Jack Dempsey vs Ike Ibeabuchi

[BoxBuzz]

Well we've discussed the rock vs the tua man.

I figured it was only a matter of time before this match up would be suggested.

So have at it.

Why do I imagine that those who imagined Tua having his way with Rocky will have the President lording it over the Mauler....and vice versa?
Because what we have here is a generational division of a opinion vs a genuine boxing discussion.

Prove me wrong....please.

[HomicideHenry]

IMO, Dempsey/Marciano would be the war I'd want to see. It would be Tua/Ibeabuchi on a much grander scale.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Dempsey did most things better than Marciano, & was the superior all-round fighter. However, much of Marciano's opposition did things better than he, but still fell short.

Marciano's great equaliser is his power here, but Dempsey wasn't exactly soft in a war, & I take him to slice Marciano to bits, score two knockdowns, be floored once himself, & emerge with a between-rounds stoppage victory after about seven.

This is after he's warmed up with Ibeabuchi beforehand, who has next to no chance to win with his lack of experience.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Why do I imagine that those who imagined Tua having his way with Rocky will have the President lording it over the Mauler....and vice versa?
Because what we have here is a generational division of a opinion vs a genuine boxing discussion.

- Too many of you drink the standard issue koolaide.

Dempsey is loads better than Rocky and actually has a history of beating Giants of his day, being known as Jack the Giant Killer. He also happens to be a fav of mine, but I don't go around making him out to be invincible.

The man himself had an humble opinion of himself yet had a fighting brain equivalent to Archie's boxing brain. Guy knew how to handle himself and wrote a primer for self defense that I hear some self defense schools use.

Ike was pure strength, nonstop aggression, stamina and chin, and anyone who thinks Ike is an easy day at the office is an dolt. Firpo is the closest thing to Ike that Jack fought and he was almost KOed in that fight.

Maybe you should ask why you would propose a hypothetical without setting the conditions?

Generally, Dempsey will be quicker, more experienced, but he can't go straight at a prime slab of muscle like he usually did, leaping inside for a quick flurry. That's leaping into Ike's wheelhouse. Potentially Jack could do it with the right game, but as it stands with what we know, I don't like his chances.

Maybe the Klitschos or Lewis could do it with size, strength, and boxing, maybe Foreman with slugging. Ali could run him around the ring, but ropadope clearly ineffective against Ike, and when did Ali show he could run for 12?

Joe Louis is another who laid back as often as not and waited for deadly counters. Ike was very special, yet still a work in progress. Lot of potential lost and no guarantees anybody is gonna beat him.

[dempseyfire]

Ike Ibeabuchi . . .beyond Tua, the most over-rated heavyweight of all time!

Maybe he would've become an all-time great, but the only thing certifiable is that he became a complete nutcase.

This is like throwing Luther McCarty in with Jim Jefferies in a fantasy fight. We'll never really know, but a couple wins vs contenders does not a great fighter make.

Per usual, BRR's post questioning whether the likes of Ali, Louis, Lewis, and Foreman could've defeated the great Ike is up there with some of the most nonsensical fluff this poor forum has been subjected to.

Ike wasn't a very good boxer skill-wise. He showed vs Tua he had no clue how to use angles or counter-punching vs a straight arrow target, while Rahman with average skills and a good jab showed soon after how easy one could outbox Tua. He looked like crap vs Byrd until his hail mary knockout, while guys such as Oquendo and the K brothers were able to solve the Byrd puzzle easier than Ike could. He was a strong guy but lacked real explosive snap in his shots, and his handspeed was nothing special.

I imagine we'd have a heap of people hypothesizing how Michael Grant would've knocked out Dempsey and Louis on the same night if he'd tragically died in a car accident after the Saverese fight

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I imagine we'd have a heap of people hypothesizing how Michael Grant would've knocked out Dempsey and Louis on the same night if he'd tragically died in a car accident after the Saverese fight

- You'd be at the top of the heap dismissing every fighter's chances against your favorite.

Ike has two wins over two of the era top contenders, with one of them being a future title holder. At 20-0, Ike had a far superior record to young 19-0 Clay on the eve of his Liston Challenge, his best victories being 50 yr old Moore and highly disputed wins over bloody 'enery and Jones. That just don't cut it.

Your propensity to hero worship is your downfall that leaves you smacked splotto on the top of your self described heap.

[dempseyfire]

I imagine we'd have a heap of people hypothesizing how Michael Grant would've knocked out Dempsey and Louis on the same night if he'd tragically died in a car accident after the Saverese fight

- You'd be at the top of the heap dismissing every fighter's chances against your favorite.

Ike has two wins over two of the era top contenders, with one of them being a future title holder. At 20-0, Ike had a far superior record to young 19-0 Clay on the eve of his Liston Challenge, his best victories being 50 yr old Moore and highly disputed wins over bloody 'enery and Jones. That just don't cut it.

Your propensity to hero worship is your downfall that leaves you smacked splotto on the top of your self described heap.

It'd be just as stupid arguing Clay beats Dempsey if he'd gone to jail in 1963. Poor BRR just doesn't seemt to get it.

[observer1]

this BRR actually granberry then?

Because he sounds like same troll

[witherspoon]

Why do I imagine that those who imagined Tua having his way with Rocky will have the President lording it over the Mauler....and vice versa?
Because what we have here is a generational division of a opinion vs a genuine boxing discussion.

- Too many of you drink the standard issue koolaide.

Dempsey is loads better than Rocky and actually has a history of beating Giants of his day, being known as Jack the Giant Killer. He also happens to be a fav of mine, but I don't go around making him out to be invincible.

The man himself had an humble opinion of himself yet had a fighting brain equivalent to Archie's boxing brain. Guy knew how to handle himself and wrote a primer for self defense that I hear some self defense schools use.

Ike was pure strength, nonstop aggression, stamina and chin, and anyone who thinks Ike is an easy day at the office is an dolt. Firpo is the closest thing to Ike that Jack fought and he was almost KOed in that fight.

Maybe you should ask why you would propose a hypothetical without setting the conditions?

Generally, Dempsey will be quicker, more experienced, but he can't go straight at a prime slab of muscle like he usually did, leaping inside for a quick flurry. That's leaping into Ike's wheelhouse. Potentially Jack could do it with the right game, but as it stands with what we know, I don't like his chances.

Maybe the Klitschos or Lewis could do it with size, strength, and boxing, maybe Foreman with slugging. Ali could run him around the ring, but ropadope clearly ineffective against Ike, and when did Ali show he could run for 12?

Joe Louis is another who laid back as often as not and waited for deadly counters. Ike was very special, yet still a work in progress. Lot of potential lost and no guarantees anybody is gonna beat him.

Hmm, nice arguments, clearly you have given this some thought, and you have some facts worth considering there.
But you have gone against popular opinion How dare you.
Troll, ban him until he repents.

[Seamus]

Being that this is the BOTP forum, I suppose you'd be on sound footing if you suggested Dempsey would score an early knockout.

[Djanders]

Dempsey would win over Ibeabuchi by knockout...in my opinion.

[BoxBuzz]

Well according to some here, it would appear that Ike and David may have settled at least one of the top 10 all time slots on the HW countdown with their historic record breaking (for amount of punches thrown) match. (Perhaps both have a place situated for them at these lofty heights?)

Ike Ibeabuchi, possibly slated in the single digits of all time HW's? It seems to have been alluded to in this very thread. I'll leave it to others to sort this out while I simply bask in the glow of this generously shared wisdom. I shall return to this cornucopia of knowledge time after time in order to further dispel any errant assumptions I may have in terms of these matters.

[Collins2000]

- Too many of you drink the standard issue koolaide.

Dempsey is loads better than Rocky ...

Hmm, nice arguments, clearly you have given this some thought, and you have some facts worth considering there.

Really?

His opening statements sound like the rantings of a drunken jackass to me. That's why I rarely get past the 2nd paragraph before I start to wonder if it is a wind-up...

See the thread on the Dempsy - Johnson 'fight' he started. I still can't figure out if he is having a laugh of if he is so delusional as to really believe it took place.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Well according to some here, it would appear that Ike and David may have settled at least one of the top 10 all time slots on the HW countdown with their historic record breaking (for amount of punches thrown) match. (Perhaps both have a place situated for them at these lofty heights?)

- Buzzy, it goes like this: Greater fighters have been beaten by their lessers all through boxing history.

It speaks volumes that some of you can't distinguish that simple fact of life from legacy, Leon being the poster child of that simple truth.

[dempseyfire]

Leon Spinks shows that lesser fighters can beat late 30s versions of great fighters who are shot and suffering from the beginning of Parkinsons.

[witherspoon]

- Too many of you drink the standard issue koolaide.

Dempsey is loads better than Rocky ...

Hmm, nice arguments, clearly you have given this some thought, and you have some facts worth considering there.

Really?

His opening statements sound like the rantings of a drunken jackass to me. That's why I rarely get past the 2nd paragraph before I start to wonder if it is a wind-up...

See the thread on the Dempsy - Johnson 'fight' he started. I still can't figure out if he is having a laugh of if he is so delusional as to really believe it took place.

I am not judging the guy on past posts, have not seen many of them - bar the Larry Holmes material.
I don't see why anyone should get jumped on for arguing that Ike, with size and power already, might have developed into someone who could take out a much smaller heavyweight, an all time great even.
Me, I'm a hopeless romantic. I have Dempsey Koing everyone from Louis to Tyson to Lewis. I want to believe that the old timers had an innate toughness that would overcome the physical advantages of todays giants. I usually keep that view to myself, because it would be argued off the forum by more sensible people who respect the scales and the tape measure.
They are entitled to their educated opinions and I am entitled to dream.
I won't degrade a person for that opinion, though i disagree. And i think, on this thread, the accusation of trolling was a little harsh.
We should all argue our views sensibly, and treat each other in a manner which befits our shared interest in the sweetest of sciences.

Peace and Love.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Leon Spinks shows that lesser fighters can beat late 30s versions of great fighters who are shot and suffering from the beginning of Parkinsons.

- Musta forgot that Leon not only beat the self proclaimed "Greatest," but the greatest fighter of all time held by large members of the boxing community and public at large.

Moreover, Ali was held to be the undefeated, invincible, heavyweight champ of the world and a prophet and messiah by a significant portion of the population. Joe Louis at the same age and a few more fights had similar physiologic declines and nobody claims he was suffering from strokes and heart disease.

Finally, unless Ali's prognosis has been updated, he has Parkinson's syndrome, not Parkinson's itself.

Leon was not just any lessor fighter, he was essentially an amateur/novice, not a heavyweight champion/contender. No heavyweight champion in history has ever dropped his belt to such a low caliber fighter as the rest of his career panned out. Let us not forget that your "Parkinson's afflicted" hero "won" the rematch, setting a touted "heavy record" and allowing him to retire "undefeated."

[BoxBuzz]

Well according to some here, it would appear that Ike and David may have settled at least one of the top 10 all time slots on the HW countdown with their historic record breaking (for amount of punches thrown) match. (Perhaps both have a place situated for them at these lofty heights?)

- Buzzy, it goes like this: Greater fighters have been beaten by their lessers all through boxing history.

It speaks volumes that some of you can't distinguish that simple fact of life from legacy, Leon being the poster child of that simple truth.

I agree with dempseyfire on this one.


Very creative....taking a "fact" and attempting spin/morph it into a "simple truth". We don't see much of that around here. Your statement is tantamount to building a house on a non parallel foundation and then claiming that on your property gravity is rendered retarded.

In the example you cited it was purely complacency vs diligence that created the anomaly. But it is hard to extrapolate any archetypal truth from this. However IF you DO have the ability to discern such truths, can you tell us what "simple truth" was revealed from the appearance of "Parachute man" in the second Bowe - Holyfield affair? Or the strange appearance of the fight ending "sense knot" on Rahman's forehead when he faced Evander? Other mysteries in search of "truth" might be Oliver McCall's strange behavior at the hands of Lennox Lewis in their second go round, and the granddaddy of them all...The Long Count!

Styles make fights it's true, and can create unpredictable variances and cause havoc when attempting to place your bets. All things being equal and when both fighters are giving their best. Bullshit on the other hand, tends to have a dependable and universally recognizable aroma.

Check that, bullshit is so outstandingly consistent, it actually smells the same on either hand.

[BoxBuzz]

Leon Spinks shows that lesser fighters can beat late 30s versions of great fighters who are shot and suffering from the beginning of Parkinsons.

- Musta forgot that Leon not only beat the self proclaimed "Greatest," but the greatest fighter of all time held by large members of the boxing community and public at large.

Moreover, Ali was held to be the undefeated, invincible, heavyweight champ of the world and a prophet and messiah by a significant portion of the population. Joe Louis at the same age and a few more fights had similar physiologic declines and nobody claims he was suffering from strokes and heart disease.

Finally, unless Ali's prognosis has been updated, he has Parkinson's syndrome, not Parkinson's itself.

Leon was not just any lessor fighter, he was essentially an amateur/novice, not a heavyweight champion/contender. No heavyweight champion in history has ever dropped his belt to such a low caliber fighter as the rest of his career panned out. Let us not forget that your "Parkinson's afflicted" hero "won" the rematch, setting a touted "heavy record" and allowing him to retire "undefeated."

You do have that right, he appears to be "punch drunk" and not genetically affected by the disease. Much like Joe Louis.
China chinned fighters seldom suffer from such a fate, A KO can be merciful. A granite chin can be a curse.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

You do have that right, he appears to be "punch drunk" and not genetically affected by the disease. Much like Joe Louis.
China chinned fighters seldom suffer from such a fate, A KO can be merciful. A granite chin can be a curse.

Check that, bullshit is so outstandingly consistent, it actually smells the same on either hand.

- It appears the fumes emanating from my mitts have made you drunk from my punches.

Ali's classic M/O BTW, dizzy their noggins up outside and then swoop in to lower the boom....... 8)

[Robinson]

I think Ike would have been beaten by the likes of Lewis perhaps
had they met. Sadly Ike's idiocy robbed us of that, and left
him forever in limbo as a 'could have been'.

As for him versus Dempsey. Dempsey is more the man,
hard match. But Dempsey has some losses in his past that make
one quesion his ability against a power puncher with good size.

Ike hits harder than Jim Flynn and can box better than some
of the other men that Dempsey dropped the wins to earlier
on.

Ike is not a Willard big guy, so assuming Dempseys abilities
over him does not ensure victory over a talented big man lile
Ike.

I like to see opinions, but not absolute claims free of any real
argument.

[Robinson]

And while I am aware that the Dempsey -Flynn fight is
considered to be a 'work'. It makes one question how
many of Dempsey's wins were also as such.

In any case for all of his faults and lack of credibility
as a man, Ike never had a worked fight.

[dempseyfire]

And while I am aware that the Dempsey -Flynn fight is
considered to be a 'work'. It makes one question how
many of Dempsey's wins were also as such.

In any case for all of his faults and lack of credibility
as a man, Ike never had a worked fight.

Bias creating ridiculous assumptions. You no better know Dempsey had fixed fights than Ike did. The Flynn fight is one no-one will ever really know the truth to, but that fight had several particular circumstances to it. There has never been any proof nor even claims of Dempsey's other big wins being fixed besides Willard falsly complaining of loaded gloves.

[Robinson]

So what is worse....

Ko1 Flynn ?
or Dempsey jobbed the fight for cash..

[dempseyfire]

There is also the story that Dempsey came into the fight with a badly damaged hand and was simply not prepared to fight. Or that b/c he was not in good financial straits at that point maybe he did throw it . . . no-one knows for sure. Doesn't mean he's suddenly throwing every fight left and right. He didn't have a fancy contract with Golden Boy and a team of trainers making sure he was ready for each outing. To dismiss the context of history is to be blind. Dempsey's record of not having another knockout loss in over 80 fights is good enough for me.