Ratings - please read before commenting - Archived

[bungle]

Am I missing something here? Can anyone explain why Manny Pacquiao is ranked 5th in the pound for pound list on this website? Even before he humiliated Ricky Hatton tonight? This guy has embarrassed Barrera twice, Morales twice, put Marquez down 4 times in 2 fights, put De la Hoya into retirement, etc etc. He has a guy ranked ahead of him who was knocked out cold not all that long ago in Darchinyan. He just beat Marquez for god's sake, who is ranked ahead of him (though I know this was a SD and could have gone either way). Shane Mosely was very impressive against Margarito, but has he done anything spectacular other than that in the past several years?? Bernard Hopkins lost to Calzaghe recently, and though he whipped Pavlik, hasn't even fought in months. I'm not trying to ride Pacquiao's nuts, and I take nothing away from those other guys, they are really great. Marquez is actually my favorite fighter right now. I just believe in giving credit where credit is due. And to have some of these guys ranked ahead of him even before he CRUSHED Hatton tonight is just ludicrous in my opinion. I don't understand what more that guy has to do. I think some sites just make up lists like that to be different and stir up discussion. I guess it worked huh?

[bungle]

I'm very new to posting here and I just started a thread based on this topic before I actually saw this. This is silly. These must be the same eggheads who are behind the BCS. I've been wondering how the hell Pacquiao has been ranked behind some of these guys on the lb for lb. Now I know. Computers. How about opening your eyes and watching these fights? You don't need computers and formulas to know that Manny Pacquiao has clearly been the best fighter in the world for some time. Almost every boxing analyst/expert calls Pacquiao lb for lb the best. He has CRUSHED several legendary boxers of the last several years, only losing one fight by a hair to a guy he dominated the next 2 fights. Thank god this computer system doesn't decide championships.

[gunners9191]

On the boxrec P4P list they say that hopkins is P4P the best fighter, how did they come up with that answer

[banjo]

Probably because his last 4 opponents were all regarded as top 10 P4P and he beat 3 of them clearly and lost controversially to the other.

[crusader]

Read the thread at the top of the forum named "Boxrec Rankings"

[computerrank]

Computerrank: Can you have a look at the all-time light welter rankings please. No 13 Len Davies does not look like he should feature so high looking at his record.

2 remarks:

- he should be better rated at featherweight

- he had a special year 1943, defeating Jackie Paterson (all time #4 flyweight) and some others

Code: Select all

date      |division            |boxer               |opponent            |rs|dec|box_0>box_1|opp_0|opp_1|h_adv
----------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--|---|-----|-----|-----|-----
1938-01-24|                    |Davies              |Kiley               |L |PTS|    0|    0|    0|    0
1939-01-16|                    |Davies              |McDonald            |W |TKO|    0|   31|    2|    1
1939-01-22|                    |Davies              |Howser              |W |PTS|   18|   30|    6|    5
1939-01-26|                    |Davies              |Walters             |W |PTS|   24|   58|   85|   55
1939-02-02|                    |Davies              |Dyer                |W |PTS|   58|  117|  101|   76
1939-02-05|                    |Davies              |Sage                |W |PTS|  117|  117|    3|    3
1939-02-15|                    |Davies              |Clemo               |W |TKO|  117|  134|   67|   50
1939-03-05|                    |Davies              |Savage              |W |PTS|  134|  134|    0|    0
1939-03-15|                    |Davies              |Lyons               |L |PTS|  134|  108|   76|  126
1939-03-16|                    |Davies              |Howser              |W |PTS|  108|  108|    5|    5
1939-03-27|                    |Davies              |Lewis               |W |PTS|  108|  125|   72|   55
1939-04-03|                    |Davies              |Locke               |W |PTS|  125|  125|    0|    0
1939-05-17|                    |Davies              |Llewellyn           |W |PTS|  125|  125|    0|    0
1939-06-26|Super Bantamweight  |Davies              |Tanner              |L |DQ |  125|  125|  532|  532
1939-08-14|                    |Davies              |Smith               |W |PTS|  125|  139|   46|   41
1939-08-20|                    |Davies              |Lewis               |W |TKO|  139|  139|    0|    0
1939-11-06|                    |Davies              |Sage                |W |PTS|  139|  139|    1|    1
1939-11-20|                    |Davies              |Dixon               |L |PTS|  139|  124|  285|  300
1940-02-25|                    |Davies              |Softley             |L |DQ |  116|   58|    0|   59
1942-02-14|                    |Davies              |Thomas              |W |PTS|   17|  107|  150|   96
1942-02-20|                    |Davies              |Kendall             |D |PTS|  127|  148|  191|  170
1942-03-01|                    |Davies              |Barton              |W |PTS|  181|  266|  218|  167
1942-03-09|                    |Davies              |Phillips            |L |PTS|  249|  209|  455|  495
1942-09-12|                    |Davies              |Lockie              |W |PTS|  223|  223|    0|    0
1942-09-25|                    |Davies              |Parkin              |W |PTS|  223|  223|    5|    5
1942-10-15|                    |Davies              |Jackson             |L |PTS|  197|  159|  380|  418
1942-11-02|                    |Davies              |Holt                |W |PTS|  169|  185|   76|   64
1943-01-01|                    |Davies              |Hinds               |W |DQ |  185|  186|   95|   95
1943-01-15|                    |Davies              |Hinds               |W |TKO|  186|  212|   95|   73
1943-02-03|                    |Davies              |Hinds               |W |PTS|  212|  219|   73|   66
1943-04-10|                    |Davies              |Brady               |W |PTS|  234|  479|  607|  404
1943-05-21|                    |Davies              |Davis               |W |KO |  391|  391|   60|   60
1943-05-24|                    |Davies              |Tarleton            |W |PTS|  422|  715|  866|  644
1943-06-09|                    |Davies              |Hinds               |W |PTS|  762|  762|  114|  114
1943-06-14|                    |Davies              |Jackson             |L |PTS|  715|  453|  190|  516
1943-06-30|Featherweight       |Davies              |Phillips            |L |PTS|  482|  375|  489|  626
1943-08-07|                    |Davies              |Jackson             |W |PTS|  353|  527|  445|  313
1943-09-16|                    |Davies              |Benson              |W |PTS|  560|  560|  104|  104
1943-09-27|Flyweight           |Davies              |Paterson            |W |PTS|  709| 1480| 1890| 1299
1943-11-18|Super Featherweight |Davies              |Jackson             |W |DQ | 1099| 1099|  248|  248
1943-11-24|                    |Davies              |Phillips            |L |PTS| 1099|  820|  636|  948
1943-12-16|                    |Davies              |Jackson             |L |PTS|  820|  534|  248|  609
1944-02-28|                    |Davies              |Williams            |W |PTS|  534|  633|  399|  301
1944-03-08|Featherweight       |Davies              |Duffy               |W |PTS|  674|  776|  444|  342
1944-04-03|                    |Davies              |Williams            |W |PTS|  776|  776|  151|  151
1944-06-08|                    |Davies              |Woods               |W |PTS|  676|  676|   13|   13
1944-08-02|Featherweight       |Davies              |Phillips            |L |DQ |  776|  733| 1046| 1088
1945-01-08|                    |Davies              |Crowley             |L |PTS|  594|  486|  917| 1025
1945-01-17|                    |Davies              |Brady               |L |PTS|  600|  451|  385|  567
1946-03-01|                    |Davies              |Kay                 |L |PTS|  393|  202|   11|  230
1946-03-04|                    |Davies              |Jackson             |L |PTS|  218|  168|  201|  284
1947-12-09|                    |Davies              |Duffy               |D |PTS|   69|  163|  187|  180
1947-12-22|                    |Davies              |Bonas               |L |PTS|  187|  146|  195|  266
1948-01-08|Lightweight         |Davies              |Duffy               |W |PTS|  127|  206|  185|  140
1948-01-22|                    |Davies              |Bond                |L |PTS|  206|  114|   22|  127
1948-02-05|                    |Davies              |Dunthorpe           |W |KO |  114|  176|   86|   61
1948-02-19|                    |Davies              |Duffy               |L |PTS|  176|  137|  180|  251
1948-03-11|Lightweight         |Davies              |Bagwell             |L |PTS|  137|  137|  699|  699
1948-12-21|                    |Davies              |Young               |L |PTS|  137|   85|   34|   92
1949-01-31|                    |Davies              |Evans               |L |PTS|   85|   79|  257|  263
1949-02-28|Featherweight       |Davies              |Hughes              |L |PTS|   91|   80|  270|  281
1949-04-25|                    |Davies              |Duffy               |W |PTS|   80|  158|  169|  125
1949-10-17|                    |Davies              |Davies              |W |PTS|  158|  159|   42|   41
1950-04-24|                    |Davies              |Anderson            |W |PTS|  138|  214|  176|  134
1950-08-23|Featherweight       |Davies              |Hughes              |L |TKO|  245|  168|  289|  394
1952-03-03|Lightweight         |Davies              |Evans               |L |PTS|   72|   69|  263|  266
1952-04-07|                    |Davies              |Mann                |L |PTS|   65|   65|  358|  358
1952-04-19|Light Welterweight  |Davies              |Coote               |L |TKO|   65|   55|  169|  179

[Diego Delgado]

I love this site.

But I gotta say, Ive been coming onto BoxRec for over 5 years.

And I find it absolutely appalling that Bernard Hopkins is rated P4P above Manny Pacquiao. I understand there are mathetical procedures for determining that rating. But god damn it, something is obviously wrong with the math.

Needs to be fixed. BHOP is nowhere even close to P4P #1 fighter... Thats just absurd.

BoxRec's P4P ratings is becoming a joke. BHOP #1 is utterly absurd.

Is it a bad joke?

Manny Pacquiao is unquestionably #1 P4P. So, the math is wrong.

I find it appalling and quite unbecoming of the overall site to be quite honest.

[computerrank]

I love this site.

But I gotta say, Ive been coming onto BoxRec for over 5 years.

And I find it absolutely appalling that Bernard Hopkins is rated P4P above Manny Pacquiao. I understand there are mathetical procedures for determining that rating. But god damn it, something is obviously wrong with the math.

Needs to be fixed. BHOP is nowhere even close to P4P #1 fighter... Thats just absurd.

BoxRec's P4P ratings is becoming a joke. BHOP #1 is utterly absurd.

Is it a bad joke?

Manny Pacquiao is unquestionably #1 P4P. So, the math is wrong.

I find it appalling and quite unbecoming of the overall site to be quite honest.

Here is the development of both boxers' Boxrec ratings:

- You can see - both are now at about level even (100 points difference at his level are not significant)

- Hopkins' last 5 opponents were all very strong - all above 1700 points

- Pacquiao had only 2 opponents with more than 1700 points within this time - and he lost about 200 points due to missing opponent quality between 2006-01-21 and 2007-10-06

box_0>box_1: boxer's rating before and after the bouts
opp_0>opp_1: opponent's rating before and after the bout

Code: Select all

date      |division            |boxer               |opponent            |rs|dec|box_0>box_1|opp_0>opp_1
----------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--|---|-----|-----|-----|-----
2001-04-14|Middleweight        |Hopkins             |Holmes              |W |UD | 1360| 1871| 1377|  916
2001-09-29|Middleweight        |Hopkins             |Trinidad            |W |TKO| 1871| 3089| 3097| 1928
2002-02-02|Middleweight        |Hopkins             |Daniels             |W |TKO| 3089| 3089|  549|  549
2003-03-29|Middleweight        |Hopkins             |Hakkar              |W |RTD| 3089| 3089|  625|  625
2003-12-13|Middleweight        |Hopkins             |Joppy               |W |UD | 2170| 2370|  992|  792
2004-06-05|Middleweight        |Hopkins             |Allen               |W |UD | 2270| 2270|  512|  512
2004-09-18|Middleweight        |Hopkins             |De La Hoya          |W |KO | 2270| 2676| 1482| 1076
2005-02-19|Middleweight        |Hopkins             |Eastman             |W |UD | 2676| 2787|  918|  807
2005-07-16|Middleweight        |Hopkins             |Taylor              |L |SD | 2787| 1919| 1051| 1937
2005-12-03|Middleweight        |Hopkins             |Taylor              |L |UD | 1919| 1709| 1937| 2160
2006-06-10|Light Heavyweight   |Hopkins             |Tarver              |W |UD | 1429| 2387| 2399| 1492
2007-07-21|Light Heavyweight   |Hopkins             |Wright              |W |UD | 2387| 2874| 1858| 1371
2008-04-19|Light Heavyweight   |Hopkins             |Calzaghe            |L |SD | 2874| 2327| 1780| 2478
2008-10-18|Light Heavyweight   |Hopkins             |Pavlik              |W |UD | 2327| 2861| 1782| 1249

date      |division            |boxer               |opponent            |rs|dec|box_0>box_1|opp_0>opp_1
----------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--|---|-----|-----|-----|-----

2001-02-24|Super Bantamweight  |Pacquiao            |Senrima             |W |TKO|  809|  840|  272|  241
2001-04-28|Super Bantamweight  |Pacquiao            |Sakmuangklang       |W |TKO|  840|  885|  311|  266
2001-06-23|Super Bantamweight  |Pacquiao            |Ledwaba             |W |TKO|  819| 1141|  818|  545
2001-11-10|Super Bantamweight  |Pacquiao            |Sanchez             |D |TD |    0|    0|    0|    0
2002-06-08|Super Bantamweight  |Pacquiao            |Julio               |W |TKO| 1141| 1142|  287|  286
2002-10-26|Super Bantamweight  |Pacquiao            |Rakkiatgym          |W |KO | 1142| 1142|  240|  240
2003-03-15|Featherweight       |Pacquiao            |Yeshmagambetov      |W |TKO| 1071| 1071|   60|   60
2003-07-26|Super Bantamweight  |Pacquiao            |Lucero              |W |TKO|  858|  924|  363|  297
2003-11-15|Featherweight       |Pacquiao            |Barrera             |W |TKO|  836| 1804| 2275| 1357
2004-05-08|Featherweight       |Pacquiao            |Marquez             |D |PTS| 1804| 1646| 1332| 1489
2004-12-11|Featherweight       |Pacquiao            |3K Battery          |W |TKO| 1646| 1646|  208|  208
2005-03-19|Super Featherweight |Pacquiao            |Morales             |L |UD | 1547| 1384| 1593| 1764
2005-09-10|Super Featherweight |Pacquiao            |Velazquez           |W |TKO| 1384| 1384|  322|  322
2006-01-21|Super Featherweight |Pacquiao            |Morales             |W |TKO| 1384| 1692| 1038|  731
2006-07-02|Super Featherweight |Pacquiao            |Larios              |W |UD | 1692| 1742|  535|  485
2006-11-18|Super Featherweight |Pacquiao            |Morales             |W |KO | 1742| 1873|  731|  599
2007-04-14|Super Featherweight |Pacquiao            |Solis               |W |KO | 1873| 1893|  514|  494
2007-10-06|Super Featherweight |Pacquiao            |Barrera             |W |UD | 1677| 1935|  998|  741
2008-03-15|Super Featherweight |Pacquiao            |Marquez             |W |SD | 1935| 1956| 1884| 1864
2008-06-28|Lightweight         |Pacquiao            |Diaz                |W |TKO| 1814| 1890|  624|  548
2008-12-06|Welterweight        |Pacquiao            |De La Hoya          |W |RTD| 1594| 1951| 1201|  844
2009-05-02|Light Welterweight  |Pacquiao            |Hatton              |W |KO | 2150| 2711| 1801| 1250

[Asterix]

Looks like Hopkins has a lot to thank Felix Trinidad for!

[computerrank]

Looks like Hopkins has a lot to thank Felix Trinidad for!

... not that much - he was down to 1429 before the second Tarver match - but yes, this was his historic high.

[hitman09]

Probably because his last 4 opponents were all regarded as top 10 P4P and he beat 3 of them clearly and lost controversially to the other.

And because he's been at the top for so long he was bound to pick up a lot of points.

[Diego Delgado]

It is absolutely appalling that Bernard Hopkins is rated above Manny Pacman P4P. There is no excusing this.

There doesn't exist a single credible boxing source in the entire world that rates BHOP as #1 P4P (or anyone other than Manny Pacquiao for that matter).

Case in point: BoxRec's P4P ratings are utterly absurd at this point.

Something's wrong with the math, if its producing results like this. The math needs to be changed. Cuz I'll tell you: It's not a matter of opinion. BoxRec's P4P is wrong. It's socially incorrect and realistically unpractical. As I said, after last weekend's results there isn't a single credible boxing source in the WHOLE WORLD that doesn't have Manny as #1.

Something is very wrong here. The math is not accurately reflecting the reality of the situation.

The lb 4 lb section is an embarrassment to the site at this point. Something is wrong with the mathematical model if its producing results like BHOP #1 P4P.

(This is a positive message, please take it as such)

[JCS]

Hopkins' last five opponents were all in the Top 10 P4P at the time of the fight.... probably Top 7, I don't recall. At least two were in the Top 5.

David Diaz, Worn out De La Hoya, and Worn out Barrera were three of Manny's last 5.

[JCS]

Hopkins' last five opponents were all in the Top 10 P4P at the time of the fight.... probably Top 7, I don't recall. At least two were in the Top 5.

David Diaz, Worn out De La Hoya, and Worn out Barrera were three of Manny's last 5.

The BoxRec rating system does not give extra credit for moving divisions.

[Diego Delgado]

k, out of more than 10 boxing websites and credible sources that I have just checked, every single one has Manny Pacquiao as #1 P4P fighter, and not a single one even has Bernard in the top3. Its not a matter of opinion. It is a unanimously agreed upon line of thinking. Manny Pac is #1.

There is no room for disagreement when EVERY SINGLE credible boxing source in the world supports this notion.

So who are we kidding here with these ratings?

The ratings system is not accurately reflecting the situation.

So lets get with it.

The lb 4 lb ratings on this site are a disaster. The math system is a disaster at this point.

What good is the math system if its producing absurd results like this?

[JCS]

Hopkins is #3 at the Ring and ESPN. Stop talking out your ass.

The computer sees results, it doesn't give extra credit for moving divisions nor can it see the flash factor.

[Asterix]

Hopkins is #3 at the Ring and ESPN. Stop talking out your ass.

The computer sees results, it doesn't give extra credit for moving divisions nor can it see the flash factor.

The BBC also have Hopkins as #3, and their ratings are generally good.

[Jaywheel]

Hopkins is #3 at the Ring and ESPN.

Those aren't credible sources

[JCS]

Now, don't get me wrong.. I'm not saying that Hopkins is undoubtedly #1 P4P, but I dare anyone to find a stronger strength of schedule. The fights with Taylor were razor thin, as was the one with Calzaghe. Pacquiao hasn't been without his close calls either (Marquez).

[Jaywheel]

Now, don't get me wrong.. I'm not saying that Hopkins is undoubtedly #1 P4P, but I dare anyone to find a stronger strength of schedule. The fights with Taylor were razor thin, as was the one with Calzaghe. Pacquiao hasn't been without his close calls either (Marquez).

add the pavlik and tarver victories to that.

[JCS]

Now, don't get me wrong.. I'm not saying that Hopkins is undoubtedly #1 P4P, but I dare anyone to find a stronger strength of schedule. The fights with Taylor were razor thin, as was the one with Calzaghe. Pacquiao hasn't been without his close calls either (Marquez).

add the pavlik and tarver victories to that.

I was talking about the close wins/close losses on each of their records.. Obviously Pavlik and Tarver don't fit the bill DD

Also, when's the last time Pac had a decisive victory over someone at the high point of their careers? How many of his recent opponents were at the high point? These are the questions you need to ask yourself when trying to figure out what the rating system is doing.

[conan_the_cribber]

Now, don't get me wrong.. I'm not saying that Hopkins is undoubtedly #1 P4P, but I dare anyone to find a stronger strength of schedule. The fights with Taylor were razor thin, as was the one with Calzaghe. Pacquiao hasn't been without his close calls either (Marquez).

add the pavlik and tarver victories to that.

I was talking about the close wins/close losses on each of their records.. Obviously Pavlik and Tarver don't fit the bill DD

Also, when's the last time Pac had a decisive victory over someone at the high point of their careers? How many of his recent opponents were at the high point? These are the questions you need to ask yourself when trying to figure out what the rating system is doing.

Makes sense to me, and I bitch about the ratings system all the time. You can definitely make a case for Bernhard, he moved up in weight too.

The p4p rating is much harder to get right. I dont want to even think of trying.

[conan_the_cribber]

Is it possible to see the points for the p4p ratings in a nice list? I think it used to be possible from the ratings page, but it doesnt seem to possible any more. That might save some arguments when people see that the pts are so close.

cheers

conan

[computerrank]

Is it possible to see the points for the p4p ratings in a nice list? I think it used to be possible from the ratings page, but it doesnt seem to possible any more. That might save some arguments when people see that the pts are so close.

cheers

conan

Conan,

... click at the weight division assigned and you will see the points ...

[computerrank]

John was busy ... all time ratings back with rating points assigned ...