Better Matchups Vs. Ali

NickR · Post by **NickR** » 10 Aug 2004, 00:12

People ALWAYS go on about how Tyson might beat the great Ali, which he wouldn't, yet people don't usually put Tyson at #2 on the all time heavyweights list after Ali at #1.

So, my question is, what more interesting fights are there of any heavyweight vs a prime Ali? Maybe Lennox at his best with his height and such, maybe a prime Holyfield, Rocky Marciano, or maybe even the great AUDLEY HARRISON!

What do you think?

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 10 Aug 2004, 00:38

On his best night Joe Louis would narrowly beat Ali on his best night..
He's the only heavyweight who would be able to match him in hand speed and reflexes Thus the only one quick enough to catch him when Ali pulled straight back..Louis would knock him Ali down and win a close fight over 15 rounder because he is more technically sound boxer and punches harder ...

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 10 Aug 2004, 03:22

The master boxers like Corbett, Tunney, and Jack Johnson would give Ali big problems, as would the master swarmers Frazier (we already saw), Dempsey, and Marciano. Also believe it or not a prime Liston would be a very tough fight for Ali. A washed up Liston gave Clay a close fight until he injured his shoulder.

Hope the Audley Harrison bit was a joke. And Lewis's height and reach advantage wouldn't amount to much (6'3 1'2 to 6'5, 79' to 84') Ali would tire Lewis out and make him look foolish in the late rounds.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 10 Aug 2004, 16:28

Lennox Lewis would be very hit or miss, if he went at it like he did against Razor Rudduck and Golota then Ali is out of there, but if he fought like he did the majority of his career then Ali wins easily.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 10 Aug 2004, 17:00

tonyevs wrote:Lennox Lewis would be very hit or miss, if he went at it like he did against Razor Rudduck and Golota then Ali is out of there, but if he fought like he did the majority of his career then Ali wins easily.

Ali was never close to being KO'd early. If Liston, Foreman, and Shavers couldn't do it, no way in hell Lewis does. Also, I don't put much stock into a pilled up Golota freezing in the 1st round . . . .

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 10 Aug 2004, 20:21

zurdo wrote:On his best night Joe Louis would narrowly beat Ali on his best night..
He's the only heavyweight who would be able to match him in hand speed and reflexes Thus the only one quick enough to catch him when Ali pulled straight back..Louis would knock him Ali down and win a close fight over 15 rounder because he is more technically sound boxer and punches harder ...

Actually, you're not very far off what I'd envision...I rate Louis over Ali, but not by much....and I have posted before that if they fought a 3 fight series (assuming both are at their best), the same guy wouldn't win all 3.

Last year on a 'top ten all time heavyweight' thread, I had Louis #1 and Ali #2...but if you would have a double elimination tournament with all the guys in my top ten, I really believe that nobody comes out undefeated...

It's true that Jack Johnson, Gene Tunney, Jack Dempsey would give Ali problems...but rest assured that Ali would give them problems as well...

And, I thought Ali (Clay) did fight a 'prime' Liston...he had just won the title 18 months before...I think many people forget just how highly thought of Sonny was before the 1st fight...I recall him being compared to Joe Louis by the sportswriters of the time...and then OVERNIGHT...he became a bum....very unfair, Liston was a technically sound boxer who could HIT, and I personally consider him to be in the top ten all time....I recently saw Chuck Wepner in an old TV interview describing what it was like to get hit by Liston (an old Liston) in 1970...Wepner recalled hearing bones crack in his head & face a few times when Sonny hit him, not to mention the over 200 sutures required to close the cuts! In 1969, Sonny also ended the career of very promising heavy Leotis Martin by detatching his retina, although he lost the fight...Sonny took young Cassius Clay way too lightly...and when the rematch came around 15 months later, Sonny was by then starting to get old...and he was still a 6-5 favorite in the rematch...

Tyson KTFO 3 Times · Post by **Tyson KTFO 3 Times** » 11 Aug 2004, 20:38

Larry Holmes would not Just have given Ali a tough fight, he'd have beaten him.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 11 Aug 2004, 20:40

...never know...I thought he was going to beat Spinks (twice)....

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 12 Aug 2004, 03:03

i go along with zurdo and for this reason: Ali was so hard to knockdown,let alone kock out, because he had a great chin...PLUS..and i think just as if not more important...he was almost impossible to hit with combinations. shaver whacked him with some pips...but only one at a time.the frazier knockdown was with one big left hook...and i'm sure you can think of other examples.

which brings me to joe louis. the bomber had incredibly fast hands..and power in each. when he caught you with one of his power shots another was one the way in an instant..and then another. he'd have his guy woozy and on the way to the canvas and still unload those cannonballs while the guy was falling. this is why i think he'd have the best chance of kayoing ali....joe's hand reflexes were a tad faster than ali's defensive reflexes.

i can't roll back far enough to see who wrote that he didn't think anyone in a tournament of the great heavies (or any division) would come through undefeated.....and with this i heartily agree. styles, rematches...a lot of factors would go into fighters of this quality all going at each other.

topman · Post by **topman** » 12 Aug 2004, 03:13

NICKR,U SAY TYSON WOULD NEVER HAV BEATEN ALI IN HIS PRIME, BUT SAY HOLYFIELD AND MARCIANO COULD HAVE.LETS NOT FORGET THAT IN THEIR PRIMES TYSON WAS A BIGGER,QUICKER AND HARDER PUNCHER THAN BOTH HOLYFIELD AND MARCIANO,SO SURELY TYSON WOULD HAVE HAD MORE OF A CHANCE THAN THESE 2 FIGHTERS.AS 4 LEWIS WHO WOULD HAVE OUT WEIGHED ALI BY MAYBE 3 1/2 STONE A GREAT ATHLETE AND A BIG PUNCHER WOULD HAV STOOD A SERIOUS CHANCE.I BELIEVE THAT TYSON WOULD HAVE BEATEN AL IF NOT LATE THEN ON POINTS

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 12 Aug 2004, 13:43

Sweet Scientist wrote:
zurdo wrote:On his best night Joe Louis would narrowly beat Ali on his best night..
He's the only heavyweight who would be able to match him in hand speed and reflexes Thus the only one quick enough to catch him when Ali pulled straight back..Louis would knock him Ali down and win a close fight over 15 rounder because he is more technically sound boxer and punches harder ...
Actually, you're not very far off what I'd envision...I rate Louis over Ali, but not by much....and I have posted before that if they fought a 3 fight series (assuming both are at their best), the same guy wouldn't win all 3.

Last year on a 'top ten all time heavyweight' thread, I had Louis #1 and Ali #2...but if you would have a double elimination tournament with all the guys in my top ten, I really believe that nobody comes out undefeated...

It's true that Jack Johnson, Gene Tunney, Jack Dempsey would give Ali problems...but rest assured that Ali would give them problems as well...

And, I thought Ali (Clay) did fight a 'prime' Liston...he had just won the title 18 months before...I think many people forget just how highly thought of Sonny was before the 1st fight...I recall him being compared to Joe Louis by the sportswriters of the time...and then OVERNIGHT...he became a bum....very unfair, Liston was a technically sound boxer who could HIT, and I personally consider him to be in the top ten all time....I recently saw Chuck Wepner in an old TV interview describing what it was like to get hit by Liston (an old Liston) in 1970...Wepner recalled hearing bones crack in his head & face a few times when Sonny hit him, not to mention the over 200 sutures required to close the cuts! In 1969, Sonny also ended the career of very promising heavy Leotis Martin by detatching his retina, although he lost the fight...Sonny took young Cassius Clay way too lightly...and when the rematch came around 15 months later, Sonny was by then starting to get old...and he was still a 6-5 favorite in the rematch...

Liston won the title so late b/c Patterson spent his championship reign ducking him (and Liston also disrupted his boxing career with a stint in the slammar). By the time he fought Clay he was at least 36 years old (he's much older then his 'official' bio claimed). He was out of his prime, and like you said he look Clay lightly. Those two factors ensured the Clay victory, although the fight was close until Liston tore his rotator cuff in the 5th round.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 14 Aug 2004, 13:59

I think Butterbean would've given him a real challenge.

NickR · Post by **NickR** » 14 Aug 2004, 20:30

topman wrote:NICKR,U SAY TYSON WOULD NEVER HAV BEATEN ALI IN HIS PRIME, BUT SAY HOLYFIELD AND MARCIANO COULD HAVE.LETS NOT FORGET THAT IN THEIR PRIMES TYSON WAS A BIGGER,QUICKER AND HARDER PUNCHER THAN BOTH HOLYFIELD AND MARCIANO,SO SURELY TYSON WOULD HAVE HAD MORE OF A CHANCE THAN THESE 2 FIGHTERS.AS 4 LEWIS WHO WOULD HAVE OUT WEIGHED ALI BY MAYBE 3 1/2 STONE A GREAT ATHLETE AND A BIG PUNCHER WOULD HAV STOOD A SERIOUS CHANCE.I BELIEVE THAT TYSON WOULD HAVE BEATEN AL IF NOT LATE THEN ON POINTS

Ouch caps.

I didn't say they would beat Ali, I was raising the question of whether they could. See those question marks? That means it's a question, not a statement of my opinion.

jezzamundo · Post by **jezzamundo** » 15 Aug 2004, 09:47

Against a prime Ali, I wouldn't favour anyone, although I would give a prime Lennox Lewis a better chance than anyone else.

He would have a decent size and strength advantage, which could definitely come into play in the later rounds. I think a late KO to Lewis could be a likely outcome.