HBO special "Thrilla in Manila"

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

It's Don King mate, it says so in the caption.

- Indeedy, so it is now, but I could have sworn the claim was Joe Frazier the other day.

Gotta keep hope alive for my little friend Colly who will be thrilled that I mention his name. Just like I was able to email a well know boxing writer after spotting a silly error in a just released article, he was able to instantaneously make the edit with nobody but me being the wiser.

Hopefully Colly will remember his extra and special old school typeset editions I l'arned him about. Then again perhaps the silly little error is mine.

I spent a few minutes mystifying over the hair which I took mostly to be a shadow, and then, what happened to Mr. King's legs? Looks like they photo shopped the polio crutches out.

Speaking of which, had Mr. Donny danced like that with Mobutu's wife, he might've left Zaire with his legs and head in seperate boxes.

[Joey Calzone]

Joe's face was busted up and he was nearly blind.

Ali collapsed after standing up to celebrate his victory.

After witnessing Joe's behavior at the end of round 14, and Ali's collapse after the fight was stopped, I find it impossible to make a concrete decision of who would have gone down once and for all if the 15th was allowed to play out.

[Diamond WEAPON]

Come on though, When We Were Kings didn't make Foreman out to be the antichrist. I mean, I'll admit, I did not know that Ali was attending Klan rallies. I thought that was a bit disturbing, to say the least. But, the idea that Frazier is a martyr or that the biggest achievement Ali ever had in his career, that he did on his own, without help, was to comb his hair during training camps is a bit extreme. You do not need to respect Ali as a person to respect his career, something that some boxing fans somehow miss in a sport that has had a fair share of bad guys (Carlos Monzon's misdeed was a bit worse than calling Frazier ugly.)

Ali said some things about Frazier that were wrong; but this is boxing. I mean, Roberto Duran spit on Leonard's sister and gave his wife the finger. Leonard says that he gets along with Duran today. I am not saying that I expect Frazier to be Ali's friend, but there is a point where you can be too sensitive, and where that sensitivity can be a negative. And the things he said about Ali's disease or about how he wanted to kill Ali were just as vicious as anything Ali ever said (not to mention that if Frazier had fought on for as long as Ali did, against the same quality opposition, that Frazier would not look so good today either.)

And the documentary ate it all up. I mean, just look at the footage they showed of the first fight as an example. Watching it you would think that Ali lost every round, which his worst critic would not claim. I think that encapsulates how the rest of the documentary was made. Not to mention their failure to mention Ali's ring rust, to show any footage of the second fight, to mention what the ref did in the 2nd round of that fight, to mention Frazier's lowblows and headbutts throughout the trilogy which are penalties that actually draw point deductions, as opposed to holding which at most draws a warning or two. Ask Lennox Lewis how many points he lost for that sort of thing, why does Ali always get pinned on that? How about Ruiz and Wlad? Ali clearly won the second fight, and it was not only because he held. He had much more stamina in the rematch because he had been much more active in his schedule prior to that fight than he had been prior to the first match. Same in Manila.

Like I said, only Frazier's mother and granberry, working as a writing team, could have produced that documentary. I feel that this is getting a bit old, and that Frazier is at this point merely looking for attention, which he has not had in a long time. And the least the film makers could have done was mention that Ali has since left the Nation of Islam (only months after Manila) and is no longer an advocate of any of the rather racist beliefs he once held. And I thought the media conspiracy was supposed to be biased for Ali...

And how about Holmes calling Ali overrated? How about Holmes try beating someone half as good as Frazier before talking that way about Ali? Holmes suggested that Ali did not hit hard and that Ali had poor defense... which is the pot calling the kettle black, I would say, but that might sound too racial for our PC world. God help me if I called him a gorilla, as opposed to a rabbit or a bear or an acorn.

Thanks, by the way. What happened to granberry, anyway? Banned?

I agree with what you said about Holmes. Larry Holmes is an asshole and one of the most overrated fighters in history. Look what happened to him when he had a layoff and came back, Mike Tyson turned him into a fuckin highlight reel victim, at least Ali was competitive with Frazier and made it to the final bell.

[Robinson]

NO

[Jeff1313]

It never really occurred to me that 34 years after the end of the trilogy there would remain such polarization between Ali and Frazier fans. I too grimace when I see Ali holding the gorilla doll. I am sure any racial overtones are well regretted by Ali. But, in some ways, Ali changed the way race was perceived in this country. I remember in the 1960s my father hated "Clay"; called him a cocky "n". I was just a kid. What did I know. I remember watching the Zora Folley fight on television with my Dad and him hoping that "Clay" would get knocked-out. But, his view of Ali changed over the years and he was a big fan when we watched Ali/Frazier II together; the Howard Cosell interview with the two protagonists, etc. So, something changed in our worlds and Ali had a role in that.
One comment about Larry Homes (the "Peanut" as Ali called him). I do think he knows Ali well; my goodness, he did spar with him in Africa and other times. I am not sure of his motivation in dissing Ali these days. However; do not take anything away from Holmes. He dominated the heavyweight ranks for several years and was a very entertaining fighter. He moved so well and so easily and had such a wonderful jab and combination. One fight I would like to see again is Holmes/Norton. I remember watching it so many years ago and thinking that Holmes won an easy decision only to find out it was almost a dead heat (the judging again left a lot to be desired). What a 15th round!! Ali struggled mightily with Norton and with Fazier; both of whom were brushed aside by Foreman who was more easily dispatched by Ali then anyone could have imagined.
Finally; one of my favorites - Ernie Shavers. No one would fight him. He was like the "good" Sonny Liston; unable to get fights because of his punching prowess. Norton, Foreman, Frazier . . . none of them would touch him. Those would have been amazing fights.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Finally; one of my favorites - Ernie Shavers. No one would fight him. He was like the "good" Sonny Liston; unable to get fights because of his punching prowess. Norton, Foreman, Frazier . . . none of them would touch him. Those would have been amazing fights.

- Come now Jeff, let's not be silly about our favs. Shavers a beloved fighter, but back before Foreman and Frazier retired, he'd hardly made himself a household name or ranked fighter.

And Norton did fight him, or did you forget? Norton right at the end of his career. I believe Norton is the first ranked contender Shavers beat.

Oh, he beat Ellis far removed from his glory days of the late 60s, and then turned around and lost by KO to Quarry and Lyle and dropped a decision to Stallings.

Blame Shaver's raw beginnings, management and Shavers himself for his shortcomings. He certainly could've worked on his stamina, and he actually did improve his game for when he got his shots against Ali and Holmes. Much greater fighters than Ernie never got title shots, so no need to cry for Ernie.

[Robinson]

I just watched the doco.
Was ok. No idea why people are making a big deal about it.
Good to see Frazier, though he is looking frail in it.

[I Feel Fine]

Please Robinson... if one of Holmes' opponents had that sort of documentary made about them- and they could, Holmes was quite abusive to many opponents outside the ring, more than Ali ever was, and he got more than a couple of gifts, while Frazier had three perfectly fair shots at Ali- you would certainly not find it "ok." I get the feeling that people on this forum just wanted to see a negative documentary about Ali, with no regard to its accuracy. It is a bit petty.

[Robinson]

But from what I have gathered most of the criticisms isn't so much about
Ali being 'abusive' to his opponents but is more about how mis guided his
ideologies and agenda was/

Besides who that Holmes faced was he more aggressive towards in word
than Ali was towards Frazier ? Plus I think nearly every opponent feels that
they were robbed by a stoppage or decision when facing the champ. Thats
Frazier's right...I personally feel he lost fight 2 and the stoppage while theories
abound was a fair call by Futch.

The self incrimination of going to KKK meetings the racist rhetoric on international
TV, the infedility, the betryal of a man who was long supportive of you in your
'exile'...those ar things that Holmes has never done.

Nothing in the doco was anything 'new' to me, that I had not already read or
seen. So perhaps I was not suprised. It was interesting to watch but certainly
not the best boxing doco I had ever seen.

[Robinson]

Plus I figure Holmes is more than capable at defending himself
if said opponent made such a doco about him.

But if one of Patterson's former opponents made one, or someone
said some thing nasty about Floyd...I would be up in arms ! ;)

[I Feel Fine]

The documentary suggested that Frazier got raw deals, which is untrue, which is something that could be said of some of Larry's title opponents. The documentary talked a lot about how badly Frazier's over-sensitive feelings were hurt by Ali. Holmes had his stupid comment about Marciano, Holmes physically attacked opponents outside of the ring, Holmes was much more verbally hostile to opponents than Ali was. Holmes did talk about race, though not as much as Ali did. I find it quite remarkable how you are so ready to pass judgement on Ali but seem oblivious to anything un-kosher about Holmes' career.

I believe I have seen you mention Ali's infidelity before. What is the interest there? How many Heavyweight champions were adulterers? Probably half? Why is that relevant? Why is Frazier hitting women not?

I really do not understand the logic of being an Ali critic and a Holmes fan. Holmes' personality was no less ugly than Ali's, being genersous, with a less impressive career.

Edit: I see you posted something else. Is that not another point? Ali cannot really defend himself. I wonder if they even asked him to appear, but if they could have, how much could he have really said, considering his condition?

[Robinson]

Fraizer suggested these things. In my book Frazier has earned the right to
have a soap box to say what he likes, whether we agree or not.

The doco never said these things...just Frazier and those who were there.

I am not an Ali critic. I am just more impartial than say yourself on such
matters.

Besides Ali and Holmes were two vastly different people/

[I Feel Fine]

I am not impartial? I have said on this forum that Ali received gifts towards the end of his career. I have said that Ali was wrong to say some-though not all- of the things that he said about Frazier, specifically when he brought politics into it. When have you ever said anything critical of Holmes or of one of his controversial decisions?

Why is Frazier allowed a biased documentary that does not give the other side of the story, yet I am ever hearing about how bad When We Were Kings was? Because of quantity? Seems quite unprincipled.

[Collins2000]

Holmes physically attacked opponents outside of the ring,

Holmes was much more verbally hostile to opponents than Ali was.

Holmes did talk about race, though not as much as Ali did.

Can you give us some examples?

I know about Holmes attacking Berbick but you talk of multiple attacks. Can you elaborate?

[I Feel Fine]

I believe it was after the Leon Spinks fight that he went after Cooney for no reason, saying he was going to "slap his face" with people holding him back. Berbick was the other, more famous example.

He did get into a little bit of a scuffle with Snipes, but Snipes started that one.

[dempseyfire]

Reportedly, Berbick was calling Larry's wife a whoar, and that sent Larry off. To decry the unstable Berbick as some sort of 'victim' of Holmes is ridiculous.

Larry was from the street, if he believed he was being seriously dis-respected, he retaliated.

[I Feel Fine]

And what did Cooney do? He happened to be white and popular?

Holmes jumping over a car to attack someone is not acceptable behavior, especially by the standards some have set for Ali. Holmes in the 70s and 80s got unfair treatment, but today it seems like the opposite with some fans.

Holmes is a top five Heavyweight in my opinion. I liked many of his fights a great deal. But when he tries to present himself as equal to or even better than Ali, he falls flat on his face. He is to Ali what Gehrig was to Ruth; Gehrig was a phenom, he did not get enough attention because of Ruth's overwhelming popularity... but the fact remains that Ruth was better. And when people try this revisionism of saying that Ali was a bad guy, Ali got gifts, Holmes was underrated, he should not have been in Ali's shadow... it is very short sighted and hypocritical.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Larry was from the street, if he believed he was being seriously dis-respected, he retaliated.

- Oh come now, he's from Easton, Pennsylvania, population barely 25,000 back when and out in the countryside.

I swear you should quit your day job and go on the comedy circuit.

[I Feel Fine]

I am sure that Holmes did grow up in tough circumstances. He had to quit school when he was a child. But the notion that this gives him license to jump over a car and attack someone is ridiculous. Or to try to attack someone else for absolutely no reason. If you are going to use that logic, why all the fuss about Ali? Is it not true that Ali, while he was growing up, saw that trash talk was the best way to sell a fight, and that this was his main goal in ridiculing Frazier? Is it not true that Ali fully knew that he would have to get into the ring and take the backlash for his statements, and that he was fully willing to do so? Why is calling someone ugly worse than trying to attack them physically outside of the ring? This is half logic.

My perspective is that I could care less about what fighters do outside the ring. But if we are going to have these discussions, then I would say, yes, Ali was wrong to call Frazier an Uncle Tom. Ali was unjustly banned from boxing because people brought politics into the ring, and Ali was therefore wrong to bring politics into the Frazier fights. But do not suggest to me that Ali was somehow the worst person in boxing history; he's not even top ten, and he is certainly no worse than someone like Holmes. I am not going to pretend to be offended by Holmes' actions; I usually chuckle when I see the video of Holmes jumping over the car. But do not suggest to me that this is acceptable behavior.

And that is forgetting Holmes' comments about Ali as a boxer. Holmes is in no position to criticize Ali's skills as a boxer, or anything else in his career, for that matter.

[Collins2000]

I believe it was after the Leon Spinks fight that he went after Cooney for no reason, saying he was going to "slap his face" with people holding him back. Berbick was the other, more famous example.

He did get into a little bit of a scuffle with Snipes, but Snipes started that one.

The Holmes - Cooney scuffle was nothing at all. It is available on the Spinks telecast. It was akin to Ali showing up with carrots for "The Rabbit" and getting into a little pushing/shouting act to build up the gate and perhaps unsettle Patterson. Neither event could be construed as a 'physical attack'.

Next!

[I Feel Fine]

Nonsense, collins.

[Collins2000]

Nonsense, collins.

How many blows did Holmes land on Cooney during this "physical attack"?

[I Feel Fine]

He was being held back; does that make it alright? Why couldn't he promote the fight in some other way? Was it racially motivated? Maybe someone should make a documentary speculating on that incident, Cooney might still be scarred...

[Collins2000]

He was being held back; does that make it alright? Why couldn't he promote the fight in some other way? Was it racially motivated? Maybe someone should make a documentary speculating on that incident, Cooney might still be scarred...

So he landed zero blows during this "physical attack"?

And you say I talk nonsense?

[HomicideHenry]

Ali abusive to his sparring partners? Nah. Least not on the physical level, considering for the most part he let them beat the holy hell out of him in preperation for his fight with Foreman and others, when he got on the 'rope a dope' kick. But he was harsh on the emotional level. He was once quoted as saying 'Sparring partners are the lowest level of life', and Tony Doyle over heard Ali say this. So when Doyle and Ali got ready to spar, Ali came out slow and Doyle landed three hooks in a row, stunning Ali, to get the point across that they (his sparring partners) were just as beneficial to his success as himself.