Harry Greb: The Greatest Middleweight of All Time?

[HomicideHenry]

Over the course of his career, Greb defeated the following:

Middleweights:

Maxie Rosenbloom
Mickey Walker
Jimmy Delaney
Johnny Wilson
Jimmy Slattery
Tiger Flowers
Bryan Downey
Kid Norfolk
Mike McTigue
Al McCoy
Mike O'Dowd
George Chip
Jack Blackburn

Light Heavyweights:

Tommy Loughran
Bob Moha
Tommy Gibbons
Battling Levinsky
Billy Miske
Gene Tunney

Heavyweights:

Gunboat Smith
Bob Roper
Bartley Madden
Joe Cox
Jack Renault
Bill Brennan
Willie Meehan


That is one hell of a record to stand up to, considering Greb was still in his prime when he lost to Flowers in a controversial decision in what was to be his last fight in 1926, and he been raising hell among the elite since 1915. 11 years, and most of the men on that list he defeated more than once. Hell, still to this day, there are many who believed Greb was robbed more than once against Gene Tunney.

Compare his list over 11 years, to Sugar Ray Robinson's, and see where it leads:

(Ignoring Robinson's Welterweight past)

Middleweights:

Bobo Olson
Jake LaMotta
Holly Mims
Randy Turpin
Rocky Castellani
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Paul Pender
Fritzie Zivic


Light Heavyweights:

Joey Maxim (lost)

[Collins2000]

Only thing it leads me to believe is what we already know. Both were great fighters, amongst the absolute best of all time.

[I Feel Fine]

It really does not hurt Robinson either way, as he started out at Lightweight and spent the bulk of his career at Welterweight. It speaks to Robinson's greatness that he would be in the conversation. Monzon and Hagler should also be in the conversation, and had better title reigns than Greb and Robinson. Either way, sure, I think Greb should get the edge for the ranking of best Middleweight of all time. His resume is staggering, and he did much of it blind in one eye, which got worse over time. Who knows what his vision was when he lost the title to Flowers.
As for the P4P best, I usually go with Robinson, but I could just as easily go with Greb, or Armstrong.

[HomicideHenry]

P4P, Langford is the greatest imo, though I have always considered 'Homicide Hank' to be right up there as well, considering the 3 titles he held at the same time, and his 'draw' with Ceferino Garcia would have put him in line for a middleweight title claim as well.

Greb, however, could have gotten a title shot at Jack Dempsey, as he beat some of the more better contenders of the day at the weight, and really, with him beating Light Heavyweight title claimers in Moha and being robbed against Tunney, its arguable that there was no better fighter at the time from middleweight to light heavyweight than Harry Greb.

[dempseyfire]

Not only the greatest at 160, the greatest of all time in any weight class.

[I Feel Fine]

Langford is also in the argument P4P, and it is a shame that Langford and Greb never got shots at the Heavyweight title. Greb held wins over three of Dempsey's six title challengers.

[dempseyfire]

Langford is also in the argument P4P, and it is a shame that Langford and Greb never got shots at the Heavyweight title. Greb held wins over three of Dempsey's six title challengers.

Langford would be my #2, but even the great Boston Tar Baby doesn't have a record like Greb. No-one does . . it's that frikkin' amazing.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Compare his list over 11 years, to Sugar Ray Robinson's, and see where it leads:

(Ignoring Robinson's Welterweight past)

- Best not to ignore anything about a fighter since they all have weaknesses and strengths that manifest themselves throughout their careers.

Much ado over nutin'. Ibro ranks Greb, Robby, and Ketchel as the top middles. Robby gets to play top welt. P4p it goes Robby thanks to those welt and lightweight years, Greb, and Armstrong.

Oh, unless I'm mistaken about an unknown earlier fight that Greb won, Greb lost both fights to Flowers at the end of his career. Ironically, both he and Flowers died at the same age a year apart under the surgeon's knife to correct boxing injuries.

Robby a bit overranked at middle, he kept on losing the crown against fighters Monzon, Hagler, and Ketchel could've handled, but he gets the icon vote to push him over the top. Too bad D'amato queered his bout with Patterson. That was a winnable fight for Ray, a very young, relatively untested champ and would've made him god-like.

Would've fancied his chances against Floyd more than Greb's against Dempsey.

Another irony is how many great middles died fairly young:
#1 Greb, age 30
#3 Ketchel, 24
5. Carlos Monzon
7. Marcel Cerdan
8. Bob Fitzsimmons
12. Tiger Flowers
16. Dick Tiger
19. Kid McCoy- 67 when he died of his own hand, probably with a pistol after serving 7 yrs for killing his wife and robbing a bunch of people.

[I Feel Fine]

Langford is also in the argument P4P, and it is a shame that Langford and Greb never got shots at the Heavyweight title. Greb held wins over three of Dempsey's six title challengers.

Langford would be my #2, but even the great Boston Tar Baby doesn't have a record like Greb. No-one does . . it's that frikkin' amazing.

No arguments here.

Oh, unless I'm mistaken about an unknown earlier fight that Greb won, Greb lost both fights to Flowers at the end of his career.

As for Greb-Flowers, Greb did fight Flowers in 1924, prior to their title fights. Boxrec has it as a newspaper win for Greb.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Greb held wins over three of Dempsey's six title challengers.

- Slammin' Sammy beat 5 of Johnson's 9 challengers, knocking out all but Ketchel.

[HomicideHenry]

Greb's last bout was with Flowers, though they had fought in the past. Most thought that Greb won the fight, but lost the decision. Greb said afterwards 'That was one fight I won, if I ever won any." Not too long afterwards he died following eye surgery, a rematch with Flowers was in the talks. Makes you wonder how well Greb would have faired had he had two good eyes.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Greatest Middleweight? Yes, he was. He knocked Monzon off the top of my list about a year ago.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Greb did fight Flowers in 1924, prior to their title fights. Boxrec has it as a newspaper win for Greb.

- Never seen it before. Gives hope for some footage to surface some day.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Greb's last bout was with Flowers, though they had fought in the past. Most thought that Greb won the fight, but lost the decision. Greb said afterwards 'That was one fight I won, if I ever won any." Not too long afterwards he died following eye surgery, a rematch with Flowers was in the talks. Makes you wonder how well Greb would have faired had he had two good eyes.

There isn't any wonder about it, Henry. Imagine if Roy Jones or James Toney fought their careers with one eye --- they'd be called the greatest. Greb had one eye for a long time, & I still label him the greatest.

[HomicideHenry]

The sad thing about Greb, imo, is that not a single shred of film exists of this mans fights.

[klompton]

Someone mentioned that Robinson started out at lightweight. Greb actually turned pro at 138 only 3.5 pounds more than Robinson so Robinsons low weight shouldnt be held against Greb when discussing them head to head.

[slakka]

Over the course of his career, Greb defeated the following:

Middleweights:

Maxie Rosenbloom
Mickey Walker
Jimmy Delaney
Johnny Wilson
Jimmy Slattery
Tiger Flowers
Bryan Downey
Kid Norfolk
Mike McTigue
Al McCoy
Mike O'Dowd
George Chip
Jack Blackburn
And the Bayonne Globetrotter Jeff Smith. Please don't leave him off this list. He was another superb fighter Harry dominated.

[jaclem2]

..of course greb was a great great great fighter..

it's a mistake, though, not to consider robinson's welter career. he beat lamoota four out of five when he was at that weight and check him out against some other middies while he was a welter.

personally, i think he was a this best against middles before the lamotta title fight, and that was his peak fight in that division

[harrygreb]

I wasnt bad was I?

[HomicideHenry]

..of course greb was a great great great fighter..

it's a mistake, though, not to consider robinson's welter career. he beat lamoota four out of five when he was at that weight and check him out against some other middies while he was a welter.

personally, i think he was a this best against middles before the lamotta title fight, and that was his peak fight in that division

The same to some extent can be said of LaMotta, as most of his bouts were at Light Heavyweight (though truth is, had he fought today he would have been a super middleweight).

[bjermaine]

The sad thing about Greb, imo, is that not a single shred of film exists of this mans fights.

this is a problem i have with calling him the best at 160. i'd like to actually watch the guy fight if i was saying he was the best ever. it's a shame there's no footage except for the few seconds of sparring with o'brien. greb's record is insane!

[Ambling Alp]

Many of Greb's biggest wins were when he was well over 160. (ie. He was 168 and Flowers was 161 when Greb won a Newspaper decision over him.)
Still impressive wins, but if you are rating him only as a middleweight, they shouldn't count.
Having said that, Greb still rates a little higher than Robinson.
Having said that, I still wouldn't rate Greb the #1 middleweight of all time; though it's arguable.

Monzon is often overlooked;he fought in little talked about era, and he was from Argentina. However, he never lost during his prime and beat some great competition as a middleweight. He deserves the nod. Hagler has to be considered at #2 as well.

Having said that, Greb deserves to be rated higher than Monzon if you are just rating who was the best fighter regardless of weight class.

You could make a decent argument for Greb (and Robinson and a few others) as the best fighter ever.

[klompton]

Greb was a natural middleweight the reason he often fought around 165 was simply so he didnt have to make the weight. That being said, HE WAS A NATURAL MIDDLEWEIGHT and as such thats why he is often ranked where he is ranked. He did 155 for ODowd and consistently made 158 even after the division limit had been raised to 160. Flowers as well fought most of his fights above 160. Lots of people today have tried to take away Jack Delaney's two KO wins over Flowers by saying Flowers was a middleweight and Delaney was a LHW. BUT, Delaney fought most of his career at middleweight and was actually outweighed by Flowers in their fights.