Top Ten post-war British Heavyweights

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 28 Jul 2004, 11:35

bennie wrote:1] Lewis
2] Bruno
3] Cooper
4] Farr
5] Woodcock
6] Erskine
7] Cockell
8] Bugner
9] Hide
10] Notice

PS: Danny Williams could be in the top five come Saturday.

You would put Bruno above Cooper.

I wouldnt.

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 28 Jul 2004, 11:36

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yeah, that was something I didn't know, that Frazier basically lobbied to get Ali his license back, then Ali just demeands him constantly.

Ali could have shown a little more sensitivity than that, which he did with some later opponents, I think it was Jimmy Young who he never insulted. Ali as I said probably saw it all as ballyhoo, but as the book says, Frazier just wasn't articulate enough.

There is that one funny line though, where Ali says to Frazier ...

"I am god."

Frazier replies...

"Well god, you're gonna get your ass whipped tonight."

I think that might have been their first fight, anyone enlighten me?

Yes, James, he said that in one of many celebratory press conferences after their first fight. He was absolutely loving it and quite right too.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Jul 2004, 11:36

Frazier has been known to 'reinvent' history, mind you so has Ali, he admitted years later than he never threw his gold medal in the Mississippi, but less dramatcially and iconically, simply lost it.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Jul 2004, 11:41

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yeah, that was something I didn't know, that Frazier basically lobbied to get Ali his license back, then Ali just demeands him constantly.

Ali could have shown a little more sensitivity than that, which he did with some later opponents, I think it was Jimmy Young who he never insulted. Ali as I said probably saw it all as ballyhoo, but as the book says, Frazier just wasn't articulate enough.

There is that one funny line though, where Ali says to Frazier ...

"I am god."

Frazier replies...

"Well god, you're gonna get your ass whipped tonight."

I think that might have been their first fight, anyone enlighten me?
Yes, James, he said that in one of many celebratory press conferences after their first fight. He was absolutely loving it and quite right too.

Frazier must have had balls like melons after that fight. I personally think that Frazier's reputation is largely built on that one victory, and two visceral losses to Ali. I don't think Frazier would have lived with Liston, and he would have struggled with Norton too. Frazier missed a lot of fighters out that Ali faced and beat.

Just an opinion.

journeyman · Post by **journeyman** » 28 Jul 2004, 11:47

the stories i heard were that frazier never had any problems with norton when they were sparring in eddie futch's gym. that's one of the reasons why norton was chosen for ali the first time around - a bad choice it turned out. of course, sparring stories don't give an accurate picture of how a fight would turn out, but frazier and norton have both said they were too close to get in the ring together.

could frazier have taken liston? now that's interesting. the monster who was frozen out by patterson and johannson could probably have kept smokin joe on the end of his jab, but i think between the 69/70 versions of those fighters, frazier was far ahead.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Jul 2004, 11:50

Oh yes, by that time, Liston was finished, however in his prime, I think he would have done to him what Foreman did, though over a long period. Ali busted Frazier up pretty good, and Liston's jab was a battering ram, he was a better boxer than Foreman technically, though not as outright aggressive. I don't think Frazier could have survived the mauling. Frazier was best against durable types who were light hitters.I think Ali's style suited him because he wasn't a big hitter.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 28 Jul 2004, 11:55

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Frazier must have had balls like melons after that fight. I personally think that Frazier's reputation is largely built on that one victory, and two visceral losses to Ali. I don't think Frazier would have lived with Liston, and he would have struggled with Norton too. Frazier missed a lot of fighters out that Ali faced and beat.

Just an opinion.

Norton wasn't too keen on PUNCHERS though, and with his crabby, clingy style Frazier would have plenty of chances to swing the honey-punch.

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 28 Jul 2004, 12:11

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yeah, that was something I didn't know, that Frazier basically lobbied to get Ali his license back, then Ali just demeands him constantly.

Ali could have shown a little more sensitivity than that, which he did with some later opponents, I think it was Jimmy Young who he never insulted. Ali as I said probably saw it all as ballyhoo, but as the book says, Frazier just wasn't articulate enough.

There is that one funny line though, where Ali says to Frazier ...

"I am god."

Frazier replies...

"Well god, you're gonna get your ass whipped tonight."

I think that might have been their first fight, anyone enlighten me?
Yes, James, he said that in one of many celebratory press conferences after their first fight. He was absolutely loving it and quite right too.

My own personal opinion is that Ali treated Frazier dreadfully, and this is one of the reasons why I'm not keen on Ali.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 29 Jul 2004, 05:33

DavidPayne wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Frazier must have had balls like melons after that fight. I personally think that Frazier's reputation is largely built on that one victory, and two visceral losses to Ali. I don't think Frazier would have lived with Liston, and he would have struggled with Norton too. Frazier missed a lot of fighters out that Ali faced and beat.

Just an opinion.
Norton wasn't too keen on PUNCHERS though, and with his crabby, clingy style Frazier would have plenty of chances to swing the honey-punch.

Frazier was a different kind of puncher to Foreman and Shavers though. He had to be up very close to be effective, whereas Shavers and Foreman could hurt you with a variety of shots including long ones. I'm not saying Norton would definetly have won, I would have just liked to have seen the fight. I think that Frazier's career lacked the level of competition required to rate him all that highly, and that his fights with Ali flatter him a little, because Ali's lack of power and defensive style suited Frazier, who was able to steam in through Ali's shots. Against Foreman, we saw how ineffective Frazier's style was against a power puncher, though whether anyone other than Foreman could have done that to him is open to debate.

We never saw Frazier against Shavers either, or Lyle for that matter. Bonavena had Frazier down twice in one round, I would have liked to have seen how Frazier would have handled two big hitters like Lyle and Shavers.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 29 Jul 2004, 05:43

James,

I can see your argument for undermining Fraziers standing, however in a direct match up with Norton, who was a very different operator to Foreman or Shavers I can see Frazier having plenty of chances to fight in closer and swign the equaliser. And whilst he may have been a different type of puncher to Foreman or Shavers, one or two whistling left-hooks would have dropped Norton and he was more mobile than George or Earnie ever were.

Remember Norton looked best against the 'light-hitting, defensive' Ali too.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 29 Jul 2004, 05:46

Yes, true, Norton was flattered by Ali, but lest we forget he also did very well against Holmes, when he was slightly past his own peak.

One aspect of Norton which is perhaps overlooked is his tremendous physical strength, he was an amazing natural specimen. Yes, his chin wasn't the best, that's a given, but I think his strength might have given Frazier problems on the inside.

Anyway, it's always open to debate this kind of thing, Frank Lotierzo is a great one for that over at the site you write for, he's a real mine of knowledge when it comes to that era, I might canvas his opinion see what his take on it is. He's a great bloke Frank, if you haven't already, drop him a line some time, very nice fella.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 29 Jul 2004, 05:48

Pound for pound strength? Frazier takes some beating and he had more heart, grit and stubborness than any other heavyweight I can think of.

I mean no matter how many times Foreman hit him the sucker kept getting up, I just dont' think Norton has anything to deter him.

J · Post by J » 29 Jul 2004, 05:50

its been stated that Norton was the best physical specimen of that era by quite a few of his peers and boxing historians.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 29 Jul 2004, 05:53

Like Frank Bruno you mean?

or

Michael Grant?

or Primo Carnera?

or Wladimir Klitschko?

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 29 Jul 2004, 05:57

jamesmcdonnell wrote: There is that one funny line though, where Ali says to Frazier ...

"I am god."

Frazier replies...

"Well god, you're gonna get your ass whipped tonight."

I think that might have been their first fight, anyone enlighten me?

According to Joe, Ali said it as they came together for the referee's instructions in their first fight - "Don't you know I'm God??!"

Good comeback by Joe, but not as good as the air stewardess:
Stewardess: "Put on your seatbelt Mr Ali."
Ali: "Superman don't need no seatbelt!"
Stewardess: "Superman don't need no plane."

Ali's final words to Foreman just before the bell rung in Zaire were:
"Now I gonna whup your Christian ass!"

Anyone seen the 1 hour documentary about the Ali/Frazier 1? I used to have a copy, it was called "The Fight".

Features the whole fight, no commentary, just the sound of the crowd. The build up is brilliant, as it follows Ali and Joe during the build up and press conferences.

There's a great scene of Ali, peddaling through the streets of New York, yelling out "Anyone seen Joe Frazier?! I'm lookin' for Joe Frazier!"

J · Post by J » 29 Jul 2004, 05:59

DavidPayne wrote:Like Frank Bruno you mean?

or

Michael Grant?

or Primo Carnera?

or Wladimir Klitschko?

Im just regurgitating what was said by others who faced / watched these fighters in their prime so one would imagine they have a better idea than you I.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 29 Jul 2004, 06:01

Norton was tougher and better than all of those guys dave, come on, you cannot compare Norton to Bruno, Norton was a much better all around fighter, much better skills. Carnera was a circus freak, Wlad, well, we know his shortcomings, Michael Grant is a guy who never really wanted to be a fighter, great physical specimen but not a natural fighter. Perhaps Wlad will turn out to be on a par with Ken, who knows where his career will go from here, but I doubt it.

Norton was a naturally tough guy who fought his way through the Marine Corp and became a fighter as a result.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 29 Jul 2004, 06:08

I was playing devils advocate. And I wasn't comparing Norton with those guys as the whole package, but the 'finest physical specimen' thing doesn't cut much ice with me to be honest. And I used the other names as examples of why it doesn't.

However, this would have been a great fight but I would back Joe every-time and if you need a tie-breaker to discern who would win in this 50-50 contest. Norton never won a heavyweight title bout.

Frazier did and he would have done had he ever faced Norton.

Nice debate though. See you on the next thread:-)

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 29 Jul 2004, 06:12

You dont beat Ali twice (we all know what happened in LA) and lose a wafer thin decision to Holmes if you arent a damn decent fighter....... they are arguably the 2 of the top 3 heavies of all time

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 29 Jul 2004, 06:15

I'm not questionning Norton's status or ability. I'm just making a case that I think Frazier beats Norton if they'd ever met.

Norton, despite never winning a title fight, is probably a top 15 heavyweight of all time and possibly higher in the post war/modern era.

I just think Frazier clocks him.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 29 Jul 2004, 06:21

yes it is highly probably that at some stage Frazier catches Norton.....
he was vunerable against a puncher

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 29 Jul 2004, 06:30

DavidPayne wrote:I was playing devils advocate. And I wasn't comparing Norton with those guys as the whole package, but the 'finest physical specimen' thing doesn't cut much ice with me to be honest. And I used the other names as examples of why it doesn't.

However, this would have been a great fight but I would back Joe every-time and if you need a tie-breaker to discern who would win in this 50-50 contest. Norton never won a heavyweight title bout.

Frazier did and he would have done had he ever faced Norton.

Nice debate though. See you on the next thread:-)

I know Dave, you always liked an argument/debate. Agreed, physical specimen doesn't count for diddly shit if you aren't a natural fighter.