All-Time Best Non-Champions

[Robinson]

Chuvalo vs Bonavena does exist on film. And it is a good
gruelling fight. Worth a look in.

Chuvalo is my favourite of the 3. He was the more consistent
and the most entertaining. That left hook...wherever he landed
it, it looked like it hurt. As limited as he was, he was always
entertaining.

[Flump]

Chuvalo vs Bonavena does exist on film. And it is a good
gruelling fight. Worth a look in.

Chuvalo is my favourite of the 3. He was the more consistent
and the most entertaining. That left hook...wherever he landed
it, it looked like it hurt. As limited as he was, he was always
entertaining.

Great news, thanks mate, i'll try and find it.

I do like all three, i'm always amazed at how a guy with such poor balance and technique as Bonavena went as far as he did, though his strength and durability had everything to do with it I guess. I remember seeing his fight with Mildenberger, he spent long stretches getting outboxed but seemed to knock Mildenberger down every other round which won him the fight.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

As far as more modern day HW's are concerned, I always hear from people that Jerry Quarry was the best of the 1970's to never have been world champ. I dont quite agree with this. In the 1960's and 1970's George Chuvalo and Oscar Bonavena had strong arguments to this claim, imo. Bonavena was right up there, and more deserving than Quarry. But thats just me.

- Quarry actually beat more of the era contenders than Frazier or Ali did, and he beat several before Ali got them.

Frazier was the only guy to beat him cleanly until Norton got him in 75 past his best. The rds I see of Machen favor Quarry hands down, and that seems to be a theme of his career, that he was quite often not rewarded for his very relaxed countering boxing style that sees him controlling pace and distance and often with the other guy knocked on his duff.

He won both Patterson fights with clean boxing but was only credited with 1-0-1 close scores and beat Ellis most all the rds I've seen of that fight. Both Ali fights stopped on cuts that seemed like premature stoppages that he went crazy over. The Chuvalo KO was a very odd situation where he cuts the count too close in a very odd knockdown off the top of his head in a fight that seemed to be just starting to get warm. He went bonkers over that.

Even if we accept those losses outright, Tony Alongi twice, Machen, London twice, Patterson twice (He fought the best versions of Patterson IMO), Thad Spenser, Ellis, Buster Mathis, Frazier twice, Chuvalo, Mac Foster, Ali twice, Jack Bodell, Randy Neuman, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Ken Norton and Lorenzo Zanon.

That's 22 fights against Golden era era champs/challengers/contenders with a 11-8-3 record to show. The only guy he seems to miss is Bonavena, and what a fight that would've been. That's a career right there with 4 of those losses against two top ten all time heavies.

The Frazier fights are the most action packed, heavy bouts in history that I've ever seen and the 69 fight was FOY.

If I had any criticism of Quarry, it might be that he could've fought with a bit more urgency and pressure after getting his guy hurt that might've more favorably influenced the close losses and draws against Machen, Patterson, and Ellis. It was that relaxed style of his that sees him getting up late against Chuvalo.

[dr_devious]

Jem Driscoll

Very good choice. Other great Brits never to win a world title were Owen Moran, Len Harvey and the already mentioned Jock McAvoy

[Flump]

As far as more modern day HW's are concerned, I always hear from people that Jerry Quarry was the best of the 1970's to never have been world champ. I dont quite agree with this. In the 1960's and 1970's George Chuvalo and Oscar Bonavena had strong arguments to this claim, imo. Bonavena was right up there, and more deserving than Quarry. But thats just me.

- Quarry actually beat more of the era contenders than Frazier or Ali did, and he beat several before Ali got them.

Frazier was the only guy to beat him cleanly until Norton got him in 75 past his best. The rds I see of Machen favor Quarry hands down, and that seems to be a theme of his career, that he was quite often not rewarded for his very relaxed countering boxing style that sees him controlling pace and distance and often with the other guy knocked on his duff.

He won both Patterson fights with clean boxing but was only credited with 1-0-1 close scores and beat Ellis most all the rds I've seen of that fight. Both Ali fights stopped on cuts that seemed like premature stoppages that he went crazy over. The Chuvalo KO was a very odd situation where he cuts the count too close in a very odd knockdown off the top of his head in a fight that seemed to be just starting to get warm. He went bonkers over that.

Even if we accept those losses outright, Tony Alongi twice, Machen, London twice, Patterson twice (He fought the best versions of Patterson IMO), Thad Spenser, Ellis, Buster Mathis, Frazier twice, Chuvalo, Mac Foster, Ali twice, Jack Bodell, Randy Neuman, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Ken Norton and Lorenzo Zanon.

That's 22 fights against Golden era era champs/challengers/contenders with a 11-8-3 record to show. The only guy he seems to miss is Bonavena, and what a fight that would've been. That's a career right there with 4 of those losses against two top ten all time heavies.

The Frazier fights are the most action packed, heavy bouts in history that I've ever seen and the 69 fight was FOY.

If I had any criticism of Quarry, it might be that he could've fought with a bit more urgency and pressure after getting his guy hurt that might've more favorably influenced the close losses and draws against Machen, Patterson, and Ellis. It was that relaxed style of his that sees him getting up late against Chuvalo.

I think Quarry himself accepted he lost the Ellis fight, he just fought the wrong fight. And Ali II was stopped because Quarry was taking a battering, not on cuts. You would have to have been a sadist to want Quarry to carry on in that fight, and the Frazier rematch, both painful beatings that sadly caught up with him.

The Chuvalo one was strange, can only think that the punch did a lot more to him than he realised, as shots in that area of the head of course can.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Ali II was stopped because Quarry was taking a battering, not on cuts. You would have to have been a sadist to want Quarry to carry on in that fight, and the Frazier rematch, both painful beatings that sadly caught up with him.

- Apologize for overlapping two fights that I see stopped prematurely.

The British broadcast was very unprofessional, dismissing Quarry from the git go as a no hoper when he's in the middle of landing some good cracks across Ali's jaw and blasting his body.

Half of Ali's flicking jabs were at least partially slipped or taken on the top of the head. The stoppage comes seconds after the start of the 7th, when the round before Ali was allowed to box Quarry with a foot of tape slashing at his face in a blatant attempt by the ref to induce a cut to justify a Quarry stoppage.

That was the best year Ali ever had, so taking down Ali may have been a bridge too far, but Quarry should've at least been allowed the luxury of a KD to go out on.

This was Jerry's 3rd fight in 9 weeks, so he may have been overworked and trained coming into the fight. Jerry and Joe took more punishment the first few rounds of their fights than the whole Ali/Quarry series combined. As I mentioned, Frazier the only guy to really stop him whereas Ali too often got "favorable" ref stoppages through his career.

Quarry handled much fresher versions of Lyle and Shavers after this fight than Ali did, yet never got another title shot after his FOY with Frazier in 69. I happen to think he deserved better treatment by the refs, commentators, and boxing hierarchy than he got.

[Robinson]

As far as more modern day HW's are concerned, I always hear from people that Jerry Quarry was the best of the 1970's to never have been world champ. I dont quite agree with this. In the 1960's and 1970's George Chuvalo and Oscar Bonavena had strong arguments to this claim, imo. Bonavena was right up there, and more deserving than Quarry. But thats just me.

- Quarry actually beat more of the era contenders than Frazier or Ali did, and he beat several before Ali got them.

Frazier was the only guy to beat him cleanly until Norton got him in 75 past his best. The rds I see of Machen favor Quarry hands down, and that seems to be a theme of his career, that he was quite often not rewarded for his very relaxed countering boxing style that sees him controlling pace and distance and often with the other guy knocked on his duff.

He won both Patterson fights with clean boxing but was only credited with 1-0-1 close scores and beat Ellis most all the rds I've seen of that fight. Both Ali fights stopped on cuts that seemed like premature stoppages that he went crazy over. The Chuvalo KO was a very odd situation where he cuts the count too close in a very odd knockdown off the top of his head in a fight that seemed to be just starting to get warm. He went bonkers over that.

Even if we accept those losses outright, Tony Alongi twice, Machen, London twice, Patterson twice (He fought the best versions of Patterson IMO), Thad Spenser, Ellis, Buster Mathis, Frazier twice, Chuvalo, Mac Foster, Ali twice, Jack Bodell, Randy Neuman, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Ken Norton and Lorenzo Zanon.

That's 22 fights against Golden era era champs/challengers/contenders with a 11-8-3 record to show. The only guy he seems to miss is Bonavena, and what a fight that would've been. That's a career right there with 4 of those losses against two top ten all time heavies.

The Frazier fights are the most action packed, heavy bouts in history that I've ever seen and the 69 fight was FOY.

If I had any criticism of Quarry, it might be that he could've fought with a bit more urgency and pressure after getting his guy hurt that might've more favorably influenced the close losses and draws against Machen, Patterson, and Ellis. It was that relaxed style of his that sees him getting up late against Chuvalo.

I have the full Ellis-Quarry fight and while its entertaining, Ellis won that fight.
I feel that re- Quarry-Patterson fights I feel Patterson just won one and the
other was a good draw. I have watched these two fights often

[HomicideHenry]

As far as more modern day HW's are concerned, I always hear from people that Jerry Quarry was the best of the 1970's to never have been world champ. I dont quite agree with this. In the 1960's and 1970's George Chuvalo and Oscar Bonavena had strong arguments to this claim, imo. Bonavena was right up there, and more deserving than Quarry. But thats just me.

Bonavena and Chuvalo didn't have the wins on their record that Quarry did, though Chuvalo did beat Quarry I know. IMHO they rate lower than Quarry, but I like all three, I'd like to see Bonavena-Chuvalo but I've never heard of the film of that fight being in circulation, does one exist?

Watching the Ali-Bonavena fight, up until that knockout, I honestly think Bonavena had it in the bag.

[Robinson]

I have to rewatch the Ali-BVonavena fight. I have a good
copy of it. When I watched it...maybe 10 yrs ago I recall
thinking that Bonavena for all of his squareness and awkwardness
was giving Ali a game fight,. But I felt Ali was ahead.

[My2Sense]

As far as more modern day HW's are concerned, I always hear from people that Jerry Quarry was the best of the 1970's to never have been world champ. I dont quite agree with this. In the 1960's and 1970's George Chuvalo and Oscar Bonavena had strong arguments to this claim, imo. Bonavena was right up there, and more deserving than Quarry.

I agree, I think Quarry gets slightly overrated in some respects.

[Collins2000]

Watching the Ali-Bonavena fight, up until that knockout, I honestly think Bonavena had it in the bag.

You trying to steal DaveV's reputation?

[Robinson]

Chuvalo is the better of the 3 I think.
He did after all beat Quarry. And gave
Bonavena a pretty close fight.

All 3 were inconsistent which is why they
were not champions.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Chuvalo is the better of the 3 I think.
He did after all beat Quarry. And gave
Bonavena a pretty close fight.

All 3 were inconsistent which is why they
were not champions.

- Frazier was extremely consistent.

Ali was just about the most inconsistent champ in history, except in "official" results. Never a single controversy went against him for balance. Guy was a magician, not a fighter.

Quarry competed against the best comp and has the best record of era contenders. He was better overall than Ellis, and as far as beating fighters, well, Leon beat Ali and sure could've fought Norton instead of rematching Ali which would greatly upset Ali bean counters.

[dempseyfire]

As far as more modern day HW's are concerned, I always hear from people that Jerry Quarry was the best of the 1970's to never have been world champ. I dont quite agree with this. In the 1960's and 1970's George Chuvalo and Oscar Bonavena had strong arguments to this claim, imo. Bonavena was right up there, and more deserving than Quarry. But thats just me.

- Quarry actually beat more of the era contenders than Frazier or Ali did




.

What an absurd statement. No, he did not.

What strikes me with you is that you will not only have complete wacko ideas but then you just flat out lie to make your ridiculous points. Even granberry didn't resort to lying like you do.

[dempseyfire]

Chuvalo is the better of the 3 I think.
He did after all beat Quarry. And gave
Bonavena a pretty close fight.

All 3 were inconsistent which is why they
were not champions.

Quarry by far has the more impressive resume than Bonavena or Chuvalo.

[Robinson]

Chuvalo is the better of the 3 I think.
He did after all beat Quarry. And gave
Bonavena a pretty close fight.

All 3 were inconsistent which is why they
were not champions.

- Frazier was extremely consistent.

Ali was just about the most inconsistent champ in history, except in "official" results. Never a single controversy went against him for balance. Guy was a magician, not a fighter.

Quarry competed against the best comp and has the best record of era contenders. He was better overall than Ellis, and as far as beating fighters, well, Leon beat Ali and sure could've fought Norton instead of rematching Ali which would greatly upset Ali bean counters.

Ali was consistent early on his career for the most part.

I prefer Chuvalo to Quarry. I feel Jerry was in and out as far as his performances
go. He can look damned good and other times like fodder.

[Robinson]

Chuvalo is the better of the 3 I think.
He did after all beat Quarry. And gave
Bonavena a pretty close fight.

All 3 were inconsistent which is why they
were not champions.

Quarry by far has the more impressive resume than Bonavena or Chuvalo.

I was not discussing resumes as such. I just think Chuvalo is the better
fighter and more entertaining. I think Chuvalo had a good chance at
beating Bonavena. Even though Oscar did do enought to beat him when
they actually fought.
The Quarry win was not a case of Quarry being so past it that it was unfair.
Last time I checked by that stage Chuvalo was well in his career and was
being relegated to gatekeeper. So both these guys were not 'prime'.

In my personal opionion all 3 make for good fights, but I just feel Chuvalo
was the better.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Ali was consistent early on his career for the most part.

I prefer Chuvalo to Quarry. I feel Jerry was in and out as far as his performances
go. He can look damned good and other times like fodder.

- No he wasn't. Jerry never looked as bad as Ali looked against Cooper and Jones. He didn't look much better than Banks or some other fighters in his development phase that he prevails over.

Also Ali didn't exactly look come up looking like roses against Chuvalo and Mildenberger, and the Terrell fight he allowed to become a dangerous, ugly brawl in the early going that he comes out of OK. Then you get into his comeback where sometimes he couldn't even be bothered to train or show up and fight.

My point with Quarry that I made previous and then mistakenly overstated, was that it was Quarry who was facing the top guys of the era more than anyone else from his first arrival as a fringe contender with his draws against Alongi in bouts I'd love to see to his loss to Norton, 66-75, 9 yrs. Then comes out of a 2 yr retirement out of shape and KOs a future Holmes title contender that Holmes gets a great deal of credit for as part of his "streak."

Jerry was competitive in each and every one of those bouts, but me thinks he suffered from the great white hope syndrome that Cooney, Coetzee, Morrison and the Klitschkos suffer from.

I was not a big Quarry fan, dismissing him as not as good as fickle fight fans are want, but after a harder look at his career in conjunction with others of his era thanks to boxrec, seeing more of his fights via utube, and listening more carefully to his guest host boxing analysis in big matches, he deserves much more respect.

The guy could fight, knew his business, and put together a pretty good career in the storied golden era. I don't mind if you prefer Chuvalo, and so on, but this forum is set up for discussion, and Quarry is at least as deserving a shout as any other era contender if not more.

[Counter-puncher]

My point with Quarry that I made previous and then mistakenly overstated, was that it was Quarry who was facing the top guys of the era more than anyone else from his first arrival as a fringe contender with his draws against Alongi in bouts I'd love to see to his loss to Norton, 66-75, 9 yrs. Then comes out of a 2 yr retirement out of shape and KOs a future Holmes title contender that Holmes gets a great deal of credit for as part of his "streak."

Jerry was competitive in each and every one of those bouts, but me thinks he suffered from the great white hope syndrome that Cooney, Coetzee, Morrison and the Klitschkos suffer from.

I was not a big Quarry fan, dismissing him as not as good as fickle fight fans are want, but after a harder look at his career in conjunction with others of his era thanks to boxrec, seeing more of his fights via utube, and listening more carefully to his guest host boxing analysis in big matches, he deserves much more respect.

The guy could fight, knew his business, and put together a pretty good career in the storied golden era. I don't mind if you prefer Chuvalo, and so on, but this forum is set up for discussion, and Quarry is at least as deserving a shout as any other era contender if not more.

i agree, good points. nice to see you acknowledging an overstatement, we all make them now and then

[dempseyfire]

Chuvalo is the better of the 3 I think.
He did after all beat Quarry. And gave
Bonavena a pretty close fight.

All 3 were inconsistent which is why they
were not champions.

Quarry by far has the more impressive resume than Bonavena or Chuvalo.

I was not discussing resumes as such. I just think Chuvalo is the better
fighter and more entertaining. I think Chuvalo had a good chance at
beating Bonavena. Even though Oscar did do enought to beat him when
they actually fought.
The Quarry win was not a case of Quarry being so past it that it was unfair.
Last time I checked by that stage Chuvalo was well in his career and was
being relegated to gatekeeper. So both these guys were not 'prime'.

In my personal opionion all 3 make for good fights, but I just feel Chuvalo
was the better.

?? I don't get thiis opinion. Quarry could box or slug. Chuvalo could come forward and slug but was not a polished boxer. Quarry beat the better fighters, had the better repetoire and was more multi-dimensional. Chuvalo basically lost every top fight he was ever in besides the Quarry fight which he was losing before the fluke knockout in which Quarry got up a quarter second too late.

[Robinson]

If your trying to knock some one out, how is that a fluke?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Quarry was said to have mistimed the count.