Bert Sugar on Manny Pacquiao

[allworld80]

Bert Sugar just called Pacquiao one of the top 20 all time fighters on an ESPN radio show I was listening to. 6 titles in 6 different weight classes, 4 of them being lineal was part of his reasoning. Anybody agree with this? (I realize he is still active, but this would be lost on CS)

[I Feel Fine]

Bert Sugar is a clown.

Manny is top 50 P4P, but he's not top 20. Maybe he if beats a Mayweather, which I don't think will happen. He is not ahead of a Chavez or a Whitaker as of yet, in my opinion.
Pac's belt at 135 was a paper title, by the way, so that six titles stuff is nonsense. The WBC stripped Casamayor for no reason and gave his belt to Diaz to set up the Morales title fight. Manny is a five division champion, at most.
And, while I know many would disagree, I had Marquez beating him twice. I think its pretty well established that Morales and De La Hoya were old and weight drained. Manny is a great fighter, tonight's fight propels him even further, but we should not exaggerate.

[dempseyfire]

No, I definitely agree he is top 20 PFP all time. 4 linear titles across 4 different weight classes (115,126,130, and 140) . . .that is amazing.

So in the 2nd fight after one of his career performances (Pacquao 1) which occured w/in the year, Morales is suddenly shot and weight drained??
Marquez beat him in BOTH fights?

There is some big bias here.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Pac's belt at 135 was a paper title, by the way, so that six titles stuff is nonsense. The WBC stripped Casamayor for no reason and gave his belt to Diaz to set up the Morales title fight. .....we should not exaggerate.

- Sweet Mother of all that is Moe, Larry, and Curly, ya think after picking up a WBC paper title with a gifted split against Corrales and then getting another WBC gift after getting carved up like a Thanksgiving Turkey against Santa Cruz, the guy Diaz KOed prior, ya think the WBC is somehow obliged to keep refreshing Casa's faded title when he wouldn't fight anyone?

As to the ol' goat relying on paperless lineal titles, well, that's like paperless toilet tissue, best take care when shaking hands with these types.

It ain't baloney titles making Manny great. It's MANNY that makes Manny great. Guy steps it up, never avoids a scrap, and has utterly smashed up anyone that dares trade with him.

Even Mr. Money smart enough to avoid him.

[alexpaterson]

Hes definetly top 50 not sure about top 20 but if he keeps winning he can get into the top 20 if he beats PBF for me

[I Feel Fine]

There is some big bias here.

There sure is.
Morales, after a career full of wars, and considering how he looked against Raheem, was just as good as ever in the Pacquiao rematch? Really? Did you really think that? What about the third fight?
Morales was always a weight drainer. He had to stay at 130 for too long because of the Pacquiao fights. He was so weight drained in the third fight that he couldn't even put weight back on after the weigh in, and he was a total dead man in the ring; that win is particularly meaningless. All we know is that Morales at his best beat Pacquiao convincingly. Pacquiao did get better in the rematches, but we'll never know what happens when they meet each other at their peaks.
And, yeah, I thought Marquez beat Pacquiao twice. How does that make me biased? Am I the only one who thought that? Would you expect someone who is biased against Pacquiao to say that he is top 50 P4P? Explain to me how that works.
Broughton... you're an idiot. Casamayor won the third Corrales fight legitimately. Your chronology is wrong, Casamayor was stripped before the Santa Cruz fight. And your logic is wrong; David Diaz was never a linear champion, regardless of what Casamayor was doing. Diaz only got his belt because the WBC wanted to see him fight Morales. Anyone who says that Pacquiao is a Lightweight champion doesn't know boxing.
Mayweather is avoiding Pacquiao? Really? Well, I will bet anyone on this forum that, assuming Mayweather beats Marquez, that Mayweather and Pacquiao meet, either late this year or early next year.

[dempseyfire]

There is some big bias here.

All we know is that Morales at his best beat Pacquiao convincingly. .

You kill your argument right there. So Morales was at his best in the first Pacquao fight, goes and loses to Raheem in a style-clash stinker, and within 9 months AFTER the first fight in the rematch is now a shot fighter? No, Morales wasn't in his absolute peak for any of the Pacquao fights IMO, but he was pretty much the same guy in the rematch as in the first fight, it was Pacquao who had improved.

And since I had the rematch for Pacquao by just a point, I can see an argument for a pt win for Marquez. But I can't really see the argument for Marquez winning their first fight, he was really lucky to get a draw. The common argument is that Pacquao got dominated after the first two rounds which isn't true. He lost a big chunk of the middle rounds, but came back late to CLEARLY IMO deserve a victory on points.

[Robinson]

I never thought I would say this but I have to agree with
DF.

the Pacman is doing all the right things to be considered an
all time great.

He is always in shape, and honorable man, takes the fights,
entertains, and wins. His career is not over yet and lets
see if he can claim some other scalps.

As for where he stands on ATG P4P listings etc/// I dont
know. I dont know how to accurately make one of those
lists, so I steer clear of them.

I can however see no fault in people at this stage proclaiming
him as a ring legend.

[HomicideHenry]

After what I saw last night, I'd have to say Pacquia is up there with Chavez and Whitaker as the best fighters in my life time. If he happens to topple Mayweather, and become THE boss at 140-147, then he may be above them. Top 20 is still a reach, imo. But undoubtedly, he is one of the best fighters in my life time.

[I Feel Fine]

There is some big bias here.

All we know is that Morales at his best beat Pacquiao convincingly. .

You kill your argument right there. So Morales was at his best in the first Pacquao fight, goes and loses to Raheem in a style-clash stinker, and within 9 months AFTER the first fight in the rematch is now a shot fighter? No, Morales wasn't in his absolute peak for any of the Pacquao fights IMO, but he was pretty much the same guy in the rematch as in the first fight, it was Pacquao who had improved.

And since I had the rematch for Pacquao by just a point, I can see an argument for a pt win for Marquez. But I can't really see the argument for Marquez winning their first fight, he was really lucky to get a draw. The common argument is that Pacquao got dominated after the first two rounds which isn't true. He lost a big chunk of the middle rounds, but came back late to CLEARLY IMO deserve a victory on points.

Maybe you didn't watch the first fight. It was a pretty hard fight. After a career of one tough fight after another. More importantly, he was weight draining at that stage. It was not just that Pacquiao improved. I don't know who wins if you take the Morales of the first fight and put him in with the Pacquiao of the rematches.
Pacquiao was lucky to get the draw in the first Marquez fight, in my opinion. Pacquiao did not come back after the 2nd, with the exception of one or two rounds. Obviously it is all very subjective, but as I said, I know that many will disagree.
As I said, someone will have to explain to me how it is that I can be accused of being biased against a fighter who I think can be rated top 50 P4P.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

[.
Broughton... you're an idiot. Casamayor won the third Corrales fight legitimately. Your chronology is wrong, Casamayor was stripped before the Santa Cruz fight. And your logic is wrong; David Diaz was never a linear champion, regardless of what Casamayor was doing. Diaz only got his belt because the WBC wanted to see him fight Morales. Anyone who says that Pacquiao is a Lightweight champion doesn't know boxing.

Mayweather is avoiding Pacquiao? Really? Well, I will bet anyone on this forum that, assuming Mayweather beats Marquez, that Mayweather and Pacquiao meet, either late this year or early next year.

- My silly little soft lad, we think you should take care tossing around silly little insults. We want to preserve your well being to have a little sport with on this board.

Casa won a split in the last Corrales fight, meaning the decision was at least partially disputed in the whole disputed series. His next fight is with Santa Cruz over a year later for the same belt. Sweet mother of Cap'n Mustard, I thought I made it clear that lineal titles these days are fig leafs for pretentious blowhards to disguise how little they know. Diaz was a WBC belt holder just like all of Mr. Money's belts. So what if the WBC wanted him to fight Morales?

Recently the WBA made Niko fight Mr. E. H. Field against his protests. These orgs pull whatever strings they wish. WBC wanted Leon to rematch Ali, and so on and so forth.

As far as Manny fighting Mr. Money, the fight looks doubtful because Manny is an Arum fighter and MM won't fight Arum fighters as he's make clear many times in the past.

He's as likely to retire again as fight, so no need to worry your soft little head about it.

[I Feel Fine]

My soft little head thinks that the amount of money that they will make will cause all other issues to disappear. As for the notion that Diaz was the legitimate Lightweight champion when Pacquiao beat him, well, I think that claim speaks for itself, and shows your lack of knowledge. What did Diaz ever do to be awarded that belt? Nothing. It means as little as the WBC belt that Gatti won against Branco or the WBC belt De La Hoya won against Mayorga, which is why I do not consider Mayweather a legitimate Jr. Welterweight or Jr. Middleweight champion, either.

[Smokin'Moe]

after Morales' trilogy with Barrera, i believe the first pacquiao fight was erik's last great stand. In the rematches his heart was there, but his body and reflexes seemed so weak.

[Ezzard]

I think it's a fair argument. He has beaten top p4p fighters and fought them many times. He is a greater fighter than Myaweather but will lose when they meet because Floyd is simply too big for him, that coupled with his style will be too much for Pac. BUT pac is the fighter of the decade IMO.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

He is a greater fighter than Myaweather but will lose when they meet because Floyd is simply too big for him, that coupled with his style will be too much for Pac. BUT pac is the fighter of the decade IMO.

- Where is the origin about Mr. Money's size being too much?

The guy is a natural lightweight/superfeather, so just where is it that he won because he was so much bigger and stronger? He's a very unimposing fighter if anything, winning on a difficult style.

[Ezzard]

He is a greater fighter than Myaweather but will lose when they meet because Floyd is simply too big for him, that coupled with his style will be too much for Pac. BUT pac is the fighter of the decade IMO.

- Where is the origin about Mr. Money's size being too much?

The guy is a natural lightweight/superfeather, so just where is it that he won because he was so much bigger and stronger? He's a very unimposing fighter if anything, winning on a difficult style.

IMO for a fighter to beat Mayweather they need to carry the threat of a big shot to keep him wary and they need to be able to wear him down and get at him. Pac has just KO’d Hatton in a very spectacular fashion but I’d want to see more evidence that the can do this to bigger men. Mayweather knows he can win this one which is why I think he’s trying to line it up.

An opponent is going to miss a lot against Floyd so they are going to have to make their shots count when they do land. They need to draw Floyd out and to some extent take it and give it. I don’t think a smaller man can do this, though I hope I’m wrong because Pac represents the way I want boxers to run their careers, Floyd the opposite.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

IMO for a fighter to beat Mayweather they need to carry the threat of a big shot to keep him wary and they need to be able to wear him down and get at him. Pac has just KO’d Hatton in a very spectacular fashion but I’d want to see more evidence that the can do this to bigger men. Mayweather knows he can win this one which is why I think he’s trying to line it up.

- Everyone with IMO. Facts don't lie and facts are Manny has KOed 3 consecutive big men in spectacular fashion, barely dropping a round if any.

Moreover, maybe you missed the presser, but Mr. Money announced he wants to fight Marquez, not Manny.

If he's trying to line up Manny he sure is doing it a funny way since Manny has an open schedule and looking for a fight, but that observation just me and my IMO. Generally when you want someone in the ring, you go after them, not away from them, but of course he does win fights by running away to the ropes, so maybe it's a style thing for him.

[Collins2000]

IMO for a fighter to beat Mayweather they need to carry the threat of a big shot to keep him wary and they need to be able to wear him down and get at him. Pac has just KO’d Hatton in a very spectacular fashion but I’d want to see more evidence that the can do this to bigger men. Mayweather knows he can win this one which is why I think he’s trying to line it up.

Moreover, maybe you missed the presser, but Mr. Money announced he wants to fight Marquez, not Manny.

Ever heard of building the gate, numpty?

You don't think the potential fight would benefit from a nice Mayweather win over a name opponent?

You don't think Mayweather might want to get in some rounds of real combat before taking on Pacman?

You don't think. Period?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Ever heard of building the gate, numpty?

You don't think the potential fight would benefit from a nice Mayweather win over a name opponent?

You don't think Mayweather might want to get in some rounds of real combat before taking on Pacman?

You don't think. Period?

- Why colly dearest, I prefer drink, so I'll let you have your periods.

Last I checked, Mr. Moneybags was so rich that he could no longer work for slave wages and backed out of his two biggest gates ever.

What potential fight are you talking off? Already on record as saying he won't touch an Arum fighter.

Why would a billionaire even bother to build a piddly multimillion dollar gate, and are you calling him a liar by saying he would break his word and fight an Arum fighter?

My feelings are hurting for Mr. Money. You have disrespected the greatest boxer of the past 400 yrs of modern boxing. Mr. Money is certainly tough enough to take your heat, but I shall have to cry myself to bed to drown out my hurted feelings....oh boo hooo, hooooo.....

[Collins2000]

Ever heard of building the gate, numpty?

You don't think the potential fight would benefit from a nice Mayweather win over a name opponent?

You don't think Mayweather might want to get in some rounds of real combat before taking on Pacman?

You don't think. Period?

- Why colly dearest, I prefer drink, so I'll let you have your periods.

Last I checked, Mr. Moneybags was so rich that he could no longer work for slave wages and backed out of his two biggest gates ever.

What potential fight are you talking off? Already on record as saying he won't touch an Arum fighter.

Why would a billionaire even bother to build a piddly multimillion dollar gate, and are you calling him a liar by saying he would break his word and fight an Arum fighter?

My feelings are hurting for Mr. Money. You have disrespected the greatest boxer of the past 400 yrs of modern boxing. Mr. Money is certainly tough enough to take your heat, but I shall have to cry myself to bed to drown out my hurted feelings....oh boo hooo, hooooo.....

Numpty, why string the mush out over so many paragraphs? You know we only skim through them looking for the first stupid comment which is usually in............... wait for it............. the first paragraph.

Let's put is this way.

If PBF and Pacman keep winning and sign for a megafight in the next 12 months it will be clear which one of us is the poseur.

[Ezzard]

IMO for a fighter to beat Mayweather they need to carry the threat of a big shot to keep him wary and they need to be able to wear him down and get at him. Pac has just KO’d Hatton in a very spectacular fashion but I’d want to see more evidence that the can do this to bigger men. Mayweather knows he can win this one which is why I think he’s trying to line it up.

Moreover, maybe you missed the presser, but Mr. Money announced he wants to fight Marquez, not Manny.

Ever heard of building the gate, numpty?

You don't think the potential fight would benefit from a nice Mayweather win over a name opponent?

You don't think Mayweather might want to get in some rounds of real combat before taking on Pacman?

You don't think. Period?

That's usually how it works. Floyd beats a previous opponent of Pac's; pac beats one of Floyd's. They square off.

[Collins2000]

That's usually how it works. Floyd beats a previous opponent of Pac's; pac beats one of Floyd's. They square off.

Nah, not in numpty's world. They have to go to Canada and have a secret bout in front of a bunch of lumberjacks...

[Ezzard]

That's usually how it works. Floyd beats a previous opponent of Pac's; pac beats one of Floyd's. They square off.

Nah, not in numpty's world. They have to go to Canada and have a secret bout in front of a bunch of lumberjacks...

DD

Collins you are easily the best p155 taker on the forum...

[zslayton]

No, I definitely agree he is top 20 PFP all time. 4 linear titles across 4 different weight classes (115,126,130, and 140) . . .that is amazing.

So in the 2nd fight after one of his career performances (Pacquao 1) which occured w/in the year, Morales is suddenly shot and weight drained??
Marquez beat him in BOTH fights?

There is some big bias here.

I have to agree. Manny is a top 20 PFP of all time guy. He hasn't just gone up beating cans. He has come up beating the man or men in every weight class. Nobody has done that like he has before.

[harrygreb]

i feel that he is one of the best i have seen in many years of involvement in our sport. in 2 years time we wont be arguing about his top 20 all time status. IMHO he beats chavez peak for peak.