Henry Cooper Criticises Haye

[Khaosai-Galaxy]

Henry Cooper would still be world champion but for the split glove, even at 75.

Look he earns a fish supper and a pint every night spouting this stuff. I often wonder whether he';d have been more gracious about everyone had he got the nod versus Bugner retired on his own terms etc.

His bitterness knows no limits.

He only weighed 4stone 9 when he fought Ali you know.

The soft landing for Ali, was a new strand of his argument for being better than GOAT.

He seems to overlook his other drubbings at world-class level. Didn't Ingo Bingo starch him? That wasn't cuts was it?

And his manager ran a mile from chalenging Liston.
And didn't Patterson do to him what Liston did to Patterson? And how much heavier was Patterson than Cooper? Half a stone -- max.

Anyway, I'm not sure he's bitter. I thought the interview came across just fine. He said "I don't like to see this stuff in boxing, but I think Haye's a great fighter who looks good."

Not too much wrong with that, even though I personally thought the T-Shirt was great, from a psychological point of view.

He has very much become boxing's Fred Trueman for the new millennium, no?

"in my day"

"eeeeh i dont know whats going off out theeeyer"

etc

Unfortunately for Cooper he is neither a world class ex pro as Trueman and Boycott are (were), or genuine comedy turns as Trueman and Boycott were (are)



"Ah'll sithee"

I prefer Boycott to Trueman.

BUT!

I don't know if anyone ever used to listen to Hawksbee and Jacobs in the early days of Talk Sport, but they had this section where they'd found a record of Trueman narrating his autobiography, or something.

There was a moment when a toffee nosed, ancient MCC grandee tried to give him some advice when bowling in the nets at Lord's. Weeeelll, Freddie didn't take kindly to that, and promptly asked the chap exactly how many test wickets he had taken. Shocked that the working class Northerner wasn't tugging his forlock, the MCC man give Trueman a sharp rebuke, at which stage Trueman said "I'm afraid I got so angry that I punched this man in the mouth and the poor chap had to be carried away."

Firey.

Ther was another time when the less impressive side of Trueman was on display – when he took the huff at a TMS gag.

It was his turn to read out the letters, and Aggers, or someone, told him to pay special attention to a letter relating to the side-on style Trueman was always rattling on about. According to Trueman – and contrary to evidence – no bowler could swing the ball properly with a chest on action, and the side-on stance was the only way to bowl consistently well. He was always slagging off perfectly good bowlers for their poor action -- poor by no other measurement other than it wasn't classically side on. Anyyywwwwaaaay… Trueman was handed this letter, which was from a listener who had been fired from his club side for using “the side on stance Trueman always recommended”. Trueman read out the letter about how the writer had listened to Trueman and implimented the style to the protests of his team mates and eventual dropping from the team until it got to the bottom and said “So, if any clubs listening in the XYZ area are looking for a wicket keeper…” Cue much public school chortling and a furious Fred. Bloody ridiculous, he probably said.

Im a Boycott man too, and i was brought up to loathe a distrust anything east of the Pennines.

I maintain Boycott is the greatest color commentator WWF never had

J.R "And Stone Cold hits him with the stunner, 1,2,3! Stone Cold wins!"

Boycott "That's bloody rubbish is that, no technique, no defense, alright it looked good for 20 minutes but that's not a real test match performance. I'm sorry but that's the way it is"

I think TMS has always worked best with a public school type doing the ball by ball, trying to goad the working class northerner to say something thats just a bit too much of an exaggeration to be taken seriously by anyone, then pressing that particular button for the next 20 minutes as the northern git (who was 1000 times the player the posh bloke was) digs himself deeper and deeper in the shit.


I think a lot about TMS these days

FS Trueman is a man i could listen to for days, i thought he improved with age, and was at his peak just when they let him go.

Who would you rather listen to on a May afternoon?

Chirpy cockney Phil Tufnell (who has improved, to be fair) making references to how he would never have saved that 4 by diving.

"You would never of got that, would you Phil?"

"I would not Aggers, he he"

"Yeah, anyway thats 4 more to Laxman"


Or a grumpy Yorshireman refusing to believe whats going on in front of his own eyes, locked in an endless cycle of misery and disgust for the modern game. Or even Boycotts thoroughly creepy and disturbing rants about his "Good friend Shilpa Shetty"

[Khaosai-Galaxy]

By the way, if anyone has mp3's of Trueman reading his, or anyone else's book, i will pay them in gold....

[stujones]

Be inclined to agree with this, people seem to forget that in Cooper's era it was very hard to get a title fight, sure there was a bum of the month every now and again - but still would the likes of Frans Botha, Bruce Seldon etc be classed a world champions... would Frank Bruno been given one world title fight, let alone four.

Cooper had one shot at the title, against the greatest at his peak... yet he was a long reigning European champion and beat some fantastic fighters.

I think Cooper has a right to be a little bitter - the BBBoC refused to sanction the WBC when he was offered the chance to challenge Jimmy Ellis for the title. Ellis would have been favourite, but not entirely inconceivable that Henry would have won.... seeing the likes of Bruno, Scott Welch, Danny Williams, Skelton getting world title fights must annoy him a little. Herbie Hide can call himself a two time world champion - hasn't had a win against a top ten heavyweight for my money.

Fair point on the WBC/Ellis, but one other reason why Cooper didn't get multiple title shots is because he lost multiple times. Bruno only lost one non-world title fight. Yes, a weaker era, but if he'd lost as many times as Cooper, including getting KO'd at European level, he would likely only received one shot (at best), too. Plus Cooper had a chance to challenge Liston, and didn't.

Scott Welsh, agreed, an absurd "world title" challenger, but Williams and Skelton were fair enough, and they too only had the one challenge. I don't they were any worse than Brian London, say.

I'd appreciate to know the world class level fighters Bruno beat. You might mention a past it Coetzee or Williams - but lets not forget, Bruno had two title shots before fighting them. Bruno didn't even prove himself the best in Britain. Herbie Hide didn't even beat anyone in Britains top 5.

Likes of Richardson, Erskine, Foley, Mildenberger etc are better wins than Bruno had, with the exception of McCall.

[Carbo]

Im a Boycott man too, and i was brought up to loathe a distrust anything east of the Pennines.

I maintain Boycott is the greatest color commentator WWF never had

J.R "And Stone Cold hits him with the stunner, 1,2,3! Stone Cold wins!"

Boycott "That's bloody rubbish is that, no technique, no defense, alright it looked good for 20 minutes but that's not a real test match performance. I'm sorry but that's the way it is"

I think TMS has always worked best with a public school type doing the ball by ball, trying to goad the working class northerner to say something thats just a bit too much of an exaggeration to be taken seriously by anyone, then pressing that particular button for the next 20 minutes as the northern git (who was 1000 times the player the posh bloke was) digs himself deeper and deeper in the poop.


I think a lot about TMS these days

FS Trueman is a man i could listen to for days, i thought he improved with age, and was at his peak just when they let him go.

Who would you rather listen to on a May afternoon?

Chirpy cockney Phil Tufnell (who has improved, to be fair) making references to how he would never have saved that 4 by diving.

"You would never of got that, would you Phil?"

"I would not Aggers, he he"

"Yeah, anyway thats 4 more to Laxman"


Or a grumpy Yorshireman refusing to believe whats going on in front of his own eyes, locked in an endless cycle of misery and disgust for the modern game. Or even Boycotts thoroughly creepy and disturbing rants about his "Good friend Shilpa Shetty"

The miserable Yorkshireman. Although I draw the line at Alec Bedser. All these Yorkshiremen have a fastidious obsession with some aspect of the modern game that just isn't the way it was in their day -- and should be. For Trueman, it was a side on bowling action; for Boycott the corridor of uncertainty. I can handle both of those. What I can't handle is Bedser's endless fixation with placing a leg slip. Never an interview goes by when he doesn't mention the leg slip, and the use of boundary fielders by modern captains.

How many wickets would you get with a leg slip, I wonder? How do you get a wicket with a leg slip, more to the point? Perhaps for an off-spinner, but not for seam up bowling.

But it seems to consume his thoughts.

And you're right about an endless cycle of misery. For years until I saw it, I thought the Stephen King movie of the same name was about the Bedser twins.

Also, I thought Trevor Bailey did a decent job as the southern version of Trueman.

And then, there’s my all time favourite colour commentator: Tony Greig. No anecdote is too inappropriate. He once told a blindingly good yarn about him and Michael Holding out at a disco one night, dancing with some girls and deciding to strip down to jocks to “liven things up”. Greig’s only regret, and I kid you not, he said this over the airwaves, was that he didn’t measure up to the “morvolously built Holding.”

Let me tell you, Mork, this wicket is as hord and forst as they come.

[Khaosai-Galaxy]

Im a Boycott man too, and i was brought up to loathe a distrust anything east of the Pennines.

I maintain Boycott is the greatest color commentator WWF never had

J.R "And Stone Cold hits him with the stunner, 1,2,3! Stone Cold wins!"

Boycott "That's bloody rubbish is that, no technique, no defense, alright it looked good for 20 minutes but that's not a real test match performance. I'm sorry but that's the way it is"

I think TMS has always worked best with a public school type doing the ball by ball, trying to goad the working class northerner to say something thats just a bit too much of an exaggeration to be taken seriously by anyone, then pressing that particular button for the next 20 minutes as the northern git (who was 1000 times the player the posh bloke was) digs himself deeper and deeper in the poop.


I think a lot about TMS these days

FS Trueman is a man i could listen to for days, i thought he improved with age, and was at his peak just when they let him go.

Who would you rather listen to on a May afternoon?

Chirpy cockney Phil Tufnell (who has improved, to be fair) making references to how he would never have saved that 4 by diving.

"You would never of got that, would you Phil?"

"I would not Aggers, he he"

"Yeah, anyway thats 4 more to Laxman"


Or a grumpy Yorshireman refusing to believe whats going on in front of his own eyes, locked in an endless cycle of misery and disgust for the modern game. Or even Boycotts thoroughly creepy and disturbing rants about his "Good friend Shilpa Shetty"

The miserable Yorkshireman. Although I draw the line at Alec Bedser. All these Yorkshiremen have a fastidious obsession with some aspect of the modern game that just isn't the way it was in their day -- and should be. For Trueman, it was a side on bowling action; for Boycott the corridor of uncertainty. I can handle both of those. What I can't handle is Bedser's endless fixation with placing a leg slip. Never an interview goes by when he doesn't mention the leg slip, and the use of boundary fielders by modern captains.

How many wickets would you get with a leg slip, I wonder? How do you get a wicket with a leg slip, more to the point? Perhaps for an off-spinner, but not for seam up bowling.

But it seems to consume his thoughts.

And you're right about an endless cycle of misery. For years until I saw it, I thought the Stephen King movie of the same name was about the Bedser twins.

Also, I thought Trevor Bailey did a decent job as the southern version of Trueman.

And then, there’s my all time favourite colour commentator: Tony Greig. No anecdote is too inappropriate. He once told a blindingly good yarn about him and Michael Holding out at a disco one night, dancing with some girls and deciding to strip down to jocks to “liven things up”. Greig’s only regret, and I kid you not, he said this over the airwaves, was that he didn’t measure up to the “morvolously built Holding.”

Let me tell you, Mork, this wicket is as hord and forst as they come.

I had forgotten about Bedser actually, and i never could stand Raymond Illingworth, i was glad when he got HIV off that rent boy.

Geoff Boycott "wrote" a book in the late 90's that was advertised as Boycott on Cricket, a tough no nonsense approach to the modern game.
The very 1st page read Brian Close = idiot, Fred Trueman = greedy and dishonest and dont get me started on that arrogant git Illingworth, he couldn't bowl, bat or field, never mind captain.
Its the most graceless public airing out of dirty laundry i've ever had the pleasure to skim through at the library that Saturday afternoon when i was locked out of the house while my mum and dad were out 'swinging' or whatever it is they did.


Sunil Gavaskar started out as a right cheeky monkey, unfortunately he had no skill whatsoever in shoehorning in his filthy, and they were tremendously filthy, anecdotes into a conversation.
You hear him scratching around the box just waiting for a lull to explain why so and so was known as 'Jumbo' or whatever

[harrygreb]

overhand right is spot on. good post. the brit scene is getting to be a bit of a minefield. to be honest i stick mainly to "boxers of the past".
pattersons chin was made of sterner stuff than china. he had a pretty decent beard as it goes. if you get hit on the button by liston you're going down and johanssen could whack with immense force.

so, carbo, because the eastern europeans were communist that nullifies the talent of cooper. ok then but that also means the talents of every european champion of every weight class, until that era stopped, are now null and void. i have never heard such shiiiite! pardon my french, no insult intended just exasperation

[Carbo]

Im a Boycott man too, and i was brought up to loathe a distrust anything east of the Pennines.

I maintain Boycott is the greatest color commentator WWF never had

J.R "And Stone Cold hits him with the stunner, 1,2,3! Stone Cold wins!"

Boycott "That's bloody rubbish is that, no technique, no defense, alright it looked good for 20 minutes but that's not a real test match performance. I'm sorry but that's the way it is"

I think TMS has always worked best with a public school type doing the ball by ball, trying to goad the working class northerner to say something thats just a bit too much of an exaggeration to be taken seriously by anyone, then pressing that particular button for the next 20 minutes as the northern git (who was 1000 times the player the posh bloke was) digs himself deeper and deeper in the poop.


I think a lot about TMS these days

FS Trueman is a man i could listen to for days, i thought he improved with age, and was at his peak just when they let him go.

Who would you rather listen to on a May afternoon?

Chirpy cockney Phil Tufnell (who has improved, to be fair) making references to how he would never have saved that 4 by diving.

"You would never of got that, would you Phil?"

"I would not Aggers, he he"

"Yeah, anyway thats 4 more to Laxman"


Or a grumpy Yorshireman refusing to believe whats going on in front of his own eyes, locked in an endless cycle of misery and disgust for the modern game. Or even Boycotts thoroughly creepy and disturbing rants about his "Good friend Shilpa Shetty"

The miserable Yorkshireman. Although I draw the line at Alec Bedser. All these Yorkshiremen have a fastidious obsession with some aspect of the modern game that just isn't the way it was in their day -- and should be. For Trueman, it was a side on bowling action; for Boycott the corridor of uncertainty. I can handle both of those. What I can't handle is Bedser's endless fixation with placing a leg slip. Never an interview goes by when he doesn't mention the leg slip, and the use of boundary fielders by modern captains.

How many wickets would you get with a leg slip, I wonder? How do you get a wicket with a leg slip, more to the point? Perhaps for an off-spinner, but not for seam up bowling.

But it seems to consume his thoughts.

And you're right about an endless cycle of misery. For years until I saw it, I thought the Stephen King movie of the same name was about the Bedser twins.

Also, I thought Trevor Bailey did a decent job as the southern version of Trueman.

And then, there’s my all time favourite colour commentator: Tony Greig. No anecdote is too inappropriate. He once told a blindingly good yarn about him and Michael Holding out at a disco one night, dancing with some girls and deciding to strip down to jocks to “liven things up”. Greig’s only regret, and I kid you not, he said this over the airwaves, was that he didn’t measure up to the “morvolously built Holding.”

Let me tell you, Mork, this wicket is as hord and forst as they come.

I had forgotten about Bedser actually, and i never could stand Raymond Illingworth, i was glad when he got HIV off that rent boy.

Yes, it's ironic really that the final lesson Illingworth gave the "youngsters watching today" wasn't the value of mastering the punch for one through mid wicket, but the value of not intravenously injecting narcotics and not posting your details in a trans-Yorkshire gift-giving fetish magazine.

It's no good arguing that Brian Close bullied you into it, or that smack was all the rage around the Headingley members enclosure: the results are there for all to see.

[harrygreb]

so, carbo, because the eastern europeans were communist that nullifies the talent of cooper. ok then but that also means the talents of every european champion of every weight class, until that era stopped, are now null and void. i have never heard such shiiiite! pardon my french, no insult intended just exasperation.
are you going to argue your point, mr carbo?

[Carbo]

so, carbo, because the eastern europeans were communist that nullifies the talent of cooper. ok then but that also means the talents of every european champion of every weight class, until that era stopped, are now null and void. i have never heard such shiiiite! pardon my french, no insult intended just exasperation.
are you going to argue your point, mr carbo?

Eerrrr... heeeelllloooooo.

Communist?

Amateur only.

Is that a good enough argument?

Like lower competition back then, because the talent pool in Europe has, like, doubled.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

carlos wigan you blind blotto!!! i said "the middle of the round" not the middle of the ring!! cor blimey the mugs on here!!

its just too easy for armchair pundits who were not around at the time to dismiss H.Cooper as rubbish. i was there all through his era and i can inform the young and impressionable that henry was better than you think

Where did I say he was rubbish hgreb you blind blotto. Of course he was a good fighter - however - he wasn't some all time great though was he? And he (or Jim Wicks did on his behalf)ducked a lot of fighters which he himself admitted.

No - I wasn't around to see Cooper's career - where you around to see Harry Greb in action?

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

He was the best heavyweight in western Europe for around 8 years? Big deal!

HA! What's your claim to fame then 'Carlos'?

Sh#t the bed this Brits forum is getting as bad as Current Scene with extreme untenable statements from members who often come across as never having seen fighters other than browse their record on Boxrec or check out a You Tube highlight reel. How long before we start using 'KTFO' in our lexicon and start trading insults over 'your mother'.

Whats my claim to fame? Probably the same as yours!

Simply put - the true world class fighters (and some not so) Cooper faced - he lost to - and Cooper did fight a shallow field as regards European competition during his reign (save over the hill Karl Mildenburger who then retired afterwards)

Henry Cooper said he thought he was the better fighter than Ali save Ali's 'negro features/skin' so why on earth should I respect a fighter who comes out with crap like that?

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

so, carbo, because the eastern europeans were communist that nullifies the talent of cooper. ok then but that also means the talents of every european champion of every weight class, until that era stopped, are now null and void. i have never heard such shiiiite! pardon my french, no insult intended just exasperation.
are you going to argue your point, mr carbo?

Eerrrr... heeeelllloooooo.

Communist?

Amateur only.

Is that a good enough argument?

Like lower competition back then, because the talent pool in Europe has, like, doubled.

Exactly!

[Khaosai-Galaxy]

I read something in the Times of India or something about the Cubans relaxing the rules on its Boxers and Baseball players turning pro.

I reckon most will flop in boxing, but be big successes in Baseball


Just a hunch

[Carbo]

I read something in the Times of India or something about the Cubans relaxing the rules on its Boxers and Baseball players turning pro.

I reckon most will flop in boxing, but be big successes in Baseball

Like, if they move from being a lightweight gold medalist to being a flop in the pro ranks, they can still have success as, say, centre fielder for the Florida Marlins?

[overhand_right]

Bottom line in this thread is Cooper, whatever his limitations, achieved more than most British heavies. he beat some good fighters, won legit belts, never shied away from a ruck with his domestic rivals like our modern British fighters, and boxed some of the best in the world.

Whatever the old boy might be saying now, and he was only saying the tee shirt was disrespectful but still complimented Hayes skills, his career deserves more respect than many here are giving.

PS - 'your mum'.

[Carbo]

Has anyone read Hugh McIlvanney's very moving account of Cooper's victory over Jack Bodell?

Actually brings a tear to the eye.

[DavidPayne]

That Tony Greig thing will make me laugh for days.

I love Boycott, disliked Trueman but that TalkSport thing is the ONLY good thing the staiton has ever done.

I'm convinced Boycott thinks he's one good net away from selection aged 67 or whatever he is.

[mickeyb]

There was a quality TMS moment in the last test when Tony Cozier told listeners that he couldn't get on the wicket to have a look for televison that morning because Boycott was standing out there with a bat practicing some shots.

"And what was the shot he was practicing, ladies and gentlemen? The forward defencive!"

[charlieb]

Floyd Patterson would have starched David Haye as well, so what's your point?

...given Patterson's china chin, he could well be starched himself.

.... Some china chin if hitters like Oscar Bonavena, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis and Henry Cooper couldn't knock him out.

My mistake, i forgot that fighters with crystal whiskers always loose to guys who can give and take a punch.

[harrygreb]

CARBO, HERES YOUR QUOTE;
Another point regarding Cooper: even at a European level, he didn't have to compete with the Eastern Europeans, because they were all communist at that stage.

AND HERES ANOTHER - AGAIN FROM YOU, A PAGE LATER;

Eerrrr... heeeelllloooooo.

Communist?

Amateur only.

Is that a good enough argument?

Like lower competition back then, because the talent pool in Europe has, like, doubled.

SO WE CAN DISCOUNT FIGHTERS LIKE TONY SIBSON, JOHNNY CLARK, KEVIN FINNEGAN, CHRIS FINNEGAN AND MANY MORE EUROPEAN CHAMPS (AND NOT ONLY FROM BRITAIN) FROM ANY KIND OF WORTHY STATUS BECAUSE THE EASTERN EUROPEANS WERE NOT THERE? WHY NOT GO THE WHOLE HOG AND SAY THAT ALL CHAMPS EUROPEAN AND WORLD ARE DISCREDITED BECAUSE YOUR WONDERFUL COMMUNIST BOXERS WERE NOT AROUND TO SMASH THEM OUT OF THE RING?? NOW ARGUE THAT!!

THE POOL MAY HAVE DOUBLED IN SIZE BUT THE QUALITY HAS FALLEN. NOW ARGUE THAT!!

[overhand_right]

My mistake, i forgot that fighters with crystal whiskers always loose to guys who can give and take a punch.

Well, certainly Bonavena, Quarry and Ellis, all of whom could bang, connected on his chin and none of them knocked him out. Some 'crystal whiskers' as you respectfully put it. Wonder how long you'd last with that steel chin of yours?! Hohoho.

[harrygreb]

QUOTE FROM CARLOS WIGAN "No - I wasn't around to see Cooper's career - where you around to see Harry Greb in action?"

never forget, i AM harry greb

[Carbo]

CARBO, HERES YOUR QUOTE;
Another point regarding Cooper: even at a European level, he didn't have to compete with the Eastern Europeans, because they were all communist at that stage.

AND HERES ANOTHER - AGAIN FROM YOU, A PAGE LATER;

Eerrrr... heeeelllloooooo.

Communist?

Amateur only.

Is that a good enough argument?

Like lower competition back then, because the talent pool in Europe has, like, doubled.

SO WE CAN DISCOUNT FIGHTERS LIKE TONY SIBSON, JOHNNY CLARK, KEVIN FINNEGAN, CHRIS FINNEGAN AND MANY MORE EUROPEAN CHAMPS (AND NOT ONLY FROM BRITAIN) FROM ANY KIND OF WORTHY STATUS BECAUSE THE EASTERN EUROPEANS WERE NOT THERE? WHY NOT GO THE WHOLE HOG AND SAY THAT ALL CHAMPS EUROPEAN AND WORLD ARE DISCREDITED BECAUSE YOUR WONDERFUL COMMUNIST BOXERS WERE NOT AROUND TO SMASH THEM OUT OF THE RING?? NOW ARGUE THAT!!

THE POOL MAY HAVE DOUBLED IN SIZE BUT THE QUALITY HAS FALLEN. NOW ARGUE THAT!!

Why are you crying?

All I was arguing, and still do, was that when people say that Cooper achieved this or that at European level compared to modern day Brits, we must factor in the fact that there were no Eastern Europeans or Russians because they were not allowed to turn pro. Cooper was competing, in effect, against French, Italian, Spanish, Portugese, Greek, Belgian, Dutch and West German fighters, a much smaller number than we have today. How many talented Warsaw Pact fighters were winning olympic and world championship golds, and staying there and not turning pro at the time. What effect would that have had on how far British fighters at the time could have gone?

Of course, it's all subjective and it is difficult to quantify, by it's not rocket science, and nothing worth going through a box of Kleenex over.

[harrygreb]

its you with the kleenex - i'm laughing my socks off at your inability to assess a fighter correctly

[Carbo]

its you with the kleenex

Brilliant rejoinder.

i'm laughing my socks off at your inability to assess a fighter correctly

And where was a assessing Cooper? I was arguing we should take into account the fact that a sizeable number of the world's better boxers were simply not allowed to compete in the pro-ranks in Coopers day. Which is a factor to be considered when one DOES assess Copper's merits relative to boxers which DID have to compete against Eastern Europeans, don't you think?

I mean, nobody's saying Alan Wells was a bad sprinter, but when judging the qualities of Olympic 100m champions through the ages, we have to bear in mind that the Americans weren't there, right?