Hollyfield v Ali

[tonyevs]

I don`t know if a thread has been asked on this before.
But as long as people look at it sensibly I think it could be interesting.
I do not see Ali getting a look in.
Evander would have too much of everything, punch, movement, durability and more importantly he would be too clever to fall into any Ali traps or tricks.
Norton as an obvious example showed how for me Evander would make an easy fight of it.

[dan1030]

I wouldn't count Holy out, but "easy fight of it" is a bit of an over-statement, don't you think? Ali wasn't all that easy for Norton--although I'll grant you the first fight should have been a UD not split--and Norton was a bit bigger (and I think stronger, too) than Holyfield at his best heavyweight size.
I'd say that on the points that you raise: punch, movement, durability and cleverness, the only one Evander has a clear edge in is punch--although not as big of a punch at heavyweight as Norton had. Both guys where physically and mentally tough as hell, you gotta give Ali the edge in movement (and hand speed), and they both made very few mistakes when they where on their "A" game. My call would be a fairly easy--stratch that, not easy, but wide on points--decision win for the Ali of the 60s, but a much closer fight (like your Norton comparison) for the Ali of the 70s. In a fight where they're both a little past their primes it could be a bit ugly: Ali leaning on the back of Holyfield's neck whenever he's not getting headbutted

[Marciano Frazier]

I don`t know if a thread has been asked on this before.
But as long as people look at it sensibly I think it could be interesting.
I do not see Ali getting a look in.
Evander would have too much of everything, punch, movement, durability and more importantly he would be too clever to fall into any Ali traps or tricks.
Norton as an obvious example showed how for me Evander would make an easy fight of it.

"Evander would have too much of everything, punch, movement, durability and more importantly he would be too clever to fall into any Ali traps or tricks."
Holyfield wasn't a particularly powerful puncher at heavyweight. His movement was good, but not nearly as good as Ali's. His durability, again, was excellent, but Ali was clearly better in that department as well. Holyfield hit perhaps a notch or two harder than Ali, but he didn't hit even close to hard enough to knock Ali out.
Holyfield was clever, always a very ring-intelligent fight but for the occasions when he abandoned his plan to go to war, but yet again, Ali was every bit as much or more clever than Holyfield.

"Norton as an obvious example showed how for me Evander would make an easy fight of it."
Holyfield make an easy fight out of Ali? I have immense respect for Holyfield. A tougher man may never have fought than Evander. Holyfield was even tougher and more courageous than Ali himself.
But he wasn't a fighter on Ali's level. Ali was quicker, rangier, much harder to hit, took a better punch, had better long-term stamina, and if you look at it objectively, Holyfield has virtually no considerable advantages. When you look at Norton, at least Norton was considerably stronger and more powerful than Ali.
I think Holyfield was better than Norton, but Norton had more advantages on Ali than Holyfield would, and Ali was not in his prime when he fought Norton anyway.

I pick Ali over Holyfield in a tough, close but unanimous decision where Holyfield's swarming pressure and infighting would trouble Ali throughout the early and middle rounds the way Frazier always did, and the outcome would be in doubt until late in the match when Ali would take control, probably sweep the last few rounds against a valiant but waning Holyfield, and win a close but clear-cut and unanimous decision.

[Guest]

Prime Ali vs Prime Holyfield = Ali win, just.

Two great heavyweights that weren't as big as others, and went on for longer then they should have.

[Tantum]

Holyfield, UD or possible TKO.

[dempseyfire]

I don`t know if a thread has been asked on this before.
But as long as people look at it sensibly I think it could be interesting.
I do not see Ali getting a look in.
Evander would have too much of everything, punch, movement, durability and more importantly he would be too clever to fall into any Ali traps or tricks.
Norton as an obvious example showed how for me Evander would make an easy fight of it.

Evander would make it close but I don't see how he wins this. Holyfield didn't have the jab of Norton, which was how Norton basically nullified Ali's main weapon. He was also a harder puncher then Holy which forced Ali to give him respect.

Tough close fight but Ali's flurries ensure him a win by a pt or two.

[Slapsie Maxie]

this would be a fight I would HATE to see

Not because it would be a bad fight but because these are my two favourite heavies of all time and I would hate to see one of them lose

Both would come in with gameplans which is a trait they had in common. Both had huge ( perhaps too much ) courage and both would be in superb condition

My feeling is that Ali's smarts would just outweigh Holy's courage and he would win a close UD

Glad it is never going to happen and I got to see these two beat up on the other schmucks instead

[Professor X]

And they're both ultra-confident, Slapsie. Two southern boys- Ali (Louisville), Holyfield (Atlanta).

You know, if the fight got heated, Holyfield would eventually drop a huge bomb on Ali. 'Gotta set the record straight...Norton, who never won a belt in the ring, is a class below Holyfield...Tyson would annihilate Norton nine times out of ten.

Ali gets a lot of credit for rope-a-doping Foreman at a ripe 32 yrs old. Holyfield standing toe-to-toe with Tyson at 34 yrs old is just as impressive IMO. Durability isn't a problem for Holyfield, the most multi-faceted HV champion ever...and, good lord, Holyfield is as rangy as they come!

Holyfield would have something for Ali's fast hands and feet...a left hook to the body, like the ones that dropped Tyson and Ruiz? Maybe a right hand like the ones that dropped Douglas, Qawi and Rodriguez? I think Holyfield could drop Ali (like Cooper and Frazier did), but not stop him. Ali was just too patient and relaxed, preternaturally so.

Ali-115 Holyfield-113

But Holyfield wins the rematch, because he is preternaturally focused when it comes to that sort of thing.

Ali wins the rubber-match, and Holyfield, already looking ahead, goes on to fight Frazier, who took the belt(s) from Ali.

Holyfield vs Frazier:
Evander Holyfield KO 8 Joe Frazier

[tonyevs]

Evander Hollyfield could be argued to have fought a better group of boxers that Ali did.
Put it this way the best name that Ali beat, be it Liston, Frazier or Foreman, can you see any of them beating the Bowe that Evander beat?
Liston was a very worn fighter when Ali fought him ( and that’s if it wasn’t a tank job?).
Frazier would have been fodder for Evander. Tyson was a better version of the same.
And Foreman may just have given Evander a tough time due to his size, but the thing is Evander has shown size is not enough to beat him, Ali was never a big puncher so if Evander could stand up to Tyson when Evander also was past his best means Ali would never have a punchers chance and this leads me to the last part, Evander would have just too much for Ali, could Ali outbox him? never, out punch him? How?, what with?

[silkov]

Evander Hollyfield could be argued to have fought a better group of boxers that Ali did.
Put it this way the best name that Ali beat, be it Liston, Frazier or Foreman, can you see any of them beating the Bowe that Evander beat?
Liston was a very worn fighter when Ali fought him ( and that’s if it wasn’t a tank job?).
Frazier would have been fodder for Evander. Tyson was a better version of the same.
And Foreman may just have given Evander a tough time due to his size, but the thing is Evander has shown size is not enough to beat him, Ali was never a big puncher so if Evander could stand up to Tyson when Evander also was past his best means Ali would never have a punchers chance and this leads me to the last part, Evander would have just too much for Ali, could Ali outbox him? never, out punch him? How?, what with?

Oh come on! have you even watched Ali fighting!.... we are talking about Holifield who struggled against 5 feet 7 inch Quawi, and 40plus versions of Holmes and Foreman.... I love Holifield who was a great warrior but Ali was in a different class and his opposition especially in the 70s when he was actually past his best was also in a different league to Holifields... and Louis's for that matter!... 8)

[dempseyfire]

Evander Hollyfield could be argued to have fought a better group of boxers that Ali did.
Put it this way the best name that Ali beat, be it Liston, Frazier or Foreman, can you see any of them beating the Bowe that Evander beat?

Yes, I definetly can. Actually, you can add Ron Lyle, Jerry Quarry, and Oscar Bonavena to that list as well.

Frazier 'fodder' for Holyfield????? Are you crazy? I would glady BET THE HOUSE Joe Frazier gives Evander Holyfield an awful beating. Holy thinks Qawi was tough? Frazier was in a different zip code.

[silkov]

Evander Hollyfield could be argued to have fought a better group of boxers that Ali did.
Put it this way the best name that Ali beat, be it Liston, Frazier or Foreman, can you see any of them beating the Bowe that Evander beat?

Yes, I definetly can. Actually, you can add Ron Lyle, Jerry Quarry, and Oscar Bonavena to that list as well.

Frazier 'fodder' for Holyfield????? Are you crazy? I would glady BET THE HOUSE Joe Frazier gives Evander Holyfield an awful beating. Holy thinks Qawi was tough? Frazier was in a different zip code.

8)

[silkov]

I doubt Tony has even seen most of those guys that he is putting down fight!... as I said earlier, if Holifield struggled with Foreman and Holmes when both were in their 40s you can imagine the trouble he'd have had with both of them when they were in their primes!.... not to mention Lyle, Quarry, Norton, Frazier, Bonevena, and ofcourse Ali himself!!!.
I have to laugh when Tony says that Holifield fought better opposition than Ali!!!.... makes you wonder what tv channel he's tuned into!!!!... 8)

[tonyevs]

Alot can be said for previous fights against `lesser opponents`.
Ali was fantastic against our Enery wasn`t he, and really class when he fought Bugner and with that vastly experiened Spinks boy..
Almost all fighters have had less than good fights, and styles do make fights, I think Hollyfield would have had too much, and you still have not given a grown up and mature reason to convince me any different.

[silkov]

Alot can be said for previous fights against `lesser opponents`.
Ali was fantastic against our Enery wasn`t he, and really class when he fought Bugner and with that vastly experiened Spinks boy..
Almost all fighters have had less than good fights, and styles do make fights, I think Hollyfield would have had too much, and you still have not given a grown up and mature reason to convince me any different.

Oh and I suppose your comments are mature are they?... the more you say the more your lack of knowledge shines through..... I could argue all day with you but it's not really worth it.
Mind you it's interesting that you pick out the Cooper fight when Ali was still developing and the Spinks fight when he was washed up!.... that said, both Cooper and Spinks were good fighters anyway!.... have you seen them fight?....... Cooper was no bum he was fast and had a very good punch!.... so Ali was floored! so was Louis... against Schmeling, Braddock, Galento, Baer, Walcott, and Marciano.... and he didn't get up twice!... Evander has ben given a hard fight by nearly every Heavyweight he has fought, including a faded Bert Cooper!.... though you probably rate Smokin Bert above Smokin Joe!!!.... I could go on but my dinner is burning!.... I do hope that this is grown up enough for you sir! 8)

[TheRiverCityHippy]

ali would have stopped holyfield late.
ali beat much much bigger punchers than evander and lennox lewis showed in their first fight how holyfield can be outboxed, hell, lets face it, riddick bowe was the better fighter in their series, its just the guts holyfield showed against a far bigger man stole the show.
holyfield, as gutsy as he was / is, and as good as a fighter as he is, is not even the best fighter of his generation, that honour goes to lennox lewis.
it wouldnt even have to be a prime ali imo.
the not so prime ali had a resume` other fighters can only dream of.

[Professor X]

Well, Silkov, if you insist on bringing up a still developing Holyfield vs Qawi, it's only fair that someone else bring up still developing Clay vs Cooper (but you guys NEVER mention the fact that Holyfield KO'd Qawi with ease in the rematch).

And Holyfield wasn't any less older and ringworn when he fought Lewis (and Ruiz, for that matter) than Ali was when he fought Spinks.

Man, Holyfield's resume is top-notch...just unbelievable. He's fought more heavyweight champions than anybody in history, a diverse group of champions--Thomas, Dokes, Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Moorer, Tyson, Lewis, Ruiz, Rahman, Byrd-- a whole boat-load of 'em. That's twelve by my count...and I probably forgot somebody.

...off to work...more later...

[silkov]

Well, Silkov, if you insist on bringing up a still developing Holyfield vs Qawi, it's only fair that someone else bring up still developing Clay vs Cooper (but you guys NEVER mention the fact that Holyfield KO'd Qawi with ease in the rematch).

And Holyfield wasn't any less older and ringworn when he fought Lewis (and Ruiz, for that matter) than Ali was when he fought Spinks.

Man, Holyfield's resume is top-notch...just unbelievable. He's fought more heavyweight champions than anybody in history, a diverse group of champions--Thomas, Dokes, Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Moorer, Tyson, Lewis, Ruiz, Rahman, Byrd-- a whole boat-load of 'em. That's twelve by my count...and I probably forgot somebody.

...off to work...more later...

Only reason Holifield has fought so many 'champs' is that there have been so many 'titles' in his era.... Ali's opposition is far and away superior to Holifields and really it's just plain silly to say otherwise!!!... 8)

[Professor X]

[quote="silkov"][quote="Professor X"]Well, Silkov, if you insist on bringing up a still developing Holyfield vs Qawi, it's only fair that someone else bring up still developing Clay vs Cooper (but you guys NEVER mention the fact that Holyfield KO'd Qawi with ease in the rematch).

And Holyfield wasn't any less older and ringworn when he fought Lewis (and Ruiz, for that matter) than Ali was when he fought Spinks.

Man, Holyfield's resume is top-notch...just unbelievable. He's fought more heavyweight champions than anybody in history, a diverse group of champions--Thomas, Dokes, Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Moorer, Tyson, Lewis, Ruiz, Rahman, Byrd-- a whole boat-load of 'em. That's twelve by my count...and I probably forgot somebody.

...off to work...more later...[/quote]


Only reason Holifield has fought so many 'champs' is that there have been so many 'titles' in his era.... Ali's opposition is far and away superior to Holifields and really it's just plain silly to say otherwise!!!... 8)[/quote]

I should have known that list would fly way over your head, sylkov. I can't even take you seriously now.

Frazier is NOT a class above Holyfield, and that is one all-time great that Holyfield would definitely KO.

Its hard to tell between prime this, not so prime that. But I've made a compromise, for starters, that even the most jaded heavyweight boxing fan from the '70's might, just might, understand (Im not holding my breath, though, for you baby boomers, deluded enough to think that Tyson couldn't ever KO Quarry or that even Jimmy Young was a better heavyweight than Riddick Bowe or that Bonavena had a better chin than Mercer, without doubt, etc etc):

'60 Olympics Clay vs '84 Olympics Holyfield

Holyfield wins that one. Mmm-hmm.

Developing...

[dempseyfire]

Well, Silkov, if you insist on bringing up a still developing Holyfield vs Qawi, it's only fair that someone else bring up still developing Clay vs Cooper (but you guys NEVER mention the fact that Holyfield KO'd Qawi with ease in the rematch).

And Holyfield wasn't any less older and ringworn when he fought Lewis (and Ruiz, for that matter) than Ali was when he fought Spinks.

Man, Holyfield's resume is top-notch...just unbelievable. He's fought more heavyweight champions than anybody in history, a diverse group of champions--Thomas, Dokes, Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Moorer, Tyson, Lewis, Ruiz, Rahman, Byrd-- a whole boat-load of 'em. That's twelve by my count...and I probably forgot somebody.

...off to work...more later...

Only reason Holifield has fought so many 'champs' is that there have been so many 'titles' in his era.... Ali's opposition is far and away superior to Holifields and really it's just plain silly to say otherwise!!!... 8)

I should have known that list would fly way over your head, sylkov. I can't even take you seriously now.

Frazier is NOT a class above Holyfield, and that is one all-time great that Holyfield would definitely KO.

Its hard to tell between prime this, not so prime that. But I've made a compromise, for starters, that even the most jaded heavyweight boxing fan from the '70's might, just might, understand (Im not holding my breath, though, for you baby boomers, deluded enough to think that Tyson couldn't ever KO Quarry or that even Jimmy Young was a better heavyweight than Riddick Bowe or that Bonavena had a better chin than Mercer, without doubt, etc etc):

'60 Olympics Clay vs '84 Olympics Holyfield

Holyfield wins that one. Mmm-hmm.

Developing...

60 Olympics vs 84 Olympics??? Who cares????

Silkov is right and you had no statement to the contrary- you really consider Ruiz, Thomas, Dokes etc. heavyweight champs???? (nevermind the Dokes Holy fought was a recovering coke fiend 10 years past his prime).
On what basis do you say Holyfield 'definetly' KOs Frazier??? That's one of the most mindless things I've ever heard. Holyfield doesn't have near Foreman's power, nor the power of Bonavena or Quarry yet Frazier could take their best but not Evanders??? And you talk about rose-tinted glasses??? I didn't say Evander was out of Frazier's league I said Dwight Qawi is and I'll stick by that assertion thank you.
Clay-Cooper? Fine, let's bring that up. Clay got knocked down, was hurt, but got up and later stops fight on cuts. Holyfield also got knocked down vs a crack pipe smoker named Bert Cooper. What's your point?? Qawi and Cooper are the opponents most similar to Frazier Evander ever fought and they both gave him hell. Of course you'll say Tyson but look at the film Joe Frazier and Tyson really had differeny styles-Tyson utlized less movement and threw less punches then Joe, and got weaker as the fight progressed while Frazier always increased his activity and got stronger as the fight progressed. Not a good comparison at all.

[Sweet Scientist]

The 1970's was the golden era for heavyweight boxing...4 universally recognised champs (Ali-Frazier-Foreman-Holmes) and a STRONG arguement can be easily made for ALL 4 of those guys being in the all time top ten list...and then came the 'second tier' of heavies...guys like Earnie Shavers, Jimmy Young, Ken Norton, Oscar Bonavena, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Mac Foster, Ron Lyle...

I don't mean to belittle Holyfields career acomplishments, but...the guys above are a higher level of competition that Evander faced...especially Ali-Frazier-Foreman & Holmes...ALL of whom would have beaten Holyfield...

Ali would have beaten Holyfield as late as 1975-76...in the mid '60's, it would have been a one sided domination...

Frazier would have knocked Holyfield into next Tuesday...

Foreman looked half decent against him over age 40!!! He would have looked alot better when he was 25...anybody George could hit was in trouble, Holyfield would be no different...

Holmes was one of the most technically disciplined, tight focused heavyweights ever...and he would have made Holyfield look bad...

Holyfields greatest asset was guts....and it would take soooo much more to beat the foursome just mentioned...

In the '70's...I'm sorry but Holyfield would be in that 'second tier'...and he just might have not been the best of that group...good luck against Norton & Lyle, good luck against Young's lightning hand speed....good luck against Quarry (who had every bit the guts that Evander had, God rest his soul)...good luck against Shavers...be ready to duck FAST!!!

[Professor X]

I agree that the 70's is arguably the golden era for heavyweights, Sweet Scientist. I disagree with everything else you said. I question whether '75-76 Ali (33 yrs old) could even beat the '96 Holyfield (34 yrs old) that beat Tyson twice in that year.

I care that Holyfield looked better than Clay did as an Olympic light-heavy, dempseyfire. Thats a damn good mythical matchup if I do say so myself (throw Olympic light-heavy Michael Spinks in there, while you're at it).

And I saw Holyfield come up in weight and trade power shots with Foreman (power is the last to go, and 247 lb Foreman had power to spare). Holyfield threw the harder shots (and he held the great one--'gotta love Foreman-- up). Take off your rose tinted, 70s style, aviator glasses, dempseyfire.

Holyfield could KO Frazier...and Lennox Lewis could, too (I'm not so sure about Tyson or Bowe's chances, though...maybe, just maybe, if Rooney was with Tyson and Futch was with Bowe).

[Professor X]

Actually, check that. I think Tyson would stand a damn good chance of KO'ing Frazier. A.) That fight wouldn't go the distance B.) Fraziers bobbing style looked primitive when compared to Tysons quick ducking and sliding C.) Tyson had more power punches in his arsenal nd was faster with them.

[dempseyfire]

I agree that the 70's is arguably the golden era for heavyweights, Sweet Scientist. I disagree with everything else you said. I question whether '75-76 Ali (33 yrs old) could even beat the '96 Holyfield (34 yrs old) that beat Tyson twice in that year.

I care that Holyfield looked better than Clay did as an Olympic light-heavy, dempseyfire. Thats a damn good mythical matchup if I do say so myself (throw Olympic light-heavy Michael Spinks in there, while you're at it).

And I saw Holyfield come up in weight and trade power shots with Foreman (power is the last to go, and 247 lb Foreman had power to spare). Holyfield threw the harder shots (and he held the great one--'gotta love Foreman-- up). Take off your rose tinted, 70s style, aviator glasses, dempseyfire.

Holyfield could KO Frazier...and Lennox Lewis could, too (I'm not so sure about Tyson or Bowe's chances, though...maybe, just maybe, if Rooney was with Tyson and Futch was with Bowe).

Of course Holyfield and Lewis COULD KO Frazier. This is heavyweight boxing. There's no doubt Joe Frazier COULD KO Holyfield and Lewis as well
Not sure why you're bringing up the Foreman fight, as the George that fought Holyfield was maybe 40-50% of the fighter he had been at 24 years old and he still gave Holyfield a close fight. Sure Foreman had power, but had almost no speed, and his work-rate was garbage compared to what he could fire in his prime. Please watch Foreman-Peralta or Foreman-Chuvalo and then any Foreman fight from his comeback-it's hard to see how Holyfield could've beaten a prime Foreman after seeing the vast differences.
From what I've seen. Holyfield in the 84 Olympics probably could've beaten the teenage Clay in the 60 Olympics. Fine. Comparing the amateurs which are only 3 rounds and require much different things from a fighter then a 15 round fight, doesn't make much sense to me.

You say Frazier's style looked 'primitive' compared to Tysons??? Can't you see Frazier bobbed and weaved and utilized movement MUCH more then Tyson did? Tyson mainly bobbed for defense but he left himself open when on the offensive, which is partly why a counterpuncher like Holyfield could nail him all night. I would say Frazier, who was constantly moving and was much harder to set-up, had a much better style then Tyson, who was much more of a flat-footed stalker. Watch Tyson-Berbick or Tyson-Tucker. After the 1st round, Tyson always became much more stationary then people who've seen mostly those well-put together highlight montages of Tyson seem to remember.

[tonyevs]

Frazier could not take Foreman’s power, Ali had to wait till Foreman burned his self out before he took a forward step.
Hollyfield stands in front of Foreman and Tyson.
Ali gets knocked down by Frazier and Cooper..did these carry more power than Foreman or Tyson?
Ali scrapes through with Doug Jones, scrapes through with Ken Norton and scrapes through with Leon Spinks..three stages of his career there.
How could he outbox Evander?