De La Hoya #2 all-time welterweight?

[bjermaine]

after dlh announced his retirement he's now gone into the all-time boxrec rankings as the #2 welter of all-time with a 39-6 record. ok, we all know he's not #2 all-time but where do you think he ranks? welter and lb-4-lb all-time?

he's the greatest all-time when it comes to making money. no one can argue that.

[Diamond WEAPON]

Well boxrec's ratings take a lot of things into account, and I'd be willing to guess that Oscar's multi-divisional excellence and achievements are part of what places him so high as a WW. He fought and beat a number of top fighters from 130-140 and didn't lose until 147, his fourth weight class, and only barely to fellow greats Mosley and Trinidad. He won titles at 154 and 160 and even as his reflexes started giving way in his final years he continued to fight world class opposition and until Pacquiao was always competitive. He just barely retired so I'd be willing to bet with some adjustments coming soon and the fact that the All-Time ratings are constantly being reshuffled that he'll probably rise and fall within the top 15 permanently along with the likes of Leonard, Hearns etc.

I'd definitely place him within the top 100 All-Time P4P. He was a great fighter who absolutely swept across several weight classes and maintained his own high class ability to win. His 6 losses all came to guys who at some point were arguably considered the #1 P4P fighter in boxing (Trinidad, Mosley twice, Hopkins, Mayweather, and Pacquiao). He also beat two particular legendary fighters who were at one time the P4P #1 (Whitaker and Chavez) and are both guys who one could easily argue are amongst possibly the 25 greatest fighters ever P4P. In fact, the only guy who DLH didn't fight who at some point in DLH's career could've been considered the P4P #1 was Roy Jones Jr., but of course that was largely due to the wide weight discrepancy between the two (Chavez never fought fellow P4P peer Tyson either) Aside from those names he destroyed a number of guys from 130-140 who could've easily become great in their own right but were annihilated by Oscar, and two very big name tough fighters in Quartey and Vargas, guys who up to that point had both looked extremely dangerous thanks to their punching power and relentlessly violent styles. Overall Oscar was a great fighter who just happened to lose a few of his biggest fights, not unlike the great Thomas Hearns, but through it all he remained relevant for quite an extended period of time. He fought pretty much everyone out there within reason and is a definite first-ballot HOFer.

[bjermaine]

diamond, i pretty much agree with every word you wrote. well put.

[gregor]

He also beat two particular legendary fighters who were at one time the P4P #1 (Whitaker and Chavez) and are both guys who one could easily argue are amongst possibly the 25 greatest fighters ever P4P.

I agree both of them are arguably amongst greatest P4P fighters, the thing is one of them was past prime when lost to Oscar and another lost only on judges' scorecards. Still, this are the only minor details.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Well boxrec's ratings take a lot of things into account

- Then again, they don't take a lot of things into account.

Won't ever here me complain about boxrec since they provide a priceless database and this luverly forum, but even Oscar's most strident supporters know he's nowhere near #2 all time greatest welt.

The first JCChavez fight was a TKO of Chavez before first round since Chavez came into the fight with a huge open cut. Let's not make out like it was some magnificent win. I thought the Pea win better because Pea was still viable and provided lots of problems for him to solve.

Based on potential, yes, Oscar could've become #2 alltime, but he was distracted by becoming bigger than boxing and never found the right trainer to develop him properly.

[dempseyfire]

As a welterweight (including his venture at 154) . . .I don't know, perhaps top 50?

PFP all time somewhere in the bottom half of the top #100.

[BoxBuzz]

I like him, and though this sounds like I'm making excuses I think he may be deserving of a higher number than most might imagine at first reflection. If you want to rate on actual achievement he's no slouch. But if you add in his potential I think he gains a bit. Never has a such a successful fighter been able to overcome the distractions of great wealth in the way that he did. I think he might have done even better had he not become so rich. Money being a HUGE distraction in this sport. So after all is said and done he might actually come under the heading of an underachiever. Based on his talent.

And that's a pretty amazing life story if nothing else. Number 2? No, but you might be able to make a case for top half dozen with some asterisks. But not solely on actual achievement. So for the purists he may even be outside the top ten. If he really quits now I believe I can say with all honesty that at the top of his game he was better than everyone that ended up beating him (actually or by the judges whims). With the exception of BHOP....and even him if you take the argument pound for pound.

[allworld80]

I think he might have done even better had he not become so rich. Money being a HUGE distraction in this sport. So after all is said and done he might actually come under the heading of an underachiever. Based on his talent.

I agree 100%. I think he was wearing too many shoes after a certain point, and it certainly had to affect him.

[Rossman]

I would put a prime Oscar, at 147, in the ring against welterweight ever. I always thought he got jobbed in the Tito fight and saw the Mosley fight as a draw (if memory serves). All that being said I'm still not sure where I would rank him factoring in things like longevity at the weight, fight card, etc. - probably in my top 10 (definitely top 5 of those I've actually seen).

[Goodnight, Irene]

I'd have to consider him for a top fifteen spot, all-time amongst the great Welters. Certainly, noty beyond the limits of the top twenty ever in that class. All-time, the tail end of the top one-hundred, or perhaps a shade outside, I would think is fair enough.

[HomicideHenry]

I'm sorry but a prime Chavez would have beaten Oscar.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I'm sorry but a prime Chavez would have beaten Oscar.

That's highly-debatable. Personally, I would also favour Chavez, but De La Hoya has all the tools to get the job done in theory. At 135, Chavez was too seasoned, & De La Hoya too green. At 140, it would've been tremendous viewing, & a near-even battle. At 147, Chavez was too old & slow, as we saw, & the 147lb. De La Hoya would've had just as easy a time with the Chavez who lost to Whitaker as he did in '96 & '98.

[El Raincoat]

I love Oscar but he's not even second best 147 of his era let alone all time.

[I Feel Fine]

Oscar is not top ten at Welterweight, in my opinion. I don't think it could ever be argued that Oscar is #2 at the weight class. Between Robinson, Armstrong, Leonard, Gavilan and others, it would be an impossible conclusion to have Oscar that high.
Oscar did the most damage at 130-140. He was a real force at those weights, and he really tore some fighters up. He was a lot bigger and must have drained himself to make those weights, hard to imagine a Leija in with someone as big as Oscar, and Oscar hurts him with every punch; but I look at it from the perspective that if you can make the weight you deserve credit for the wins. In higher weight classes I thought he beat Trinidad, which is a great win, and his victory over Vargas was fun to watch. And he was a legitimate champion in four weight classes, which is impressive.
That said, I think he got gifts against Whitaker and Quartey. He lost to Mosley, lost to Mayweather. I suppose his loss to Hopkins does not mean much, though I do think that Hopkins would win even if they were the same size. His loss to Pacquiao is embarrasing, but I guess I can look past that. Oscar was clearly weight drained, clearly past his best, was getting old for a fighter. Oscar at his best probably stops Pacman.
All together; he is a great fighter, though on a rather low level of greatness, and he is top 100, though just barely. No one will confuse him with a Roberto Duran or Ray Leonard. There was something missing with Oscar. He had a lot of great assets, but things often went wrong for him in major fights. Maybe it was lack of stamina. His best moment was probably the 12th against Quartey, but he lost a lot of important fights in the late rounds (Tito, Mosley, Mayweather.)

[Diamond WEAPON]

I'm sorry but a prime Chavez would have beaten Oscar.

That's highly-debatable. Personally, I would also favour Chavez, but De La Hoya has all the tools to get the job done in theory. At 135, Chavez was too seasoned, & De La Hoya too green. At 140, it would've been tremendous viewing, & a near-even battle. At 147, Chavez was too old & slow, as we saw, & the 147lb. De La Hoya would've had just as easy a time with the Chavez who lost to Whitaker as he did in '96 & '98.

Oscar wasn't prime either. Oscar hit his primetime at 147. Chavez was in his prime at 135 and his early years at 140. Oscar was simply a naturally bigger fighter age-4-age, and so each of them in their primes it would've been a size mismatch. Yeah Chavez would've troubled Oscar with his skill and style, but Oscar at his best would've been teeing off on Chavez all night and likely would win a fairly close decision.

[Goodnight, Irene]

De La Hoya's prime, I consider, to be at 140, but it's a situation where you can certainly make the case he peaked at 147. He had most of his big fights there. It's much the same with Trinidad, for mine --- his greatest exploits lay at 147, but I think he peaked, as a fighting machine, at 154lbs.

[ts20743]

I guess Oscar earned some bonus points for retiring...
That makes no sense at all...

[Diamond WEAPON]

De La Hoya's prime, I consider, to be at 140, but it's a situation where you can certainly make the case he peaked at 147. He had most of his big fights there. It's much the same with Trinidad, for mine --- his greatest exploits lay at 147, but I think he peaked, as a fighting machine, at 154lbs.

That's what I meant, the weight/time at which he was at his absolute best as a fighting machine, so to speak.

[p4p1]

after dlh announced his retirement he's now gone into the all-time boxrec rankings as the #2 welter of all-time with a 39-6 record. ok, we all know he's not #2 all-time but where do you think he ranks? welter and lb-4-lb all-time?

he's the greatest all-time when it comes to making money. no one can argue that.

2nd to mike tyson

[p4p1]

Well boxrec's ratings take a lot of things into account, and I'd be willing to guess that Oscar's multi-divisional excellence and achievements are part of what places him so high as a WW. He fought and beat a number of top fighters from 130-140 and didn't lose until 147, his fourth weight class, and only barely to fellow greats Mosley and Trinidad. He won titles at 154 and 160 and even as his reflexes started giving way in his final years he continued to fight world class opposition and until Pacquiao was always competitive. He just barely retired so I'd be willing to bet with some adjustments coming soon and the fact that the All-Time ratings are constantly being reshuffled that he'll probably rise and fall within the top 15 permanently along with the likes of Leonard, Hearns etc.

I'd definitely place him within the top 100 All-Time P4P. He was a great fighter who absolutely swept across several weight classes and maintained his own high class ability to win. His 6 losses all came to guys who at some point were arguably considered the #1 P4P fighter in boxing (Trinidad, Mosley twice, Hopkins, Mayweather, and Pacquiao). He also beat two particular legendary fighters who were at one time the P4P #1 (Whitaker and Chavez) and are both guys who one could easily argue are amongst possibly the 25 greatest fighters ever P4P. In fact, the only guy who DLH didn't fight who at some point in DLH's career could've been considered the P4P #1 was Roy Jones Jr., but of course that was largely due to the wide weight discrepancy between the two (Chavez never fought fellow P4P peer Tyson either) Aside from those names he destroyed a number of guys from 130-140 who could've easily become great in their own right but were annihilated by Oscar, and two very big name tough fighters in Quartey and Vargas, guys who up to that point had both looked extremely dangerous thanks to their punching power and relentlessly violent styles. Overall Oscar was a great fighter who just happened to lose a few of his biggest fights, not unlike the great Thomas Hearns, but through it all he remained relevant for quite an extended period of time. He fought pretty much everyone out there within reason and is a definite first-ballot HOFer.

[bjermaine]

after dlh announced his retirement he's now gone into the all-time boxrec rankings as the #2 welter of all-time with a 39-6 record. ok, we all know he's not #2 all-time but where do you think he ranks? welter and lb-4-lb all-time?

he's the greatest all-time when it comes to making money. no one can argue that.

2nd to mike tyson

actually dlh is #1 all-time. he past tyson in his last couple of fights.

[p4p1]

after dlh announced his retirement he's now gone into the all-time boxrec rankings as the #2 welter of all-time with a 39-6 record. ok, we all know he's not #2 all-time but where do you think he ranks? welter and lb-4-lb all-time?

he's the greatest all-time when it comes to making money. no one can argue that.

2nd to mike tyson

actually dlh is #1 all-time. he past tyson in his last couple of fights.

fair enough lol that is quiet suprising at least he wont go broke like tyson

[bollox]

He'll go half broke if he ever gets divorced

[allworld80]

He'll go half broke if he ever gets divorced

His half broke would still be nice to have though.

[p4p1]

He'll go half broke if he ever gets divorced

His half broke would still be nice to have though.

shit yeh