Ali v Liston II

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 29 Apr 2002, 11:08

Does anyone of you really believe Ali won that fight square and fair. I say no way and Ali himself probably had his doubts too...... his " get up and fight, you bum" seems to be indicating that Ali himself couldn't believe Liston went down. Also, it's interesting to know that, in an interview after the Foreman-Norton fight, when naming fighters he couldn't knock out, Ali included Liston.
On their first fight, everyone seems to think that fight was a walk in the park for Ali, while in fact it was even on the cards when Sonny retired in his corner.

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 29 Apr 2002, 11:09

Oops, wrong forum. Sorry guys..

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 29 Apr 2002, 13:28

Wrong forum but IMO correct analysis.

6 Pack · Post by **6 Pack** » 03 May 2002, 13:59

WHy is this the wrong forum? We are discussing boxers of the past right? ANyways Ali-Liston 2 was a joke. Liston went down from a punch that only glanced on his jaw. THen Liston rolled around for an extended count (thanks to Jersay Joe Walcott not being able to control Ali) and did a real bad acting job at that. I don't know why he laid down, but he did. It is true even ALi suspected this much.

What is even funnier is ALi trying to legitimize his victory by saying he had been working on this punch and called it the anchor punch. It was a punch so fast the TV cameras could not see it!!! Yeah sure buddy. It is only fitting he creditted an actor with making up the punch (because that is what we all saw, alot of acting). what is even funnier is some of these overzealous ALi followers beleive any thing he says and call him a genuis because he invented the achor punch!

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 03 May 2002, 14:58

6-pack..This topic was originally posted in the current scene forum and was correctly transfered. Anyway right on about Ali and his followers.

Alaturk777 · Post by **Alaturk777** » 01 Jun 2002, 21:12

The great sports commentator Art Rust Jr. mentioned one night, on his radio program, that Joe Louis had told him that Sonny Liston admitted to Joe that he threw both fights to Cassius Clay. As great a fighter as Muhammed Ali was, I will never believe that even on his best night, that he could beat Sonny Liston. Sonny was the most underrated Heavyweight Champion in boxing history, and Muhammed was very, very lucky that he never stepped into the ring with Liston when Sonny WANTED to win.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 02 Jun 2002, 22:37

[quote="Alaturk777"]The great sports commentator Art Rust Jr. mentioned one night, on his radio program, that Joe Louis had told him that Sonny Liston admitted to Joe that he threw both fights to Cassius Clay. As great a fighter as Muhammed Ali was, I will never believe that even on his best night, that he could beat Sonny Liston. Sonny was the most underrated Heavyweight Champion in boxing history, and Muhammed was very, very lucky that he never stepped into the ring with Liston when Sonny WANTED to win.[/quote]
YOU HIT THE NAIL SQUARE ON THE HEAD. I DON'T KNOW IF SONNY REALLY THREW THOSE FIGHTS BUT IT JUST NEVER MADE SENSE THAT CASSIUS CLAY COULD BEAT SOMEBODY LIKE SONNY LISTON. NO MATTER WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES WERE, I HAVE SAID IT BEFORE AND I WILL SAY IT AGAIN " CLAY DIDNT BEAT SONNY, SONNY BEAT SONNY" Dan Coli

Justin · Post by **Justin** » 09 Jun 2002, 14:24

I don't think Sonny threw the first fight... I think it was legit, he just quit because things weren't going his way anymore.

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 10 Jun 2002, 08:12

Why on earth would he quit..... contrary to popular belief the fight was even at the time and not an Ali walkover. Sonny couldn't have been hurt since Ali couldn't hurt a fly if he wanted to. Even if the fight wasn't going his way, Sonny'd always have a punchers chance. Henry Cooper damn near knocked Ali out in his previous fight.
The answer ofcourse is $$$$$$$$$

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 13 Jul 2002, 12:37

Alaturk is 100% correct: Liston is the most underrated heavyweight, and arguably the best, of all time. There's no question that both fights were rigged. If you check to see what the return bout clause was, and who promoted the 2nd fight, it's not hard to piece everything together. Also, it you happen to see film clips leading up to the rematch, just look at who's standing around in every shot with Sonny. Again, that will tell you quite a bit. Finally, at 8-1, the betting winnings from the first fight were astronomical. Ali was a very great fighter, and I think that it's fair to say that he and Sonny may well have been the two greatest heavyweights who ever lived, but they never really fought, and it's very hard to know who would have won. I'm certainly inclined to believe that, at that stage or their careers, it would have been Liston.

Justin · Post by **Justin** » 13 Jul 2002, 19:27

LOL, Liston the greatest heavyweight of all-time? Nobody really knows if he threw either, or both of the fights, so don't act like you know.

Saying Liston is great is one thing, saying he was the greatest is just ignorant to Louis, Ali, Holmes, Johnson, Dempsey, and all the other guys who are USUALLY said to be the greatest, and rightfully so.

WhiteShadow · Post by **WhiteShadow** » 13 Jul 2002, 20:12

I have a hard time believing that the 2nd fight was totally legit. The late great Don Dunphy said in an interview that when Liston was in prison the guards would hit him with billy clubs and couldn't knock him down. If that didn't do the trick then one punch from Ali certainly couldn't do it.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 13 Jul 2002, 21:22

Justin. I can act like I know because I do know. And so do many other people. That both fights were fixed has to be one of the least well-kept secrets in boxing history. Thousands of people made money betting on each of the Liston-Ali fights. And regarding whether Liston was the greatest heavyweight of all time: don't take my word for it, ask George Foreman. Let him tell you what Sonny would do to him on a regular basis in sparring. And Liston was an old, old man at that point. Even Joe Louis, who routinely said that he'd handle Ali with ease, felt that Liston was the best heavyweight he'd ever seen. [/i]

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 26 May 2003, 01:51

the actor who alllegedly taught Ali the "Anchor Punch" for the second Liston quadrille was none other than Stepin Fetchit, who was famous in movies in the thirties for playing a comic Uncle Tom character. He spent his last few decades performing in night clubs, and I knew him well in the latter part of these years. Ali had him in his entourage for a while when he was down on his luck. the only thing I can contribute to this discussion is that Step always referred to it as his "ankle punch" and when I asked him where HE learned it he said "from dodging bill collectors", though he would never demonstrate it, as, well, let's just say it "Probably" never really existed.

Terap...Is it true you have evidence that Ali was at the grassy knoll on that fateful day in November in Dallas?

DLH=Chicken · Post by **DLH=Chicken** » 01 Jun 2003, 17:00

clearly a dive, Liston didn't feel like atking another ass whipping.

pvdh62 · Post by **pvdh62** » 02 Jun 2003, 20:36

I can't believe the crap I am reading here. Liston was a pretty good fighter, but certainly not one of the best of all times. To be regarded as such you should at least have some legendary victories on your CV. The first [and only] time he fought a real class act he was completely outboxed, by yes, the young Cassius Clay. If, as mentioned in this topic, the fight was even on the scorecards by the time Liston quit, it's more of an evidence the fight was fixed THE OTHER WAY AROUND! Check the tape guys, Liston didn't win a round, or maybe just the one in which he pulled his old trick of putting some substance on his gloves[not on his shoulder]. He did it before, and he did it this time because he got frustrated and knew he was losing. He lost because he got outclassed, not because he didn't want to, as suggested. Just look back and see how hard he was trying to catch Clay in the first couple of rounds, and also look how bad his eyes were swollen in the last round. Beaten fair and square IMO. I agree the second fight is a different story, Liston clearly took a dive. I don't know why he did it, there was always something misterious about him, even about his death. But overall my opinion is that he couldn't have beaten Ali the second time anyway, and that he knew it. All in all, I do think Liston is a bit underrated by the general public, but he sure is OVERRATED big time by you guys

Jeffsboxing · Post by **Jeffsboxing** » 04 Jun 2003, 02:00

You should go to this link to read what happened in Ali-Liston 2. Rest, only Liston, Ali and God know the real truth.

http://www.izix.com/stan/index.php?chapter=5&column=2

pvdh62 · Post by **pvdh62** » 04 Jun 2003, 08:59

Interesting, but known story. It just proves my point of Liston not being an all time great. He was one of those guys that benefitted from their aura of being the baddest man on the plannet. [like Tyson].Once being exposed,like Liston in the first Ali/Clay fight, or scared for whatever reason, they collapce under the pressure. Handeling pressure is a quality you need as well to be a legend. IMO Liston just collapsed. Like Tyson[Holyfield II] he took the easy way out.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 04 Jun 2003, 11:57

coinciidence...was down in muy basement just last week digging into some old books and came across The Jocks, which I haven't seen im years.

to me, all of this just supports the wisdom of the poster who wrote only God,Liston and Ali know the truth....and I'm not so sure of Ali. the winning fighter doesn't have to be in on any of the skullduggery, and in fact usuallyh isn't.

Lickszz · Post by **Lickszz** » 06 Jun 2003, 02:55

I actually think the fight was legit. Waltcott screwed up the fight by not giving Liston a count. As you can see from the tape Liston doesn't quit, he is on his feet trying to defend himself when Walcott finally gets confirmation that Liston has not actually beaton the count. As for the punch yes, it was genuine. Liston walked onto a right hand he never saw, got put down, not sure how hurt he was, possibly only stunned but like I said, never received any sort of count.

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 06 Jun 2003, 10:51

Liston wanted to get counted out, but Walcott wouldn't pick up the count. Having to choose between spending the rest of his life in Lewiston, ME and getting up, Liston chose the last.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 08 Jun 2003, 01:53

as Step (Lincoln Perry was his real name....he claimed more often than not) is the only person on this thread I "claim" top have known , it begs the question as to why anyone would say the knew Stepin Fetchit when they didn't. I don't know how to post pictures on this thing, but I have a few with Step, one with me wearing a Shirley Temple wig and sitting on his lap, a parody of the movie roles he made in the thirties. I also have a recording of his introduction to my radio show, that I used as an intro for a while.

If by George the Third you mean one of Foreman's sons, no. Cromwell was a pain in the ass, and Hannibal is fictional character, introduced in the novel Red Dragon,and portrayed in three movies.

Joe Gans was always coughing in my face, so I stopped answering the door when he came over. The "terrible" in Terry mcGovern's nickname came from his table manners, and I didn't know Franklin as well as I did Eleanor. they were cousins, you know, which helps explain wht Elliot was the way he was.

As for more contemporary figures from the worlds of show business and jazz and boxing a a few from baseball (did the first non-sport show radio interview with Pete Rose), my publisher is getting on my for my second collection of stories , with photos, of contacts with these characters, so I'll be glad to send you an unproofed edition if the thing ever gets finished.

Thanks for your interest.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 09 Jun 2003, 01:24

ATTENTION TERAP!!!! A confession about claiming to know famous people. Here's a false one. On her book tour Hillary Clinton is claiming to know me....BUT I HAVE NEVER MET THE WOMAN!!! I even had to call Barbara Walters (whom I knew when she was a kid hanging around at her dad's Latin Quarter) to edit out all of the senator's references to me.

p.s. Hein Ten Hoff always spoke well of you.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 09 Jun 2003, 02:38

Why terap shows up from time to time to get a virtual ass whuppin from Jaclem is beyond me.

La dolce vita?

Ali v Liston II

Ali v Liston II

Re: Liston vs Ali (Clay) ll

Re: Liston vs Ali (Clay) ll