How could Boxing be improved????

[Jalex]

The one part I hate about boxing is the scheduling.
how sometimes you take a fighter to a fight, just to find out the other guy did'nt show, or there is too many fights so they cut a few.
So I'm looking for ideas, What would make a perfect boxing show? and how could it be pulled off?

[JMac]

The one part I hate about boxing is the scheduling.
how sometimes you take a fighter to a fight, just to find out the other guy did'nt show, or there is too many fights so they cut a few.
So I'm looking for ideas, What would make a perfect boxing show? and how could it be pulled off?

A perfect amateur show is 10 bouts. You should have 8 minium and 12 max. That is for an evening show. If you have an afternoon show, you can have a bunch of bouts and people can leave when they get tired of watching boxing. When I have shows, I pre match all bouts and try to have some extra boxers in the weight classes of boxers already matched so if somebody falls out which always happens, you still have a bout. The coach of the extra boxers have to know up front that they are a fill in.
Coaches know where they get treated fairly and return to those places. If they come to a show and get jerked around, they usually don't come back. Treat people how you want to be treated. Simple philosophy.

[Roars Like Me]

The standard one belt per divsion and honest matchmaking, the usual really.

[alexpaterson]

Have atleast 6 home fighters if youve got 10 fights because the locals like to see other locals

[Dennis]

It is great when good amateurs are willing to box against others of their caliber. Don't worry about records and just worry about getting better by competing against the best. Zeddie Adams boxing Robert Easter and Donte Strayhorn. All that does is make all 3 better. Too many coaches and boxers only want easy bouts, which doesn't help anyone and the bouts aren't as exciting.

[dontejuan]

Cut down on fights so people don't have there kids out to 1am in morning.

Get younger judges that's more interested on true fights instead of the same politics of boxing. Meaning judges that will cheat for a favorite and don't care what anyone has to say about it.

[boxmel]

Get younger judges that's more interested on true fights instead of the same politics of boxing. Meaning judges that will cheat for a favorite and don't care what anyone has to say about it.

And what is your definition of "younger" and "older?" Are you saying that judges over a certain age will cheat and those younger won't? At my age of almost 69, and 22 years experience as a judge, I find your age discrimination laughable.

[dontejuan]

What I'm saying is the same old ways of doing things means fresh new younger blood.

No knock to you but sometimes when you have been doing something for so long you feel no one can question your decision even if it's the wrong one. So I meant what I said but it wasn't directed at anyone in particular.

The same as the election there was a time for change and we got it.

[boxmel]

What I'm saying is the same old ways of doing things means fresh new younger blood.

Considering that every one uses the exact same criteria, we will always be doing things the same old way - even new and younger officials are trained in the "same old way."

No knock to you but sometimes when you have been doing something for so long you feel no one can question your decision even if it's the wrong one.

Not sure what you mean by this. Who's to determine whether or not the decision was right or wrong? I can tell you that every judge feels that they are scoring correctly.

[terrencej]

boxmel, I can't agree with you. I approached a friend of mine after a bout he was judging and asked him why did he do that. The kid from the visiting gym easily won the bout. My friend and a couple of judges from the hometown gave the hometown kid an undeserving decision, so I called him on it. All he did was smile. It happens often.

[boxmel]

boxmel, I can't agree with you. I approached a friend of mine after a bout he was judging and asked him why did he do that.

Any good judge will not tell you how he or she scored.

The kid from the visiting gym easily won the bout.

In your opinion.

My friend and a couple of judges from the hometown gave the hometown kid an undeserving decision,

You saw the scorecards and knew how each judge scored?

so I called him on it. All he did was smile. It happens often.

I smile when I'm asked, too - and don't give any information.

[terrencej]

No, I didn't have to see the score cards, anyone that's been around boxing knows when a kid has been ripped-off, it was that obvious in what they had did. That's why I went up to my friend and told him that was wrong. He was, also, an affiliate of the home gym.

To think these things don't happen is being a little gullible.

[p4p2012]

It is great when good amateurs are willing to box against others of their caliber. Don't worry about records and just worry about getting better by competing against the best. Zeddie Adams boxing Robert Easter and Donte Strayhorn. All that does is make all 3 better. Too many coaches and boxers only want easy bouts, which doesn't help anyone and the bouts aren't as exciting.

I totally agree. I fought Robert at our past State U.S. Championships in the finals. The winner of our fight would be advancing to the Regional portion of the U.S. Championships. I beat him but it was a tough fight. I don't even know my boxing record. Lol. I really don't care. Just as long as I keep winning and continue fighting the best. When you fight the best boxers in the country, in your weight class, and if you beat them. That's how you will know if your the best and if not the best. One of the best boxers in the country.

[Jalex]

to continue about the judges for a second. Boxing is one of the few sports that there is no red flag to throw, no instant replay, we are at 100% at the mercy of the judges. which leaves room for erros. and it is obvious that some judges are better then others. so then how do we cut down on the number of bad judges? cause let's face it. if the fight is close, most of the time the home town kid wins, is that fair?

[mr. detroit]

and maybe part of some of these issues is that score cards are not readily available for reveiw. And why not? they are in the pros and the Olympic "open scoreing" system. This IS NOT the pros and i understand that, (beat you to it boxmel) but at least the judges that score CRAZY A** SCORES can get scrutenized and maybe even sanctioned for there lack of effective judgeing like they do in the pros. At least it will expose some, if not many. I was at a show once were one of the judges fell asleep during a bout! And the fight was still scored! And none of the other judges batted an eye at it! Bottom line, it DOES NOT, ( OR SHOULD NOT) take a freeken rocket scientist to score ameteur boxing! Grow up people!
(edit: i know there are no "score cards" on the olympic level, im not a dummy, that is a seriouse issue in itself. However, you DO get to see a score, regardless of how insane it is.)

[boxmel]

can get scrutenized and maybe even sanctioned for there lack of effective judgeing like they do in the pros.

Who would you suggest take on this task at the local and regional levels? I can guarantee that there are some COOs who haven't a clue.

(edit: i know there are no "score cards" on the olympic level,

Actually, there are. They are called "After Bout Reports" and show how many times each judge pushed the buttons and how they scored. Very accurate "score card."

[mr. detroit]

Then did any of those olympic judges catch any kind of flack ( or get sanctioned) for that insane debacle they called the 2008 olympics? if not, then my point is proven.
(edit:) and how do you explain a judge falling asleep during a bout? inaffective judgeing is ruining the sport. computer systems are ruining the sport. you dont need computers, whistles, bells and buttoms if you have QUALIFIED JUDGES JUDGEING!!!

[boxmel]

Then did any of those olympic judges catch any kind of flack ( or get sanctioned)

Yes.

(edit:) and how do you explain a judge falling asleep during a bout?

I don't. Just means whoever is in charge doesn't have any balls to remove that judge.

computer systems are ruining the sport. you dont need computers,

Unfortunately, the IOC will NOT allow manual scoring at the Olympics. What do you think would have happened had those same judges not used the computer?

[mr. detroit]

1)i was unaware of any judges get sanctions...2) your right, "sleeping judges" need to be handled locally, i agree... 3) iv NEVER liked the computer scoring system, im veary biased on that, self admitted. It needs to go, putting the judgeing "soley in the hands of people" makes "people" accountable for there decisions and i would much rather see a "person" come under fire then a cop-out computer system.

we are 2 people that only want to improve our sport, however it erks the s*** out of me to hear that judges are this or that. EVERYONE makes mistakes, i know, but i get the impression you stick up for judges becouse they are judges, the back bone of our sport, and should not be questioned. this is wrong. when it comes to bad decisions, the judges are to blame, and iv seen many, blatent judgeing mistakes. Both in my home state and else were as well. Sometimes i get the impression that you dont believe in a "bad decicion" and thats when i get defensive.

A possible solution? i believe can start with the coaches teaching effective "olympic STYLE boxing and scoring" to there fighters first and foremost, instead of a "pro style". case in point, Ted palac. GREAT "OLYMPIC style coach" from my area. However what that may possibly do is throw off a fighter if he wants a good transition to the pro game. BUT this is not the pro's i know, but if you want to be an effective pro you have to get ameteur experiance. Its kind of a double standard. So what are we to do? Keep the headgear if you will, hell, keep the jersies if you MUST, but we need a new scoreing system. Something suitable for BOTH sides.

[JMac]

1)i was unaware of any judges get sanctions...2) your right, "sleeping judges" need to be handled locally, i agree... 3) iv NEVER liked the computer scoring system, im veary biased on that, self admitted. It needs to go, putting the judgeing "soley in the hands of people" makes "people" accountable for there decisions and i would much rather see a "person" come under fire then a cop-out computer system.

we are 2 people that only want to improve our sport, however it erks the s*** out of me to hear that judges are this or that. EVERYONE makes mistakes, i know, but i get the impression you stick up for judges becouse they are judges, the back bone of our sport, and should not be questioned. this is wrong. when it comes to bad decisions, the judges are to blame, and iv seen many, blatent judgeing mistakes. Both in my home state and else were as well. Sometimes i get the impression that you dont believe in a "bad decicion" and thats when i get defensive.

A possible solution? i believe can start with the coaches teaching effective "olympic STYLE boxing and scoring" to there fighters first and foremost, instead of a "pro style". case in point, Ted palac. GREAT "OLYMPIC style coach" from my area. However what that may possibly do is throw off a fighter if he wants a good transition to the pro game. BUT this is not the pro's i know, but if you want to be an effective pro you have to get ameteur experiance. Its kind of a double standard. So what are we to do? Keep the headgear if you will, hell, keep the jersies if you MUST, but we need a new scoreing system. Something suitable for BOTH sides.

Mr Detroit, I agree with you on most of your points. I was at the '08 Olympics as a R/J. Yes there was some bad scoring. I'll be the first to admit. I wrote a report on here, boxrec, that is now several pages down. Yes the electronic scoring as it is right now, sucks and needs to go. As I said after the Olympics, the scoring system is killing amateur boxing.
Did judges get sanctioned, yes but not enough and maybe not the right ones. On the international level, it seems that there is always going to be corrupt officials even in the pros. I have always said a blind man can see who is cheating. Sometimes they get rid of one or two but not all and it is probably politics for why they don't get rid of all of them. The corupt judges can make the honest ones look bad based on the system they use to evaluate the judges. You'll have to read my report to understand why that happens.
On the US local level, it is getting harder and harder to find officials. They don't get paid except for maybe 5-20 dollars if they are lucky for gas money. Little league umpires make at least $50 a game and with people having less time to give up, people don't want to do it for free. Not enough boxers come back to the sport and become coaches or officials. Many times on the local level, you only have a few people who are willing to show up and often they take abuse from the coaches or crowd. Sometimes you might feel they deserve it but after awhile if a person is officiating and doing what they think is their best and they are getting abused, they quit. I am a coach also and it drives me crazy if I think one of my boxers did not get a fair decision. I'll say one last thing, every side of the ring is a different angle. What you may see on one side, the judge on the other side sees it different or may not see it at all because his vision is blocked by the ref or the other boxer. I have sat in the corner as a coach and thought my boxer lost or won because I am looking at the bout as a coach, when I go back and look at the film, I have seen bouts the other way. Also a good judge should be focusing closely on the space between both boxers. It helps them to see all of the punches. As a fan in the stands, you might turn your head for second to say something to your friend and a punch lands and you did not see it or people are blocking your view like they were in the film of Smith and Warren. So you might miss something. At the end of the day, it is hard to get volunteers to officiate. We all wish we could get more and we all wish they would all be great. Unfortnately, that is not the real world we live in.

[boxmel]

Thanks, Jim. Very well said and much better than I could have. However, computer scoring isn't going away. Did I not hear that they are getting rid of the "accepted" scoring and replacing it with the "raw/individual" scores, tossing out the highs and lows for both boxers?

i

know, but i get the impression you stick up for judges becouse they are judges, the back bone of our sport, and should not be questioned. this is wrong.

Your impression is wrong. I try to give an unbiased point of view about "judging." Yes, there are biased judges and untrained judges - I don't disagree with you on that. However, I think Jmac gave a good description of the "volunteer" status of amateur boxing officials. And, then again, look at all the "bad" decisions in pro boxing!

[mr. detroit]

The % of "bad judgeing" in the pros compared to the ameteurs isnt even comparable, believe me i know.

And maybe i havent read enough of your posts to see you say that there ARE biased and untrained judges so my impression WAS wrong and iv corrected that. I will say that the judgeing on the ameteur level in my state is fairly consistant from what iv seen in the last 5- or so years. Especially with guys like Ron cunningham and ansel stewart. i ENJOY watching these guys officiate becouse you know they are straight down the middle and your gonna see a good fight. I only wish there could be more like these guys. The pro side of officiating in Michigan though... .........and thats all ill say about that.

[boxmel]

Especially with guys like Ron cunningham

Yep - one of my favorite boxing people. And you are correct in your assessment.

[Slythex]

I'm a relatively new (3 years or so), relatively young (36ish) amateur official.
Here are a few of my thoughts, based on my limited experience:

a- I'd love to see some sort of feedback program for judges. While my COO is good at providing feedback and instruction, I'd personally be a bit more aggressive in my own development. I want to be the best judge I can be, but unfortunately there's really no easy way to really 'fine tune' the craft of judging. I do a lot of shows, and I'm usually on the right side of the decision but there's always room for improvement. I'm just not sure what to focus on to improve. That sounds stupid, but I'm being completely serious. There's no way of knowing, for example, if I'm counting stuff I shouldn't, or vice versa. Or if I'm missing body shots, or off on my calibration of 'force of the body' behind a punch. And sure, experience is great, but there's always the problem of reinforcing bad habits at the same time.

b- the method of evaluating judges with electronic scoring (and even with tracking paper scores) generates a few problems: firstly, judges become more focused on their evaluations and less so about actually 'scoring the fight.' You'd think that a judge with a good evaluation is doing a good job judging a fight, but they actually aren't necessarily the same thing. For example, a judge is conditioned to avoiding behavior that's potentially controversial, even if it's appropriate (e.g. Scoring a 'J' on the cards). A corollary of this is that it makes for lower scores. Why? Because the less punches you score, mathematically, the less likely of a chance to vary too greatly from the average. Which is less controversial and better for a 'judge evaluation.'

c- While I'm sure with anything there's a degree of corruption and unfair judging, but honestly, I haven't seen much of it. I suspect it's a lot more rare than it's perceived to be. There's a good camaraderie amongst our officials, and I've never heard of, or seen, any blatant home town decisions since I've been doing this. And like Mel said, if someone asks us about the score afterward, what can we possibly say? The stock answer is to smile, or say 'well, it was really close' or something else equally noncommittal. Even, I might add, when we scored it in favor of the upset coach!

d- I've seen a number of upset coaches complaining about a decision, but usually the decision isn't really controversial (i.e. a 5-0 decision) But, unless it's a blatantly obvious one sided fight, it seems like coaches are usually going to be upset when decisions don't go their way. I'm guessing that because a coach is watching his guy, he's not really looking at the big picture. So it will always seem like his guy scored the most points. I recently travelled to another LBC with a few of our kids to ensure that there was at least an appearance of fairness amongst the judging. But in all 3 or 4 fights, I had the kid from my LBC losing. Not necessarily in a close decision, either. Still, the coaches were mightily pissed off and felt they got 'robbed.' I feel bad, because I know the kids and I know the coaches, but the fact is, they fairly and honestly lost. I'm not saying there aren't some bad decisions, but I don't think they happen as often as they are portrayed.

e- As was mentioned, I'm a volunteer like the rest of the officials. I try to work every show that I can, but sometimes a break is probably a good thing. You can get a bit burned out, or in a rut, or whatever. Sometimes though, because there aren't enough officials for a particular show, instead of taking the night off, you work through it because you don't want to hurt the kids or the clubs putting on the show. So it's true that there are times that an official might not have their 'A game' on a particular night. Hopefully, it's not often, but no matter what, it's bound to happen once in a while.

So yeah, I'm the new guy who hasn't been around long enough to see it all, but here's my thoughts based on what I have seen.

[Zelley]

Get younger judges that's more interested on true fights instead of the same politics of boxing. Meaning judges that will cheat for a favorite and don't care what anyone has to say about it.

And what is your definition of "younger" and "older?" Are you saying that judges over a certain age will cheat and those younger won't? At my age of almost 69, and 22 years experience as a judge, I find your age discrimination laughable.

Excellent comment!