The Controversial Fights Of Sugar Ray Robinson

[Seamus]

Not an attempt to tear down SRR, but because he's considered the greatest of alltime by more people than any other fighter, I thought it would be interesting to examine some of his close calls. So with that in mind, the fights I'd be interested in hearing comments on are.

2nd fight with Marty Servo
1st fight with Jose Basora
1st fight with Kid Gavilan
Comiskey Park battle with Jake LaMotta
fight with Georgie Abrams

and we'll throw in the 1st bout with Artie Levine.

Any other bouts that come to mind, post your comments.

[Expug]

I remember reading that the second fight with Randy Turpin may have been stopped a bit early.
That Turpin could have weathered the storm.
I dont believe Ive seen the fight.Maybe some posters can shine some light.
Turpin was tough. Damn good fighter.

[klompton]

His bout with Castellani. Many felt Castellani was robbed.

[I Feel Fine]

I remember reading that the second fight with Randy Turpin may have been stopped a bit early.
That Turpin could have weathered the storm.
I dont believe Ive seen the fight.Maybe some posters can shine some light.
Turpin was tough. Damn good fighter.

Robinson must have landed dozens of unanswered power shots. No way was that a bad stoppage.

You could probably find the fight on youtube, or at least clips of it.

[Robinson]

Robinson vs Turpin 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3npTVGLrCs

[klompton]

I agree with the people here who say Robinson-Turpin was NOT controversial. Robinson was giving it to Turpin and he was not fighting back at all.

[Expug]

Whoa, you guys are right.I just saw that video.
Turpin was getting shelled.

[bennie]

Robinson was badly cut and there were four seconds left in the round. Many British reporters at ringside felt Robinson was so badly cut, his attack was out of desperation because he feared he was going to be stopped (fighters cut less back then, for some reson), which only added to the British dismay at the 'four-second' thing.
Now, referees aren't timekeepers. Turpin had been floored, hurt, was behind on points and not punching back. The bell would have only delayed the inevitable.
I do believe, however, one can open a can of worms with Goldstein. I could never understand why he always seemed to referee so many big fights back then. Let's just say he got more than his fair share. Jim Norris and Frankie Carbo monopolised the fight game during that time, and Goldstein certainly monopolised the role of third man during the same time. Yes, he voted for Walcott in the first Louis fight. That is to his great credit. But I'm sure if one dug deeper, one could find a lot of cases where his refereeing - or his scoring - bore him no credit at all. Goldstein refereed the infamous Griffith-Paret fight, for example, of which no words are necessary. He also allowed Floyd Patterson to be knocked down seven times by Johansson before calling a halt.
Four seconds...

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I remember reading that the second fight with Randy Turpin may have been stopped a bit early.
That Turpin could have weathered the storm.
I dont believe Ive seen the fight.Maybe some posters can shine some light.
Turpin was tough. Damn good fighter.

- Turpin stopped under similar circumstances to Taylor against Froch.

Have great respect for Taylor and Turpin in losing efforts for coming off the canvas from shots that put 95% of the fighters down for the count. What was particularly impressive about Turpin was his ability to slip many of Robby's punches which were often wide and looping. All that and then taking two flush left hooks left him slumped and bent over.

I like how the ref stops his first leap in as Turpin is showing some good defense, but Johnny on the spot after the left hooks. One of the best jobs by period refs who are too often seen letting fighters climb off the canvas and wobble all over the ring before continuing.

[bjermaine]

Not an attempt to tear down SRR, but because he's considered the greatest of alltime by more people than any other fighter, I thought it would be interesting to examine some of his close calls. So with that in mind, the fights I'd be interested in hearing comments on are.

2nd fight with Marty Servo
1st fight with Jose Basora
1st fight with Kid Gavilan
Comiskey Park battle with Jake LaMotta
fight with Georgie Abrams

and we'll throw in the 1st bout with Artie Levine.

Any other bouts that come to mind, post your comments.

this is a great topic. anytime a fighter has as many bouts as robinson did, your bound to see some close, questionable decisions. you can look at these fights when someone talks about how unbeatable robinson was in his prime.

[jaclem2]

..there had been a fighter killed in the ring in new york a fairly short time before the 2nd turpin fight. it might have been laverne roach by georgie small. the commission and the ref were well aware of that. this was the argument those who thought the fight was stopped too soon. i saw the fight..big screen closed circuit. i thought the stoppage was correct and on viewing the film over a few times am certain it was. A.J. Leibling in his book "the sweet science" thinks it shouldn't have been stopped...but then he wasn't getting hit by sugar ray.

first robinson/gavilan fight. no question ray won. he was probably carrying gavilan to set up their title fight, as gavilan was very popular and would be a good draw.

first artie levine fight. i think they fought only once, and yes, ray did get a long count. levine was a middleweight who sometimes tangled with light heavies. when ray got his head cleared he kayoed levine. he never denied he got a long count. he usually said his mind was so foggy he had no idea what the count was. He said somewhere - maybe it was in his first life story - thathe just reached up to pick up levine's left hook and the next thing he knew he was on the canvas.

i saw the robinson/castellini fight on live tv.. close fight, my scorecard, which i may still have, had him winning. I think he was knocked down in an early round- not positive. i do remember he made a strong finish to give him the win. the fight was scored on points, and i think the california system was to split 11 points - 6-5,7-4, etc. (many fights outside new york) had a split 10 point system. so usually a knockdown was scored 6/4. with the california system a 7/4 split gave a knockdown 3 points instead of 2, so maybe i'm wrong about his being on the floor against castellini.
i don't know enough about the other fights to have an opinion, but i'm looking forward to any comments that come up here.

[I Feel Fine]

Robinson certainly felt he was robbed in the first Basilio fight, and Basilio of course believes he won the rematch. I suppose that is not surprising, but I figure it is worth mentioning, and they were both split decisions.
Many thought Robinson won the third Fullmer fight, which was scored a draw.
Unlike many other popular, legendary fighters, Robinson is probably spared of a lot of nitpicking over some of his close decisions because of the fact that we do not have film of most of his fights. You would imagine that if we had film of more of his fights that this topic would be talked about more, as it does seem that he had a few controversial decisions, which as others mentioned is not surprising considering the number of fights he had. As an older fighter he had some off nights and lost some famous close decisions as champion, hence his five time champion record at Middleweight; you figure that the close decisions that he lost when he was an older Middleweight champion were probably the same kind of close decisions that he was able to get away with when he was younger and at his better weight. As he got older he was less and less able to do that. It really is quite agonizing, from a modern boxing fans perspective, not being able to see his Welterweight fights, with the exception of whatever little pirated stuff we have.