Hollyfield v Ali

[Eric the Viking]

Frazier could not take Foreman?s power, Ali had to wait till Foreman burned his self out before he took a forward step.
Hollyfield stands in front of Foreman and Tyson.

Dude, to compare the prime Foreman that fought Frazier and Ali to the middle-aged one who fought valiantly in losing to a prime Holyfield SEVENTEEN YEARS LATER - that's just nuts.

And Ali didn't just "wait" for Foreman to burn himself out - he's the one who stood right in front of prime Foreman, taking a massive amount of punishment and continually taunting Foreman to goad him into punching himself out, and all the while landing wicked, incredibly accurate combinations in between Foreman's assaults. And you think Holy standing in front of a faded, one-dimensional post-prison Tyson was somehow better? I think you're gonna find yourself in a vanishingly small minority on that one.

Damn, that's some stunningly ignorant shit you've trotted out here.

[dempseyfire]

Frazier could not take Foreman?s power, Ali had to wait till Foreman burned his self out before he took a forward step.
Hollyfield stands in front of Foreman and Tyson.

Dude, to compare the prime Foreman that fought Frazier and Ali to the middle-aged one who fought valiantly in losing to a prime Holyfield SEVENTEEN YEARS LATER - that's just nuts.

And Ali didn't just "wait" for Foreman to burn himself out - he's the one who stood right in front of prime Foreman, taking a massive amount of punishment and continually taunting Foreman to goad him into punching himself out, and all the while landing wicked, incredibly accurate combinations in between Foreman's assaults. And you think Holy standing in front of a faded, one-dimensional post-prison Tyson was somehow better? I think you're gonna find yourself in a vanishingly small minority on that one.

Damn, that's some stunningly ignorant shit you've trotted out here.

LOL exactly. "Let Foreman burn himself out" ??? And how exactly did he do that??? By standing flat-footed and letting Foreman wail on him!!
Ali sqeaks by Norton?? Fine, Holyfield loses to Michael Moorer. I'll take Norton over Moorer anyday of the week. Actually, I'll take Doug Jones to beat Moorer as well. You certainly haven't seen much of Doug Jones and Ken Norton to judge. They were both leagues ahead of Bert Cooper, Vaughn Bean, and Bobby Czyz-three guys Evander looked less then stellar against.
You want to bring up Leon Spinks?? two words-John Ruiz.
Holyfield stood in front of an old Foreman and Mike Tyson . . . . and that's supposed to be more impressive then taking the best of . . . and the list goes on: George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Earnie Shavers, Ron Lyle, Oscar Bonavena etc???? The comparison is laughable.
Holyfield is actually one of my favorite fighters and I consider him a top 15 Heavyweight of all time. Difference is, Ali is a clear top 5 heavyweight of all time.

[Professor X]

Uhm, Holyfield and Ali have the best resumes in heavyweight championship history, 1 and 1a, and it's a quite natural thing, not laughable, to discuss it. Everybody knows it's true, except for those still living in the '70's. "Have a nice day"

Doug Jones is a fornicating pimple compared to Michael Moorer where the history of boxing is concerned!
Quarry, Bonavena, Norton, Shavers and Lyle, all from the heavyweight "gilded age", are better boxers than Holyfield? Yeah, right, and Arturo Gatti is a better boxer than Henry Armstrong because, you know, Hank fought in the'30's and boxers today are better trained and stronger, you know, and stuff like that.

Let's break down Holyfield vs Frazier, shall we? Tangibles and intangibles:

Height: Holyfield 6-2, Frazier 5-11

Weight: Holyfield 215, Frazier 205

Reach: Holyfield 77", Frazier 73"

Chin: Holyfield (Frazier left in a bloody heap from Foremans power...Holyfield barely sneezed at Foremans power...and Holyfield held him up, at that...end of story)

Heart/Bravery: Holyfield (entered HV's just as the super heavyweight era started...in a league of his own...had his right ear chewed up and spit out, and then turned his left ear to Tyson...was seen laughing in the locker-room afterwards)

Skills: Holyfield (two-fisted, better balance, flexibility and footwork...better jab...faster)

Strength: Hmmm...Holyfield (I don't think Frazier could carry Lewis around the ring for 24 rounds...not even the younger Frazier that beat Quarry and Bonavena)

Evander Holyfield KO 8 Joe Frazier

Back to the point:

Ali wins two of three over Holyfield

Holyfield, a bit of a phenom, is truly one of the great lb 4 lb fighters in boxing history--he is to cruiserweight and heavyweight what Ray Robinson is to welterweight and middleweight--he had it all, for a long time--but his prime was at cruiserweight. Holyfield was nearly always an old heavyweight (he regained the belts from Bowe when he, Holyfield, was 31 yrs old...and his prime was already gone)

Muhammad Ali is also one of the greatest lb 4 lb fighters in boxing history--didn't know a big man could move like that--but his prime was at heavyweight.

[dempseyfire]

Uhm, Holyfield and Ali have the best resumes in heavyweight championship history, 1 and 1a, and it's a quite natural thing, not laughable, to discuss it. Everybody knows that.

Doug Jones is a fornicating pimple compared to Michael Moorer where the history of boxing is concerned!
Quarry, Bonavena, Norton, Shavers and Lyle, all from the heavyweight "gilded age", are better boxers than Holyfield? Yeah, right, and Arturo Gatti is a better boxer than Henry Armstrong because, you know, Hank fought in the'30's and boxers today are better trained and stronger, you know, and stuff like that.

Let's break down Holyfield vs Frazier, shall we? Tangibles and intangibles:

Height: Holyfield 6-2, Frazier 5-11

Weight: Holyfield 215, Frazier 205

Reach: Holyfield 77", Frazier 73"

Chin: Holyfield (Frazier left in a bloody heap from Foremans power...Holyfield barely sneezed at Foremans power...and Holyfield held him up, at that...end of story)

Heart/Bravery: Holyfield (entered HV's just as the super heavyweight era started...in a league of his own...had his right ear chewed up and spit out, and then turned his left ear to Tyson...was seen laughing in the locker-room afterwards)

Skills: Holyfield (two-fisted, better balance, flexibility and footwork...better jab...faster)

Strength: Hmmm...Holyfield (I don't think Frazier could carry Lewis around the ring for 24 rounds...not even the younger Frazier that beat Quarry and Bonavena)

Evander Holyfield KO 8 Joe Frazier

Back to the point:

Ali wins two of three over Holyfield

Holyfield, a bit of a phenom, is truly one of the great lb 4 lb fighters in boxing history--he is to cruiserweight and heavyweight what Ray Robinson is to welterweight and middleweight--he had it all, for a long time--but his prime was at cruiserweight.

Muhammad Ali is also one of the greatest lb 4 lb fighters in boxing history--didn't know a big man could move like that--but his prime was at heavyweight.

If you hd read my post, I was talking about Lyle and Shavers in terms of punching power, and no doubt Shavers and Lyle were harder punchers then your beloved 'super HWs' Bowe and Lewis.
The fatc that you said Holyfield had a bigger heart and was braver then Holyfield shows your complete and utter ignorance. B/c Tyson bit off his ear??? WTF??? Both were tremondous warriors-Frazier would fight on until he would literally collapse. I would give them equal pts for heart and bravery certainly.
Again, to compare the Foreman that Holyfield fought to the Foreman that Frazier fought is LAUGHABLE. Sure a 40-something Foreman still had power, but do you know about the relations of speed to punching??? How a punch is much harder and likely to carry knockout power if it's coming fast then coming slow from a mile away?? A prime Foreman was in better shape, much faster, had a much higher work-rate, and was an overall more vicious person who wanted to hurt people in the ring. Grandpa Foreman who fought Evander just went in there with his slow slow punches to try to win the title back, not cause injury to anyone.
You said Evander 'carried' Lewis around the ring??? I think it was the other way around. Of course Holyfield is probably stronger then Frazier-he's not as strong as Bonavena though, and Joe had no problems moving him around. You say he had better skills-don't know where you got better footwork and balance from-both had very different styles and were very skilled. I don't see how you can give a big edge to either skill-wise. Their handspeed is about the same. And you're tale of the tape is pointless too-so Holyfield had a small height and reach advantage to Frazier-so did practically everyone Frazier fought!!! And both in their primes weighed from the low 200s up to around 215.
Holyfield NEVER KOs Joe Frazier-not in a million years.

[Sweet Scientist]

Uhm, Holyfield and Ali have the best resumes in heavyweight championship history, 1 and 1a, and it's a quite natural thing, not laughable, to discuss it. Everybody knows it's true, except for those still living in the '70's.

Did you ever hear of Joe Louis? Holyfield has a better resume than Joe Louis? Jack Dempsey? Gene Tunney? Jack Johnson? Larry Holmes? Muhammad Ali?

How much of Holyfield's '#1 resume' is based on his fights with Bowe, Lewis & Moorer?...7 fights...2 wins 4 losses, one bogus draw that was really a loss...

Hey, don't get me wrong...every great fighter has losses...just seems that the "#1 resume" heavyweight would have had more than 2 wins in those 7 fights...

Maybe those fights tend to improve Riddick Bowe's & Lennox Lewis' resumes...raising them to a level above Holyfield...seeing as they (together) beat Holyfield 4 out of 5?

[elmersalsa]

This is a very tough fight for Ali because Holyfield like Ali had one of the greatest grits, heart and determination. In the last 25 years, thre have not been a heavyweight or a fighter that had more heart than Evander.

Also like Ali, Evander had tremendous speed and good boxing skills when he had to use them. But I think that Ali had more speed than Evander but not by much. Both were very durable fighters that fought 'til the end of time.

But I got to go with Ali on this one because he will use that speedy jab, which was one of boxing's best. Both of them seem to tire at the end of the fight but their pride and heart would not let them quit one bit. Ali by a 15 round close decision. And since he was the moneymaker for the promoters, the judges will also give him the nod.

[tonyevs]

Holyfield is one of your fave fighters yet he only makes your top 15 heavyweight? You must really like him….what would you rate a fighter you thought was only good..in your top 9600?.
Where did the rope-a-dope come from? Oh yeah from Ali standing in front of Foreman mid ring waiting for him to burn out…yeah.
And yes Foreman and Tyson were past their best when Evander fought them, but they could still punch as hard, another saying you may or not have heard of is-The last thing a fighter loses is his punch- or don`t any of you boxing experts remember that one either?
Michael Moorer whilst being a fat modern heavy was a very dangerous fighter a couple of stone lighter, but heavies being bigger he bulked up also..Doug Jones beaten him….how knowledgeable you are..shame boxing is not your subject.
Holyfield has been around much longer than he should have for many years, the fight in which he had a heart scare was only the time really picked up on it, but he could still perform with great skill and heart.
Did Ali dominate Frazier in any of their fights, did he dominate Foreman or even Norton, I will not mention Liston for a couple of reasons that nobody can really answer, but the thing is these fights tend to be highlighted when people talk of how great Ali was, but would any of these fighters been the same against, say Bowe..Bowe would have blown away Frazier just like Foreman did, and Norton would have probably gone the same, and Bowe would have withstood all Foreman could of given and stopped him later on, Holyfield stood with Bowe..remember..ask your dads he may have it on tape.
Anyway that’s enough to keep you off your skateboards for awhile…a little help to you youngsters though..look at the video of the fight not just what your dads tell you about it…..and don`t forget to get him to point out which one is Ali though first.

[dempseyfire]

Holyfield is one of your fave fighters yet he only makes your top 15 heavyweight? You must really like him….what would you rate a fighter you thought was only good..in your top 9600?.
Where did the rope-a-dope come from? Oh yeah from Ali standing in front of Foreman mid ring waiting for him to burn out…yeah.
And yes Foreman and Tyson were past their best when Evander fought them, but they could still punch as hard, another saying you may or not have heard of is-The last thing a fighter loses is his punch- or don`t any of you boxing experts remember that one either?
Michael Moorer whilst being a fat modern heavy was a very dangerous fighter a couple of stone lighter, but heavies being bigger he bulked up also..Doug Jones beaten him….how knowledgeable you are..shame boxing is not your subject.
Holyfield has been around much longer than he should have for many years, the fight in which he had a heart scare was only the time really picked up on it, but he could still perform with great skill and heart.
Did Ali dominate Frazier in any of their fights, did he dominate Foreman or even Norton, I will not mention Liston for a couple of reasons that nobody can really answer, but the thing is these fights tend to be highlighted when people talk of how great Ali was, but would any of these fighters been the same against, say Bowe..Bowe would have blown away Frazier just like Foreman did, and Norton would have probably gone the same, and Bowe would have withstood all Foreman could of given and stopped him later on, Holyfield stood with Bowe..remember..ask your dads he may have it on tape.
Anyway that’s enough to keep you off your skateboards for awhile…a little help to you youngsters though..look at the video of the fight not just what your dads tell you about it…..and don`t forget to get him to point out which one is Ali though first.

Bowe got blown away the first time he faced a true power-hitter in Golota. Many think he lost to a cracked out Tony Tubbs. Besides Holyfield his record is so packed with cream puffs you'd think he owned a bakery. Bowe beats Frazier and Foreman?-keep dreaming pal.

Have you seen any film of Doug Jones at all?? Have you heard other boxing trainers and fighters WHO WERE THERE talk about him? Doug Jones was an excellent fighter. Don't judge a fighter when you know jack shit about him. And Clay clearly beat him anyway.
OK FOR THE LAST TIME, when you are older you can still hit hard, but without the speed or energy of a younger man, YOU WILL NOT hit as hard as you did when you were twenty years younger, and overall the extra weight and toll of age will ensure your fighting ability is not near what it was. This is basic science. Go back and talk to your high school biology teacher about it. To say Holyfield can survive a prime Foreman b/c he stood up to a 43 yr old Foreman is plain stupid.
You're right, Ali didn't dominate Norton, Frazier, or Foreman. Holyfield didn't dominate Bowe, Mercer, or Lewis either . . . . what is your point, youngster????

[TheRiverCityHippy]

is this the same riddick bowe that was getting his ass handed to him (note the american-ism i threw in there) not once but twice by andrew golota??
golota beats him (or should have) but the prime george foreman (who ali faced) doesnt??
then again the `prime` issue with you is a bit clouded and ambiguous because according to you the 1990`s george foreman is comparable to the 1970`s version because he still retains a punch.
well in your first post on this thread you said that (if we looked at this sensibly) evander, amongst other qualities has too much of a PUNCH for ali, well seems this is the last thing to go and proceeding with your logic it seems that john ruiz is one bad motha!!
james toney? greatest heavyweight of all time, must be, not even bowe, lewis or tyson did that to holyfield.

[Sweet Scientist]

This is a very tough fight for Ali because Holyfield like Ali had one of the greatest grits, heart and determination. In the last 25 years, thre have not been a heavyweight or a fighter that had more heart than Evander.

Also like Ali, Evander had tremendous speed and good boxing skills when he had to use them. But I think that Ali had more speed than Evander but not by much. Both were very durable fighters that fought 'til the end of time.

But I got to go with Ali on this one because he will use that speedy jab, which was one of boxing's best. Both of them seem to tire at the end of the fight but their pride and heart would not let them quit one bit. Ali by a 15 round close decision. And since he was the moneymaker for the promoters, the judges will also give him the nod.

....please...stop screaming!

[Professor X]

Man, I would hate to see '70's icon Little Joe Frazier take an uppercut on the chin from Bowe or Lewis (and Ruiz would beat on Leon Spinks worse than even Dwight Qawi did BTW). I mean, get real, dempseyfire.

Foreman was bigger and stronger (247 lbs) when he fought Holyfield, dempseyfire. And as you know, some people think he was a better boxer as well, with better stamina, strength, smarts and pacing (I disagree with that, even if early Foreman threw ridiculously wide punches...just absurd...now there was a guy that could never be heavyweight champion for very long).

Nobody discusses Frazier in boxing where matters of the heart are concerned. It's the usual: Ali, Greb, Marciano, Holyfield etc. Holyfield routinely fought guys that outweighed him by at least 20 lbs. when he was well past his prime.

Holyfield was bigger, and he was definitely better lb 4 lb than Frazier...I won't even argue that...enough already. Holyfield would put too many fast, heavy combinations together for a plodding guy that takes punches like Joe Frazier did...that's it in a nutshell. Holyfield wouldn't need one million years to KO Frazier...he'd need eight rounds (see Holyfield-Qawi II or Holyfield-Tyson I&II...it's pretty obvious).

You seem like a smart guy, Sweet Scientist, but I still disagree with nearly everything you opine, at least on this subject I do.

Well, it's been fun, dempseyfire. Next time a heavyweight/boxer like Holyfield comes along in about 25 years or so, PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE 70's, and you might not miss what's happening right in front of you. Have a Nice Day

[Tantum]

is this the same riddick bowe that was getting his ass handed to him (note the american-ism i threw in there) not once but twice by andrew golota??
golota beats him (or should have) but the prime george foreman (who ali faced) doesnt??
then again the `prime` issue with you is a bit clouded and ambiguous because according to you the 1990`s george foreman is comparable to the 1970`s version because he still retains a punch.
well in your first post on this thread you said that (if we looked at this sensibly) evander, amongst other qualities has too much of a PUNCH for ali, well seems this is the last thing to go and proceeding with your logic it seems that john ruiz is one bad motha!!
james toney? greatest heavyweight of all time, must be, not even bowe, lewis or tyson did that to holyfield.

Riddick Bowe's speech was slurred bad years before he fought Golota.... Do not compare a prime fighter with a shot fighter.

[Hardhitters11]

Ali would have boxed Holy's head off and beaten him with very little trouble...

[J]

Ali would have boxed Holy's head off and beaten him with very little trouble...

yeah for fecks sake guys, if lewis ran rings round holyfield twice imagine what ali would have done. silly thread.

[dempseyfire]

Man, I would hate to see '70's icon Little Joe Frazier take an uppercut on the chin from Bowe or Lewis (and Ruiz would beat on Leon Spinks worse than even Dwight Qawi did BTW). I mean, get real, dempseyfire.

Foreman was bigger and stronger (247 lbs) when he fought Holyfield, dempseyfire. And as you know, some people think he was a better boxer as well, with better stamina, strength, smarts and pacing (I disagree with that, even if early Foreman threw ridiculously wide punches...just absurd...now there was a guy that could never be heavyweight champion for very long).

Nobody discusses Frazier in boxing where matters of the heart are concerned. It's the usual: Ali, Greb, Marciano, Holyfield etc. Holyfield routinely fought guys that outweighed him by at least 20 lbs. when he was well past his prime.

Holyfield was bigger, and he was definitely better lb 4 lb than Frazier...I won't even argue that...enough already. Holyfield would put too many fast, heavy combinations together for a plodding guy that takes punches like Joe Frazier did...that's it in a nutshell. Holyfield wouldn't need one million years to KO Frazier...he'd need eight rounds (see Holyfield-Qawi II or Holyfield-Tyson I&II...it's pretty obvious).

You seem like a smart guy, Sweet Scientist, but I still disagree with nearly everything you opine, at least on this subject I do.

Well, it's been fun, dempseyfire. Next time a heavyweight/boxer like Holyfield comes along in about 25 years or so, PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE 70's, and you might not miss what's happening right in front of you. Have a Nice Day

Foreman was 'bigger and stronger' Take another look. That was all blubber. Man I should get on the Foreman 'strength for cheeseburgers' diet it sounds like a winner . . . . . .
Are you suggesting John Ruiz is better then Dwight Qawi??? OKAY . . .
You seem to think b/c Bowe was bigger then a Bonavena or Foreman or Lyle that he hit harder. You are sadly mistaken. Frazier would TKO Bowe within 8 rounds from body shots, with that soft body of his.
Frazier is constantly talked about as having one of the biggest hearts ever. Have you seen any of the Ali-Frazier fights?? Frazier-Bonavena 1?? The guy's fighting style was built on heart. And you say he was slow and plodding. Watch some tapes of a prime Frazier my son before you spew off such garbage. Jeez . . . . .
And Evander Holyfield was a great fighter. But a top 5 all time HW like you seem to think??? . . . .no

[TheRiverCityHippy]

is this the same riddick bowe that was getting his ass handed to him (note the american-ism i threw in there) not once but twice by andrew golota??
golota beats him (or should have) but the prime george foreman (who ali faced) doesnt??
then again the `prime` issue with you is a bit clouded and ambiguous because according to you the 1990`s george foreman is comparable to the 1970`s version because he still retains a punch.
well in your first post on this thread you said that (if we looked at this sensibly) evander, amongst other qualities has too much of a PUNCH for ali, well seems this is the last thing to go and proceeding with your logic it seems that john ruiz is one bad motha!!
james toney? greatest heavyweight of all time, must be, not even bowe, lewis or tyson did that to holyfield.

Riddick Bowe's speech was slurred bad years before he fought Golota.... Do not compare a prime fighter with a shot fighter.

he beat holyfield, gonzales and hide in the 12 months before he fought golota. shot? erm okay

[Sweet Scientist]

You seem like a smart guy, Sweet Scientist, but I still disagree with nearly everything you opine, at least on this subject I do.

That's ok..."There are none so blind as those who shall not see"...

You're in a very small minority...those who think Holyfield could beat Ali or Frazier...I especially like your statisitical comparison between Holyfield and Smokin' Joe...everybody Joe Frazier fought was bigger than he was...Do you really think slight reach and weight advantage makes all the difference?...If so, then why didn't you statisitically compare Holyfield to Ali? Because Ali would edge him out ? Holyfield never got hit with a left hook as good as Frazier's...Holyfield never had to deal with someone who swarms like Frazier...Holyfield never had to deal with a young Ali, who could move on his feet, keep a jab in your face, and fire off 5 and 6 punch combinations in the blur of an eye...and...avoid power shots just by leaning away (quickly, of course)....AND, by the way, both Ali and Frazier could take a punch (in case you never saw them)...Holyfield would NEVER have knocked out Ali...and would have been KO'd himself before he could get to Frazier...

And, again, how much of Holyfield's "#1 resume" is based on his fights with Bowe, Lewis & Moorer??? 7 fights---2 wins---1 bogus draw that was really a loss...that's a winning percentage of .286...

Subtract Moorer and you get 1 win out of 5 fights (Bowe & Lewis)...

This is absolutely NOT "#1 resume" material...sorry..[/i]

[tonyevs]

Bowe was past his best against Golota and did not get blown away if my memory serves me correct, Golota blew it with low blows..remember.
Many believe Tubbs beat Bowe..many more believe Elvis is alive…have you seen him also?
And as for Frazier, he struggled against 15 1/2stone fighters who could punch..Foreman weighed just under this when they fought and some on this post may not know, but George blew him away, and another mediocre Argentinian put Frazier on his arse you know.

For sure Foreman did not have the all out style he had as a youngster, but he had experience when he was older, and a great defence I may add, and a bit of each of these things would have served him better when he faced each of the fighters we are talking about, though sadly for George these things were different parts of different era’s he fought in.

Heavyweights are bigger now than in the 70`s just like they in turn were bigger than the heavyweights of the 40`s and Holyfield whilst being naturally smaller than most of the modern heavies still stood with the bigger men, sure he got tagged and almost dropped against inferior opposition, but guess what..so did Ali, and once or twice he actually touched down….yes…it does happen.

In my opinion there are two categories of people who are harder to educate, the very young-`WWF wrestling is acting, it’s not real`
And the very old `you can drink tea from a mug`.
Now I may have taken some of the people here as youngsters, and I apologize, …perhaps one or two fall into the second category.

Whilst I am not a fan of Ali, I can see he was special, but I just happen to think Evander would have had the beating of him.
I am not so ignorant as to not know Ali was one of the top heavyweights in the history of the division, I just happen to think that like most sports the sportsmen and women evolve, they get better as the sport evolves.
Johnson, Louis, Ali and Holyfield. Each were very special in their era, though there could be a very good argument to saying each of the four great fighters I listed get progressively better.

[dempseyfire]

Bowe was past his best against Golota and did not get blown away if my memory serves me correct, Golota blew it with low blows..remember.
Many believe Tubbs beat Bowe..many more believe Elvis is alive…have you seen him also?
And as for Frazier, he struggled against 15 1/2stone fighters who could punch..Foreman weighed just under this when they fought and some on this post may not know, but George blew him away, and another mediocre Argentinian put Frazier on his arse you know.

For sure Foreman did not have the all out style he had as a youngster, but he had experience when he was older, and a great defence I may add, and a bit of each of these things would have served him better when he faced each of the fighters we are talking about, though sadly for George these things were different parts of different era’s he fought in.

Heavyweights are bigger now than in the 70`s just like they in turn were bigger than the heavyweights of the 40`s and Holyfield whilst being naturally smaller than most of the modern heavies still stood with the bigger men, sure he got tagged and almost dropped against inferior opposition, but guess what..so did Ali, and once or twice he actually touched down….yes…it does happen.

In my opinion there are two categories of people who are harder to educate, the very young-`WWF wrestling is acting, it’s not real`
And the very old `you can drink tea from a mug`.
Now I may have taken some of the people here as youngsters, and I apologize, …perhaps one or two fall into the second category.

Whilst I am not a fan of Ali, I can see he was special, but I just happen to think Evander would have had the beating of him.
I am not so ignorant as to not know Ali was one of the top heavyweights in the history of the division, I just happen to think that like most sports the sportsmen and women evolve, they get better as the sport evolves.
Johnson, Louis, Ali and Holyfield. Each were very special in their era, though there could be a very good argument to saying each of the four great fighters I listed get progressively better.

The 1990s wasn't full of good big heavy guys in shape-they were heavy guys not in shape.

Mercer was weighing in the 230s and 240s when in true condition he should've been weighing 215-220. Same with Hasim Rahman. Michael Moorer was 205-210 lbs in shape. They all weighed more then Joe Frazier but they couldn't go a hard 10 rounds, let alone 15. Did Riddick Bowe or Lennox Lewis ever go 15 rounds??? Do you think Lennox Lewis, who was huffing and hugging his way through the late rounds in several fights, would've had success in 15 rounders??? You are blind if you think so. Fighters in the 70s were lighter for the simple fact that they had better discipline and knew a 6'1 guy weighing 235, who might look all beefy at the weigh in, would have a snow ball's chance in hell surviving a long hard fight against a guy in great condition such as Frazier or Ali. You don't get it, Holyfield's size and stamina were WHY he had so much success-b/c he was one of the few guys who didn't eat their way out of contention and who had a great work ethic. Being 6'2, 210 lbs of muscle in the HW division is not a liability. It is an assett. That was how an old washed up Holyfield had so much success against the best 'super HW' of the 90s Lennox Lewis in their 2nd fight, b/c Lewis was tired by the middle rounds. Imagine a prime Holyfield vs Lummox.
Y

[Professor X]

You're wasting your brain-cells, Sweet Scientist. Keep your nose out of it. You lost out when you said Holyfield would be second-tier in the 70's. You're out of the debate.

Let me back up a bit and explain the exact meaning of the word "could", in the context of this setting, to the anal retentive dempseyfire:

The only boxers that "could" KO or TKO Frazier in the 70's were Ali and Foreman.

The only boxers that "could" KO or TKO Frazier from the 90's are Holyfield, Lewis and Tyson with Bowe standing an outside chance.

Let's do a Buster Mathis vs Ray Mercer thread.

[tonyevs]

Yes I see your point about the modern heavies.
The fact is there are no such things as 15rounders anymore.
The argument about the ideal size for a heavyweight is an argument that most have an idea and opinion on.
Look at Lennox Lewis when he blew Golota away, and Joe Louis when he blew Schmeling away in the re-match. Two hugely different weight fighters, both awesome in their displays.

On the Holyfield v Ali, can we agree to disagree

[Sweet Scientist]

You're wasting your brain-cells, Sweet Scientist. Keep your nose out of it. You lost out when you said Holyfield would be second-tier in the 70's. You're out of the debate.

Yeah, right...

AND...for the third time on this thread, I will again ask for a response to the following point: How much of Holyfield's "#1 resume" is based on the Bowe, Lewis & Moorer fights? 7 fights, 2 wins!!! Based on those 7 fights, he was 2nd tier in the '90's (stop screaming...I said 'based on those fights'!)

Holyfield would be 2nd tier in the 70's...

Would not have beaten Ali...would not have beaten Frazier...would not have beaten a young Foreman...would not have beaten Holmes...would have struggled big time against Young & Norton....that all equals 2nd tier...because to be on the 1st tier in the '70's, you'd have to be able to beat those guys...period. He might have cut some of those guys though...with the top of his head, one of his most dangerous weapons!

AND...this is not really a 'debate'...

We're all just trying to educate your obvious Gen-X ass....

[dempseyfire]

Yes I see your point about the modern heavies.
The fact is there are no such things as 15rounders anymore.
The argument about the ideal size for a heavyweight is an argument that most have an idea and opinion on.
Look at Lennox Lewis when he blew Golota away, and Joe Louis when he blew Schmeling away in the re-match. Two hugely different weight fighters, both awesome in their displays.

On the Holyfield v Ali, can we agree to disagree

That's fine with me.

Just remember, Max Schmeling was a proven great and former champ who came that night to fight.
Golota was a talented but extreme nutcase (no pun intended) who mentally collapsed in every fight with a good puncher he's ever been in. Just some food for thought if we're comparing great career victories

[tonyevs]

[Professor X]

[quote="Sweet Scientist"][quote="Professor X"]You're wasting your brain-cells, Sweet Scientist. Keep your nose out of it. You lost out when you said Holyfield would be second-tier in the 70's. You're out of the debate.

[/quote]

Yeah, right...

AND...for the third time on this thread, I will again ask for a response to the following point: How much of Holyfield's "#1 resume" is based on the Bowe, Lewis & Moorer fights? 7 fights, 2 wins!!! Based on those 7 fights, he was 2nd tier in the '90's (stop screaming...I said 'based on those fights'!)

Holyfield would be 2nd tier in the 70's...

Would not have beaten Ali...would not have beaten Frazier...would not have beaten a young Foreman...would not have beaten Holmes...would have struggled big time against Young & Norton....that all equals 2nd tier...because to be on the 1st tier in the '70's, you'd have to be able to beat those guys...period. He might have cut some of those guys though...with the top of his head, one of his most dangerous weapons!

AND...this is not really a 'debate'...

We're all just trying to educate your obvious Gen-X ass.... [/quote]

"...obvious Gen-X ass..."? Oh, no, Sweet Scientist. Don't assume: that makes you an ass. I don't know why I would even bother with you on this subject. You have blinders on...you won't hear it... but because you asked, listen up:

There's no shame at all in Holyfield losing his first fight at the age of 29--especially after moving up in weight-- to a young, motivated, slim 235 lbs, Futch trained Bowe (Ali lost his first fight at the age of 29 to a Futch trained Frazier...do you not see the similarities?) In the rematch, when Holyfield was 31, it would have taken a miracle for Bowe to escape without being KO'd by Holyfield (Bowe was saved by the bell in the fifth)...enter fan-man. The third fight, Holyfield had hepatitis, and he probably shouldn't have gone through with it--Holyfield looked really bad after the first round, and it was't from anything that Bowe had yet done to him--especially considering that Bowe was dirtier than Tyson even, ear-bites excluded. That's the only time that I've seen Holyfield take a rest from an opponents foul (Bowe was deducted a point for low blows...he should have been deducted more): he took one minute, not enough, ever the warrior, and then jumped back in too soon (only to take more combination low blows). Whatever. Bowe was toast, after those three fights...stick a fork in HIM, not Holyfield. Holyfield, proving he was as durable as they come, fought on from there, well past his prime, with succesful results. Or: To un-muddy the water's and clear things up a bit --The Holyfield (34 yrs old) that fought Tyson is better than the Ali (34 yrs old) that fought Young IMO.

Next up: Michael Moorer