Top Ten post-war British Heavyweights

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 28 Jul 2004, 08:22

Over the coming months, BritishBoxing.net's contributors will be banging their heads together to try and come up with a list of top ten British boxers for each major weight division post-1945.

We've started off with the big lads.

We hope this will prove an interesting feature and spark off some debate!

Please go and have a look if you get time. We'd love to hear your views!

http://www.britishboxing.net

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 28 Jul 2004, 08:57

1] Lewis
2] Bruno
3] Cooper
4] Farr
5] Woodcock
6] Erskine
7] Cockell
8] Bugner
9] Hide
10] Notice

PS: Danny Williams could be in the top five come Saturday.

journeyman · Post by **journeyman** » 28 Jul 2004, 09:03

imo..

1. lennox lewis (no brainer)
2. bob fitzsimmons (if you can count the 170lber as a hw!)

best of the rest...

3. henry cooper
4. frank bruno
5. joe bugner

now it gets real tricky...

6. tommy farr
7. joe erskine
8. gary mason
9. don cockell
10. brian london

definitely needs more research and a bit of debating, tho...

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 28 Jul 2004, 09:04

bennie wrote:1] Lewis
2] Bruno
3] Cooper
4] Farr
5] Woodcock
6] Erskine
7] Cockell
8] Bugner
9] Hide
10] Notice

PS: Danny Williams could be in the top five come Saturday.

8 of yours made our top ten. Horace didn't quite make it and Farr was disqualified as most of his career was pre-1945. Ha - could be a rethink at the weekend, granted!

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 28 Jul 2004, 09:05

Journeyman - post-1945 mate.

London and Mason made the shake up but not the final 10!

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 28 Jul 2004, 09:07

Fitzsimmons is always tough because he did all his boxing for other countries - and was an American citizen when he won the world heavyweight title.

journeyman · Post by **journeyman** » 28 Jul 2004, 09:08

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:Journeyman - post-1945 mate.

London and Mason made the shake up but not the final 10!

didn't spot that - let me try again...

1. lennox lewis
2. henry cooper
3. frank bruno
4. joe bugner
5. joe erskine
6. jack bodell
7. herbie hide
8. gary mason
9. don cockell
10. richard dunn

i gotta have big gary in there - probably the first boxer i started watching regularly when i was a kid

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 28 Jul 2004, 09:10

Oh, yes. Post-1945. Joe Erskine is sorely underrated. I would place him above Bugner, who, like Cockell, was more durable than out and out successful.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 28 Jul 2004, 09:19

Not sure what criteria this is based on, talent? titles? who beats who?

1 - Lewis
2 - Bruno
3 - Bugner (under-rated and under-achiever)
4 - Cooper
5 - Erksine
6 - Mason
7 - Bodell
8 - Hide (it was a thin slice but he had it twice)

bugs · Post by **bugs** » 28 Jul 2004, 09:28

How can you be both over rated and an under-achiever. Is it just a middle of the road mediocrity you are aiming for?

Definately Lewis on Top, Bruno probably next for me, couldn't box that well, but he could bang and got to the top. Cooper was pretty special, but other than the infamous Ali incident never really showed it on a world stage.

Touhg to have Hide in the top ten, I really like the way he fights and as long as his chin stays out of it he can compete at the top, but devestating defeats to Klitchsko and Bowe really showed him up (and the Zimbabwean guy).

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 28 Jul 2004, 09:32

Bugs.

I said under-rated and under-achiever.

bugs · Post by **bugs** » 28 Jul 2004, 09:37

yeah I saw that I just wrote it wrong,

that you for putting me right, I am going to pretend that you did not have an ounce of the calm patronising parent in your voice when you said it.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 28 Jul 2004, 09:38

bugs wrote:yeah I saw that I just wrote it wrong, that you for putting me right, I am going to pretend that you did not have an ounce of the calm patronising parent in your voice when you said it.

Haven't seen you for a while, Bugs. What's all that Monteiro talk about?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Jul 2004, 09:42

bennie wrote:Oh, yes. Post-1945. Joe Erskine is sorely underrated. I would place him above Bugner, who, like Cockell, was more durable than out and out successful.

Bugner was an excellent defensive fighter, but I think he lacked a fighter's heart, technically he was very good, which is proven by staying the course with even a slightly past it Joe Frazier. He could have beaten the old and washed up Ali he faced, but just wouldn't put his foot on the gas.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 28 Jul 2004, 10:32

bugs wrote:yeah I saw that I just wrote it wrong, that you for putting me right, I am going to pretend that you did not have an ounce of the calm patronising parent in your voice when you said it.

No worries man.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 28 Jul 2004, 10:38

my top ten.

1) Lewis
2) Bruno
3) Bugner
4) Cooper
5) Bodell
6) Mason
7) Notice
8) Hide
9) Erskine
10) Cockell

I've rated Bugner above Cooper, not because of his victory over Cooper but in my opinion he was just a more talented fighter, not that this is going to get many of you agreeing i feel.

Hide is in at number 8 as i feel that any of those above him would have either to much talent or just have more will to win.

bugs · Post by **bugs** » 28 Jul 2004, 10:51

bennie wrote:Haven't seen you for a while, Bugs. What's all that Monteiro talk about?

Not posted for a couple of weeks only. And I dont think I ever posted about Monteiro (portuguese guy that beat Takaloo right?).

Later.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 28 Jul 2004, 10:55

topper123 wrote:
I've rated Bugner above Cooper, not because of his victory over Cooper but in my opinion he was just a more talented fighter, not that this is going to get many of you agreeing i feel.

talent wise Bugner in my opinion is number 2 only to Lennox

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 28 Jul 2004, 10:57

knockout wrote:
topper123 wrote:
I've rated Bugner above Cooper, not because of his victory over Cooper but in my opinion he was just a more talented fighter, not that this is going to get many of you agreeing i feel.

talent wise Bugner in my opinion is number 2 only to Lennox

Mickey Duff said Bugner's great misfortune was that he never punched his weight.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Jul 2004, 11:10

I read a bit about him in that book 'Facing Ali' he sort of fell into professional boxing, he was a wrestler for a bit, and a bodybuilder if I remember correctly.

J · Post by J » 28 Jul 2004, 11:13

TOP BOOK THAT!
yeah he emigatrated dissillusioned with Britain as no one had ever given him any kudos.
Obviously part of this comes from the Cooper fight, perceived as firstly a robbery and secondly beating up a member of royalty at the time (remember the brut adds? Splash it all over).

He has always struck me as a bitter loudmouth in all honesty though and I think this was probably more the reason know wanted to give the braggart any credit at the time. Now he is in Oz being typically British we are prepared to acknowledge his skills now!!!!

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Jul 2004, 11:26

I wasn't that mad on the book, but definetly had it's good bits, the chapter on George Chuvalo was particularly revealing, and Joe's fraziers bitterness was practically eating it's way through the pages of the book, he really does bear a grude.

Frazier really isn't the brightest of men, and he cannot understand why Ali is the hero of the piece.

I think he has some points though. Ali was very unkind to Joe, although Ali probably saw it all as pre-fight hooplah, calling him an uncle tom, and using the racial stereotype of the gorilla as an insult was very unfair. Joe was a guy who came up much much harder than Ali, as was Foreman, and yet somehow, Ali got away with chiding them with not being 'black enough.' This always struck me as strange as Ali was a light skinned black man who was far more au-fait with the white world than either Foreman, Frazier or Liston. Ali by contrast had a fairly easy middle class existence compared to these men, and perhaps this is why he had the luxury of bucking the system, he had less fear of the system than these three who had experienced the very worst of what it meant to be a black man in America.

The trouble is, Frazier has allowed that to colour the rest of his life, he comes across as an ignorant and bitter old man who just cannot let it rest. His ranting about how Ali's parkinson is a punishment from god is in very bad taste indeed, and you can tell how Frazier is laughing at Ali every time he sees an image of him shaking. Despite the illness, Ali is undoubtedly far more content with life than Frazier. Ali actually publically apologised to Joe Frazier by taking an ad out in a newspaper, but Frazier rejected it.

J · Post by J » 28 Jul 2004, 11:30

in a nutshell that about summarises chapter 12 or whatever it was yeah!
Tho I think that it really wrankled frazier also that he helped ali out, even though they were "mortal enemies" as such and Ali repaid him by the aforesaid insults.

But you are right Joe is somewhat consumed by his own bitterness or certainly comes accross that way on those pages.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Jul 2004, 11:33

Yeah, that was something I didn't know, that Frazier basically lobbied to get Ali his license back, then Ali just demeands him constantly.

Ali could have shown a little more sensitivity than that, which he did with some later opponents, I think it was Jimmy Young who he never insulted. Ali as I said probably saw it all as ballyhoo, but as the book says, Frazier just wasn't articulate enough.

There is that one funny line though, where Ali says to Frazier ...

"I am god."

Frazier replies...

"Well god, you're gonna get your ass whipped tonight."

I think that might have been their first fight, anyone enlighten me?

journeyman · Post by **journeyman** » 28 Jul 2004, 11:34

yup, fight of the century in 1971, tho ali always denied he'd ever said that.