Tyson in the all time P4P

Chris the fighter · Post by **Chris the fighter** » 05 Aug 2004, 11:39

How can Tyson be ranked now after this latest defeat against well a journeyman in American eyes anyway. Can he still be ranked in the top ten. When Lewis retired many boxing writers put a black mark against him for losing to two journeymen but surely that has to apply to Tyson and Holyfield as well. In his last fight Holy was stopped by a blown up middleweight. Both men are shot but surely with each defeat their greatness decreases. I think that most expects usually have Ali and Louis at the top but I find it differicult to rank Holyfield and Tyson above
Lewis.

J · Post by J » 05 Aug 2004, 11:40

Simply put you wouldnt rank them above lewis well I wouldnt anyway.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 05 Aug 2004, 11:44

The Williams loss shouldn't matter when it comes to ranking Tyson's career over all. He's 38 and well past it. It's the Douglas and Hoyfield losses that will really count.
I'm probably biased ( and most are, when it comes to ranking fighters from their own eras ) but I'd stick Mike somewhere in the all time top ten. At his peak, he was an unstoppable force. Ali could've handled him, maybe a peak Foreman too. Liston? Who knows..

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 05 Aug 2004, 11:48

Any of the great heavywweight champs would have had a chance against Mike, due to his mental frailty. However, Tyson would have had a chance against any of them too.

My list is as follows, though it changes often to be honest.

Louis
Ali
Holmes
Lewis
Foreman
Frazier
Marciano
Dempsey
Tyson
Liston

beduff · Post by **beduff** » 05 Aug 2004, 11:59

foreman would of killed tyson

in know specific order my all time top 5,ali,foreman,frazier,lewis,marciano.on the frenge are shavers and joe louis.i rate tyson around 8/9.

J · Post by J » 05 Aug 2004, 12:03

beduff wrote:foreman would of killed tyson in know specific order my all time top 5,ali,foreman,frazier,lewis,marciano.on the frenge are shavers and joe louis.i rate tyson around 8/9.

joe louis fringe. ahem.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 05 Aug 2004, 12:05

What the fornicate!!! How can Louis be fringe. Christ, 25 title defences, and that doesn't even take into account that he lost 3 of his prime year to the war effort.

You wazzock.

beduff · Post by **beduff** » 05 Aug 2004, 12:05

i change my mind all the time loius was a great great fighter

beduff · Post by **beduff** » 05 Aug 2004, 12:06

jamesmcdonnell wrote:What the fornicate!!! How can Louis be fringe. Christ, 25 title defences, and that doesn't even take into account that he lost 3 of his prime year to the war effort.

You wazzock.

so where do you rate him james?number 6 imo.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 05 Aug 2004, 12:07

My top 15 heavies of all time

1) Muhammad Ali
2) Joe Louis
3) Larry Holmes
4) Jack Johnson
5) Jack Dempsey
6) Rocky Marciano
7) George Foreman
8] Jim Jeffries
9) Evander Holyfield
10) Joe Frazier
11) Gene Tunney
12) Sonny Liston
13) Jim Corbett
14) Lennox Lewis
15) Jersey Joe Walcott

My hardest-hitting heavies of all time

1) Joe Louis
2) Jack Dempsey
3) George Foreman
4) Rocky Marciano
5) Jim Jeffries
6) Sonny Liston
7) John L. Sullivan
8] Joe Frazier
9) Mike Tyson
10)Earnie Shavers

My ten greatest fighters ever

1) SUGAR RAY ROBINSON
2) MUHAMMAD ALI
3) JOE LOUIS
4) HENRY ARMSTRONG
5) WILLIE PEP
6) ARCHIE MOORE
7) SUGAR RAY LEONARD
8] MARVIN HAGLER
9) ROBERTO DURAN
10) BENNY LEONARD

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 05 Aug 2004, 12:12

bennie wrote:My top 15 heavies of all time

1) Muhammad Ali
2) Joe Louis
3) Larry Holmes
4) Jack Johnson
5) Jack Dempsey
6) Rocky Marciano
7) George Foreman
8] Jim Jeffries
9) Evander Holyfield
10) Joe Frazier
11) Gene Tunney
12) Sonny Liston
13) Jim Corbett
14) Lennox Lewis
15) Jersey Joe Walcott

My hardest-hitting heavies of all time

1) Joe Louis
2) Jack Dempsey
3) George Foreman
4) Rocky Marciano
5) Jim Jeffries
6) Sonny Liston
7) John L. Sullivan
8] Joe Frazier
9) Mike Tyson
10)Earnie Shavers

My ten greatest fighters ever

1) SUGAR RAY ROBINSON
2) MUHAMMAD ALI
3) JOE LOUIS
4) HENRY ARMSTRONG
5) WILLIE PEP
6) ARCHIE MOORE
7) SUGAR RAY LEONARD
8] MARVIN HAGLER
9) ROBERTO DURAN
10) BENNY LEONARD

Is this list based on whom would have beaten whom? I am guessing it must have been. Even so, do you think Corbett would have beaten Lewis? I cannot see it meself.

Lewis surely deserves to be higher for his tenures as champion.

I also never bother ranking Johnson and Jeffries as it's my belief that you cannot compare their eras with those of later eras, different sports.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 05 Aug 2004, 12:15

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
bennie wrote:My top 15 heavies of all time

1) Muhammad Ali
2) Joe Louis
3) Larry Holmes
4) Jack Johnson
5) Jack Dempsey
6) Rocky Marciano
7) George Foreman
8] Jim Jeffries
9) Evander Holyfield
10) Joe Frazier
11) Gene Tunney
12) Sonny Liston
13) Jim Corbett
14) Lennox Lewis
15) Jersey Joe Walcott

My hardest-hitting heavies of all time

1) Joe Louis
2) Jack Dempsey
3) George Foreman
4) Rocky Marciano
5) Jim Jeffries
6) Sonny Liston
7) John L. Sullivan
8] Joe Frazier
9) Mike Tyson
10)Earnie Shavers

My ten greatest fighters ever

1) SUGAR RAY ROBINSON
2) MUHAMMAD ALI
3) JOE LOUIS
4) HENRY ARMSTRONG
5) WILLIE PEP
6) ARCHIE MOORE
7) SUGAR RAY LEONARD
8] MARVIN HAGLER
9) ROBERTO DURAN
10) BENNY LEONARD

Is this list based on whom would have beaten whom? I am guessing it must have been. Even so, do you think Corbett would have beaten Lewis? I cannot see it meself.

Lewis surely deserves to be higher for his tenures as champion.

I also never bother ranking Johnson and Jeffries as it's my belief that you cannot compare their eras with those of later eras, different sports.

Tough question, James. Impact, ability, greatness in their time, moving the game on a notch...I tend to go on that.

J · Post by J » 05 Aug 2004, 12:15

for what its worth id go with:

Ali
Louis (interchangeable depending on how Im feeling)
Lewis
Holmes
Marciano
Foreman

rest made up of the following:
Tyson, holyfield, Jack Johnson, liston, frazier, and about five ive forgotten

harley_man · Post by **harley_man** » 05 Aug 2004, 12:19

P4P needn't be career-oriented. In the fantasy realm, take your best at their best and face them off. '87ish Tyson makes top 10 HW any day.

NFL football has the any-given-Sunday motto. You can take that to boxing. On any given night, a b-fighter who brings his a-game can beat an a-fighter who brings his b-game. But prime Tyson - and apologies to those of you tired of hearing that term - was a monster and could have beaten anyone on any given night. Not always, mind you.

Career Tyson was a runaway train, though, spewing wreckage and going off the rails - so its hard to earn career kudos.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 05 Aug 2004, 12:24

Tyson's peak was so short, it's hard to squeeze him in my top 15. I feel you have to go on greatness over a longer period than one year in Tyson's case (1988). I also feel Holyfield had his number. Anyone with mental strength would have to be favoured over him historically. That's why even in the hardest-hitting heavies, I rate him below Frazier.

JC · Post by JC » 05 Aug 2004, 12:29

When ranking heavyweights I think that achievement should be the most important factor. As Hopkins, Hagler, Lamotta and Robinson all weighed 160lbs when they fought perhaps you can use the who beat who method to an extent. However as nutrition etc has meant that heavywieghts today are so different from say Patterson or Dempsey it does not apply to the heavies as much. By achievement I mean the quality of opposition faced and titles won and retained.

As far as Tyson goes I think his awsome record upto the Douglass loss and the fact that he was the youngest ever champ garentees his place in the top ten hevies (at about seven). If he had avenged his loss to Holyfeild in their second match it might have put him in the top five and if he had gone on to beat Lewis it might have put him in the top three. While i agree that Tyson had the physical gifts to poentially rival Louis and Ali however his record shows that he did not fulfill this potential. I think it is wrong when people use his form between 1985 and 1990 to imply that the mythical 'PRIME' Mike Tyson was unbeatable.

As for Tysons loss to Williams effecting his Pound 4 Pound rating I don't think it should, just as Louis' loss to Marciano and Ali's loss to Holmes should not detract from their legacies. As for Lewis' losses (and I'm a Lewis fan) I think the reason people use them as evidence that he should not be considered a great is the fact that he was still champion at the time of those losses. However I feel the fact that he has avenged both losses makes an interesting contrast with Tyson

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 05 Aug 2004, 12:30

guys, think about the good old Max Schmeling. he is the only one who knocked Louis in the first round out. at his peak in his home country. in a time when everybody in the audiance was against Schmeling. he belongs in an all time top 15.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 05 Aug 2004, 12:36

Ali
Louis
Foreman
Holmes
Johnson
Liston
Lewis
Holyfield
Tyson
Frazier

Roughly based on who beats who IMO I guess - Liston didn't manage too much as champ, but I'm taking into account he was past his best when he finaly got his shot.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 05 Aug 2004, 12:37

It's interesting that Holmes cracks everyone's top five.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 05 Aug 2004, 12:39

Well, virtually everyone's.

JC · Post by JC » 05 Aug 2004, 12:52

This is George "The Grillmister" Foreman's top ten I got off his site.

1)Joe Louis.
To be honest with you, number two is way off. Joe Louis is in a
class by himself.

2)Rocky Marciano.
Just look at Rocky Marciano's record. Nobody beat him. You can't
take that from him.

3) Jack Johnson.
A big brave cat, because he'd do whatever he wanted and get out of
the way.

4)Muhammad Ali.
Put him down as the GREATEST MAN to ever box, and a hero
bigger than boxing. Once Ali lost his speed, it only showed that
he'd never developed a great defense.
(oooooh contraversial )

5)Joe Frazier.
Only because he depended solely on his left hook do I rate Joe
Frazier below Marciano. Marciano could hit with both hands.

6)Jack Dempsy.
Jack Dempsy's very name means strength and courage. Other than
Joe Louis, there is not a name in boxing or in sports with more
meaning.

7) Mike Tyson.
A phenomenon. What Mike Tyson was able to do with his speed of
hand and punching power is as phenomenal as what Muhammad
Ali did when he was Cassius Clay with speed of feet. Tyson
deserves to be in the top ten; this is where I put him, the youngest
man to become Heavyweight Champion of the World.

8)Sonny Liston.
If Sonny Liston truly had not lost his cool, had not underestimated a
young Cassius Clay; and kept the same mind set that he had as a
contender, history would have been a lot kinder to him. Sonny
Liston could not believe Muhammad Ali was so fast and had so
much courage. It just made him fall apart.

9) Floyd Patterson.
The First Two-Time Heavyweight Champion of the World.

10) Evander Holyfield.
For standing up to Mike Tyson

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 05 Aug 2004, 12:58

Can't agree with Patterson in there and Holmes not. Floyd was quick, talented and underrated as a puncher (think of his kayo over Archie Moore) - but Holmes had the same attributes and by far the better chin.

Neri · Post by **Neri** » 05 Aug 2004, 13:45

I wouldnt say Danny Williams is a journeyman

Hardhitters11 · Post by **Hardhitters11** » 05 Aug 2004, 14:12

My top three never change

1)Muhammad Ali
2) Joe Louis
3) Larry Holmes

after them these very sometimes usually after watching various old fights

4) Lennox Lewis
5) George Foreman
6) Jack Johnson
7)Mike Tyson
8) Rocky Marciano
9) Evander Holyfield
10) Joe Frazier
11) Sonny Liston

Tyson is so high simply for the fact that at his best he beats everyone bar Ali IMO....

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 05 Aug 2004, 14:52

Ali,
Holmes,
Louis,
Holyfield,
Johnson,
Marciano,
Foreman,
Lewis,
Dempsey,
Tyson.

Bennie, to be honest - Tyson is way to low on your punchers list - 44 KO in how many contests?