WHAT IF: ALY VS FRAZIER 1968

7rounds · Post by **7rounds** » 28 May 2004, 19:48

WHAT WOULD HAD HAPPEN IF ALY SHOULD NOT BE STRIPPED OF HIS TITLE AND DEFENDED IT, IN 1968 AGAINST JOE FRAZIER. THE OUTCOME: ALY BY DECISION OR 14 ROUND TKO.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 29 May 2004, 15:22

Ali would've done better in the 1st half of the fight winning 8 of the 1st 10 rds but people forget that while he was slightly faster before the layoff, he also wasn't as filled out or strong then also. Frazier drops Ali twice in the late rds to steal a decision.

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 30 May 2004, 22:47

Frazier was never any better than in the first fight with Ali, but Ali was clearly not at his best after the three-and-a-half-year layoff, and with only a couple of tuneups under his belt.

Ali in his prime (and without the ring rust he carried into the first Frazier fight) uses his size and speed to keep Frazier at the end of his punches, much like he did in Manila, where both were aging, but their skills had deteriorated in roughly equal measure.

Ali by wide decision or late TKO.

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 31 May 2004, 05:46

dempseyfire wrote:Ali would've done better in the 1st half of the fight winning 8 of the 1st 10 rds but people forget that while he was slightly faster before the layoff, he also wasn't as filled out or strong then also. Frazier drops Ali twice in the late rds to steal a decision.

Spot on.

Roll With The Punches · Post by **Roll With The Punches** » 31 May 2004, 06:15

Frazier UD

i dont see how the fight could look too different from the first aside from the lighter Ali having more difficulty handling Frazier

Ali would not come out dancing.....being on his toes would just make it easier for Frazier to walk through him.....he would instead need to be flatfooted and take as much advantage as possible of Fraziers slow start

revporl · Post by **revporl** » 19 Jul 2004, 11:20

Ali on points I reckon, a good fight, but not that close. Ali was rusty when he fought Frazier for the first time, he was too easy a target, that's why he lost. The Ali who fought beat Cleveland Williams was faster, more mobile and probably stronger than in the 70's. He would have run rings round the young Frazier either outpointing him by a wide margin or forcing a TKO on cuts/injuries in the later rounds like in the 3rd fight.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 19 Jul 2004, 16:38

revporl wrote:Ali on points I reckon, a good fight, but not that close. Ali was rusty when he fought Frazier for the first time, he was too easy a target, that's why he lost. The Ali who fought beat Cleveland Williams was faster, more mobile and probably stronger than in the 70's. He would have run rings round the young Frazier either outpointing him by a wide margin or forcing a TKO on cuts/injuries in the later rounds like in the 3rd fight.

Even Ali said he wasn't as strong before the layoff . . . .

While Ali did show slightly slower feet, I see nothing in the film that would suggest his hands were any slower. In fact, the fastest I ever saw Ali punch was against Foreman in 1974 . . . . And RollWTP is right, if you tried to dance around Frazier it made it easier for him to come on the inside and kill the body. And if you watch the longer Ali fights of the 60s (Patterson, Chuvalo) he could never dance the whole fight, and he always took some rounds off. Against Chuvalo he actually rope a doped for the 1st time in his career I believe. The lighter but weaker Ali of the 60s would get killed along the ropes by Frazier.

mrbassie · Post by **mrbassie** » 19 Jul 2004, 21:48

Ali was twice as fast before the ban, his reflexes were miles better too, I think he'd have won a snoozer handily

Iron Mike · Post by **Iron Mike** » 20 Jul 2004, 23:55

Don't know why everyone says Ali is stronger after his layoff. SO he gained a bit of fat, big deal.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 23 Jul 2004, 01:08

mrbassie wrote:Ali was twice as fast before the ban, his reflexes were miles better too, I think he'd have won a snoozer handily

Twice as fast before the layoff? Yet still 3 times slower than Floyd Patterson.

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 23 Jul 2004, 02:15

Ali was twice as fast against men who werent even a pimple on the ass of Joe Frazier. The closest thing Ali fought to Joe Frazier before his layoff was George Chuvalo a human heavybag with a decent left hook. Ali looked like crap in that fight and certainly wasnt able to dance for the full 15 rounds, imagine what Frazier would have done in his place. Ali could never dance for 15 rounds against relentless pressure like Frazier brought.

Frazier W UD 15

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 23 Jul 2004, 12:17

klompton wrote:Ali was twice as fast against men who werent even a pimple on the ass of Joe Frazier. The closest thing Ali fought to Joe Frazier before his layoff was George Chuvalo a human heavybag with a decent left hook. Ali looked like crap in that fight and certainly wasnt able to dance for the full 15 rounds, imagine what Frazier would have done in his place. Ali could never dance for 15 rounds against relentless pressure like Frazier brought.

Chuvalo more of a pre-layoff test than Liston, who had annihilated Patterson twice in the 18 months before he faced Ali (then Clay) for the first time? Um, OK...

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 23 Jul 2004, 18:20

I'd go with a much faster Ali to win, somehow.
Those blinding punches might have even ambushed Joe for a quick win ( GASP!! ) don't forget he nearly did Joe in their 2nd fight - round 2 I think, when the ref blundered and gave a hurt Frazier time to recover.

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 23 Jul 2004, 18:28

Eric the Viking wrote:
klompton wrote:Ali was twice as fast against men who werent even a pimple on the ass of Joe Frazier. The closest thing Ali fought to Joe Frazier before his layoff was George Chuvalo a human heavybag with a decent left hook. Ali looked like crap in that fight and certainly wasnt able to dance for the full 15 rounds, imagine what Frazier would have done in his place. Ali could never dance for 15 rounds against relentless pressure like Frazier brought.
Chuvalo more of a pre-layoff test than Liston, who had annihilated Patterson twice in the 18 months before he faced Ali (then Clay) for the first time? Um, OK...

Yeah and there was nothing fishy about the Liston fights at all... YEAH RIGHT!

RAPID · Post by **RAPID** » 26 Jul 2004, 18:32

I think it's pointless! Why not go back EVEN farther.
Klompton described it better than I can. It's not the gym of choice, however, how was ALI spending his time during this lay-off. Frazier wasn't getting any younger. Look at Durans career and the age he was when
he won some of his titles. The layoff could have helped him. Maybe
it gave him time to let his body heal and get stronger while everyone else was punishing theirs. Think about it!

mrbassie · Post by **mrbassie** » 26 Jul 2004, 19:31

Tantum wrote:
mrbassie wrote:Ali was twice as fast before the ban, his reflexes were miles better too, I think he'd have won a snoozer handily
Twice as fast before the layoff? Yet still 3 times slower than Floyd Patterson.

I'm talking about his feet being slower smartarse, what the fornicate are you talking about?

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 27 Jul 2004, 11:55

RAPID wrote:Frazier wasn't getting any younger.

Are you attempting to make the patently ludicrous claim that Frazier was past his prime when he met Ali in '71? 'Cause that's sure what it sounds like you're doing.

Frazier was just 23 (2 years younger than Ali) when Ali had his last fight prior to his 3-and-a-half-year layoff. While Ali was not fighting and occupying himself with politics, Islam and appealing his conviction, Frazier was blasting through the heavyweight contenders, destroying the likes of Chuvalo, Mathis, Bonavena, Ellis, Quarry and Foster. Frazier fought a whopping TWELVE times between Ali's last pre-layoff fight (Folley) and the time he first met Ali at the Garden; Ali had just two tune-ups in the 6 months leading up to their epic clash. And it's quite obvious from watching the pre-and-post-layoff fights that Ali never regained the same fleetness of foot and elusiveness he had in '67 - he compensated for it other ways, but mostly by eating more punches and having to show his never-say-quit courage.

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 27 Jul 2004, 13:56

Ali didnt have the same fleetness of foot against Bonavena, Quarry, and Frazier because he was facing three men, all of whom were better than any of his pre-exile competition with the possible exception of Liston who, as stated earlier didnt exactly give an honest account of himself against Ali. Sure Ali looked unstoppable against Mildenberger, a shot (literally) Cleveland Williams, and a Zora Folley ten years past his prime. When he had to face three young guns in a row he looked quite human. It wasnt a coincidence.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 27 Jul 2004, 15:01

Eric the Viking wrote:
RAPID wrote:Frazier wasn't getting any younger.
Are you attempting to make the patently ludicrous claim that Frazier was past his prime when he met Ali in '71? 'Cause that's sure what it sounds like you're doing.

Frazier was just 23 (2 years younger than Ali) when Ali had his last fight prior to his 3-and-a-half-year layoff. While Ali was not fighting and occupying himself with politics, Islam and appealing his conviction, Frazier was blasting through the heavyweight contenders, destroying the likes of Chuvalo, Mathis, Bonavena, Ellis, Quarry and Foster. Frazier fought a whopping TWELVE times between Ali's last pre-layoff fight (Folley) and the time he first met Ali at the Garden; Ali had just two tune-ups in the 6 months leading up to their epic clash. And it's quite obvious from watching the pre-and-post-layoff fights that Ali never regained the same fleetness of foot and elusiveness he had in '67 - he compensated for it other ways, but mostly by eating more punches and having to show his never-say-quit courage.

I would still say that Frazier was in his 'prime' for Ali 1 but when you think about it, Frazier employed a style that made young men grow old. Frazier had gone through fire and water battles with the very hard hitting and durable Bonavena, plus took a good amount of leather from the likes of Quarry and Mathis. Frazier was young but by his late 20s one could see he was slowing down. Ali certainly lost a small amount foot-speed when he came back, but he was also stronger and fresh. Ali didn't just spend those 3 years lying around like Tito Trinidad, he constantly did roadwork and trained and even sparred I know a few times. Frazier on the other hand, like you pointed out, had been keeping himself busy with 12 fights against top contenders. I think the drawbacks each fighter had about cancel each other out and Frazier, while not the greater fight, did prove he could whup Ali.

RAPID · Post by **RAPID** » 28 Jul 2004, 19:54

Eric the viking..... The only thing ludicrous is your perpective. Stop belly aching because Joe Frazier kicked his ass. Everyones tired of hearing about "Lay-offs" and "What If's". Get over it. It was a great fight.

"While Ali was not fighting and occupying himself with politics, Islam and appealing his conviction" PPPlease. Give me a break! Speaking of ludicrous!
"And it's quite obvious from watching the pre-and-post-layoff fights that Ali never regained the same fleetness of foot and elusiveness he had in '67 - he compensated for it other ways, but mostly by eating more punches and having to show his never-say-quit courage".
It's quite obvious to who. You missed some good fights over the years.

Roll With The Punches · Post by **Roll With The Punches** » 29 Jul 2004, 03:39

a pre-layoff Ali would be wise to come out and fight Frazier the same way he did in 71.....flat footed and making the most of Fraziers slow start

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 02 Aug 2004, 15:04

dempseyfire wrote:
Even Ali said he wasn't as strong before the layoff . . . .

Don't believe everything Ali said...much of it was 'spin-doctored' B.S.

His ability to move on his feet in the '60's was far and away his greatest asset...and he would have made a younger Frazier look like an amateur...the ONLY way Frazier would have had a chance is if Ali takes him too lightly and dosen't train properly, which never happened in the '60's...

Ali and his people who said he was somehow stronger or better after the 3 year layoff were nuts...there is no comparison between the Ali of 1965-67 to the slower, far more vulnerable Ali of the '70's. The hammering of the '70's is (at least partially) what left Ali in the condition he is in today...

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 02 Aug 2004, 21:40

RAPID wrote:I think it's pointless! Why not go back EVEN farther.
Klompton described it better than I can. It's not the gym of choice, however, how was ALI spending his time during this lay-off. Frazier wasn't getting any younger. Look at Durans career and the age he was when
he won some of his titles. The layoff could have helped him. Maybe
it gave him time to let his body heal and get stronger while everyone else was punishing theirs. Think about it!

'Layoff could have helped him'??? You're nuts.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 02 Aug 2004, 22:00

Sweet Scientist wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:
Even Ali said he wasn't as strong before the layoff . . . .

Don't believe everything Ali said...much of it was 'spin-doctored' B.S.

His ability to move on his feet in the '60's was far and away his greatest asset...and he would have made a younger Frazier look like an amateur...the ONLY way Frazier would have had a chance is if Ali takes him too lightly and dosen't train properly, which never happened in the '60's...

Ali and his people who said he was somehow stronger or better after the 3 year layoff were nuts...there is no comparison between the Ali of 1965-67 to the slower, far more vulnerable Ali of the '70's. The hammering of the '70's is (at least partially) what left Ali in the condition he is in today...

Look like an amateur???? Come on, watch any of Ali's fights through 1972 and while I conceded his footspeed was "slightly" slower one can see no real difference in the Ali then and the Ali of the 1960s. Even if you think Ali would've won in 68, you have to admit it'd be a close fight. Also remember Ali was fighting on the whole tougher opponents. Bonavena, Quarry, Ellis, and Norton were no Middleburger, gimp-backed Patterson, shot up Cleveland Williams, or old Zora Folley.
One problem is that when people think of Ali in the 1960s, they think of the highlight reels constantly shown in boxing specials and Ali documentaries, while the highlights of the 70s usually consists of Ali's shortcomings (Frazier 1, Norton 1, Ali letting himself get pounded on the ropes in Zaire). Watch the whole tapes of Ali against Chuvalo or Patterson and then the whole tapes of Ali-Quarry 1 and 11, or Ali-Ellis in the early 1970s. The differences are very meagre.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 03 Aug 2004, 10:10

The difference was enormous...maybe you just aren't looking!

WHAT IF: ALY VS FRAZIER 1968

WHAT IF: ALY VS FRAZIER 1968

RE

Re: RE

Re: RE

Whatever