does to Iron Mike.

Tiger Jack Fox was a fine lightheavy, and maybe he deserves the IBHOF like Primo does, but he is currently not in the IBHOF in spite of beating a few HOFers like Primo did.

Moreover, Godfrey won a 10 rd decision over Fox, not a KO.

So the question has finally risen and begs for an answer, have you ever in your life been correct about anything?

[BoxBuzz]

He also knocked out HOF'er Tiger Jack Fox.

You clearly can't look at old film well with your awful vision (which explains a lot of your other funny insinuations)

- Clearly you need to change your name to direfire as you besmirch the name of both Jack Dempseys as much as White Tyson does to Iron Mike.

Tiger Jack Fox was a fine lightheavy, and maybe he deserves the IBHOF like Primo does, but he is currently not in the IBHOF in spite of beating a few HOFers like Primo did.

Moreover, Godfrey won a 10 rd decision over Fox, not a KO.

So the question has finally risen and begs for an answer, have you ever in your life been correct about anything?

When we choose to be critical in just such a fashion it typically means that the individual doing the critique believes himself to be of a superior nature within the context of said criticsim. Based on the above statement rendered in bold, combined with your assertive self confident manner, I must now assume you are 100% correct about all matters relating to boxing. I have made a note to carefully review your contributions in order to gleen this extraordinary knowledge about the sweet science for myself. I of course reccomend that others do likewise. I am comforted by your assurance that all that I read will be accurate, relevant and richly educational as well as highly entertaining. It is rare that one finds such a quality cornocopia of wisdom.

On behalf of the other observers and novice boxing enthusiasts who gather here, including Collins2000 himself, I wish to thank you and want to present to you the honorary key to these revered and hallowed halls of BoxRec.

When we are in doubt, or have questions of any kind, or review records or documents that appear to be in conflict in any way, we can rest assured that we have a valuable resource and unerring touchstone on which we may rely. In the boxing community there is no greater honor. (Other than allowing Mike Tyson to bite your ear into two separate and distinct chunks.)

But wait! There's more!

This durable and secure door to the research and development files comes with it! When something is simply too rich in context to share with the rest of us (perhaps due to it's remarkable complex brillance, or if some truth is perhaps too baffling or painful for the common boxing observer to reflect upon), you are free to use the key in tandem with the door, to securely stow this information away from the riff raff for safe keeping!






We thank you sir.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

We thank you sir.

- Nice door

[Rossman]

Primo Carnera (250lbs) Vs Sam Peter (246lbs)

Max Baer (205lbs) Vs Jimmy Ellis (192lbs)

Leon Spinks (194lbs) Vs John Tate (224lbs)

Ezzard Charles (188lbs) Vs Georges Carpentier (176lbs)

Joe Louis (200lbs) Vs Joe Hipp (236lbs)

Michael Moorer (218lbs) Vs Oleg Maskaev (231lbs)

Hasim Rahman (226lbs) Vs George Godfrey (230lbs)

Mike Weaver (200lbs) Vs Ed Smith (178lbs)

Bruce Seldon (220lbs) Vs Sultan Imbragmivov (216lbs)

Rocky Marciano (184lbs) Vs Jem Mace (174lbs)

Ken Norton (210lbs) Vs Ed Martin (205lbs)

Sonny Liston (217lbs) Vs Arthur Pelkey (210lbs)

[Ezzard]

Good point. But boxing writers always seem to be pretty
condemning over 'current' fighters.

I think it's more likely to be the opposite. Writers need access to the current fighters to get the stories. You can't go around slamming DLH and then try and get an exclusive interview with him. Writers will generally attempt to champion certain fighters as a way of trying to get access to them.

More established writers tend not to have to play this game.

Essentially current fighters generate money and column inches. The media are always trying to tell you that the current proponents of any sport/art are the greatest ever. It's what the general public want to hear. Enthusiasts prefer something more considered but mostly the media works on the assumptions that the enthusiasts will buy the ticket anyway, the money is in convincing the casual fan.

[Robinson]

Thanks for that Ezz.

Just got in from the fights. Great night, but Long.
I shall post the fight report shortly....

get your predictions in.

[HomicideHenry]

Primo Carnera (250lbs) Vs Sam Peter (246lbs)

Max Baer (205lbs) Vs Jimmy Ellis (192lbs)

Leon Spinks (194lbs) Vs John Tate (224lbs)

Ezzard Charles (188lbs) Vs Georges Carpentier (176lbs)

Joe Louis (200lbs) Vs Joe Hipp (236lbs)

Michael Moorer (218lbs) Vs Oleg Maskaev (231lbs)

Hasim Rahman (226lbs) Vs George Godfrey (230lbs)

Mike Weaver (200lbs) Vs Ed Smith (178lbs)

Bruce Seldon (220lbs) Vs Sultan Imbragmivov (216lbs)

Rocky Marciano (184lbs) Vs Jem Mace (174lbs)

Ken Norton (210lbs) Vs Ed Martin (205lbs)

Sonny Liston (217lbs) Vs Arthur Pelkey (210lbs)

My predictions.