Who would win? Foreman of 1-22-73 Or Tyson of 2-11-90?

[BoxBuzz]

Let's get very specific. Of course the spin is now reversed.

Would this go past round 1?

[John Galt]

I think it probably goes more than one round. Foreman is tough. Even though Foreman has never felt anything like Tyson's power and had never seen that type quickness, Foreman would probably last 2-4 rounds. Sure Tyson was going downhill at that time, but it took a big, quick guy, with excellent boxing skills, on the best night of his life to beat even that Tyson. Foreman does not have the boxing skills or speed to be competitive but I don't think he would go out in the first.

[BoxBuzz]

Mr Galt, have you been in the sacramental wine once again?

[hhaehre]

I think it would go past one but probably not past three. You'd have to think about Foreman-Frazier in this context and while Tyson was more explosive and punched harder than Frazier I think Frazier had the better chin. This would come down to whether Tyson could knock Foreman out early. I Tyson would ring Foremans bell early but Foreman would take it and come back with his own bombs. Foreman would use his size and strength advantage to manhandle Tyson like he did Frazier and stop Tyson in three.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Let's get very specific. Of course the spin is now reversed.

Would this go past round 1?

- What spin are you talking of? Of course it goes past one.

Douglas boxes better than George and Mike took it ten rds. With George's power, I don't see it going past 4-5 given that Tyson showed little inclination to step inside Douglas, no head movement or foot movement and was throwing single shots, not combos, looking more zombie than a fighter.

In short, Tyson debuted his poorly trained medicated version that reported to duty for the rest of his career not to mention Cus had beat it into him to stay the hell the way from Foreman like fighters. Doesn't mean he couldn't possibly stun George in a slug out and finish him, but that seems unlikely.

[man]

if douglas could ko tyson that night, than foreman
would have done exactly the same. i don't think that
at any point in time douglas was better than foreman.

but foreman of 1-22-73 (frazier fight) against the
tyson of 06-27-88 (spinks fight) is a different story.
both in their undefeated prime feeling invincible. i do
not think tyson could have easily handled such prime
foreman. not even at his own prime. but foreman had
a horrible defense. i think this one could have become
a single sided quick ko for tyson or the ultimate fight
of the century. i think prime tyson had a pretty effective
defense. he was not only strong, he was slick and very
fast - especially for a man of his power. so my guess
for prime versus prime would be tyson, due to better
defense.

[BoxBuzz]

Let's get very specific. Of course the spin is now reversed.

Would this go past round 1?

- What spin are you talking of? Of course it goes past one.

Douglas boxes better than George and Mike took it ten rds. With George's power, I don't see it going past 4-5 given that Tyson showed little inclination to step inside Douglas, no head movement or foot movement and was throwing single shots, not combos, looking more zombie than a fighter.

In short, Tyson debuted his poorly trained medicated version that reported to duty for the rest of his career not to mention Cus had beat it into him to stay the hell the way from Foreman like fighters. Doesn't mean he couldn't possibly stun George in a slug out and finish him, but that seems unlikely.

The spin I refer to is the other thread with George getting older and Tyson in his prime.
But George had not found his character at this point in his career, but still I beleive it was in him to probably take Mikes shots and likely find a way out of the woods in the early going. I do think this fight would show weaknesses on behalf of both guys. Foreman seasoned with age, I'm not saying he was better but he did season well. Tyson on the other hand wilted.

[hhaehre]

but foreman had
a horrible defense.

I disagree, he was hit but mostly by single shots. When hit Foreman reacted well and he had the chin to take the occasional blast. For the most part his defence was his offence.

so my guess
for prime versus prime would be tyson, due to better
defense.

Tyson relied on his offense just like Foreman and even in his prime Tyson was hit but usually his opponent was too timid to follow up. For me it boils down to who had the stronger chin and that was Foreman.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Mr Galt, have you been in the sacramental wine once again?

If only he had that excuse

[man]

but foreman had
a horrible defense.

I disagree, he was hit but mostly by single shots. When hit Foreman reacted well and he had the chin to take the occasional blast. For the most part his defence was his offence.

so my guess
for prime versus prime would be tyson, due to better
defense.

Tyson relied on his offense just like Foreman and even in his prime Tyson was hit but usually his opponent was too timid to follow up. For me it boils down to who had the stronger chin and that was Foreman.

i respectfully disagree. foreman's footwork basically
did not exist - to me an essential weakness especially
for defense. against lyle his defense was a nightmare.

i am not sure chinwise. i think they both got pretty
good chin, actually great chins. even faded tyson took
quite some right hands from lennox lewis until lights
went out. and foreman, again against lyle, took bombs
and kept going.

the early version of foreman simply did not care for
defense. before the ali fight he had no reason to think
about it at all. george was just shoulders - no feet and
no brain.

i think prime tyson had an excellent defense. it is just
overshadowed so to speak by his even more convincing
offense. before the douglas fight it was simply not easy
for anyone to get him. i think he had excellent body and
head movement. i think the arrogance he build up over
the years made him feel this was not necessary - or not
"male" - anymore. so he started to get caught and that
was devastating for his game - and ego. instead of getting
"back to the gym" he became "evil" ...

to me that was the main thing against holyfield. the early
going was as usual. mike getting through, the opponent
early in backwards mode. but then came the counter, which
the earlier tyson would have ducked under or sideways.
yet the too arrogant tyson took it standing straight. and
that was the beginning of the end.

[yiddle]

this time big george chops tyson down inside three

[hhaehre]

i respectfully disagree. foreman's footwork basically
did not exist - to me an essential weakness especially
for defense. against lyle his defense was a nightmare.

Footwork was not Foremans strong point I agree and his defense looked very bad against Lyle but I regard that fight as somewhat of an anomaly. Against Lyle Foreman was donning his new and "improved" style following the Ali fight. This new and more measured way of fighting did him no good against anyone he fought between Ali and his second career imo. but vs. Lyle it was a particularly ill suited. If it was one thing you did not want to do against Lyle it was to stand square in front of him and give him time to unload. Made for a very entertaining fight though.

i am not sure chinwise. i think they both got pretty
good chin, actually great chins. even faded tyson took
quite some right hands from lennox lewis until lights
went out. and foreman, again against lyle, took bombs
and kept going.

This is true but I still think Foreman reacted better when he was in trouble than Tyson did. Foreman was able to come back and win after being floored and hurt but Tyson never did.

the early version of foreman simply did not care for
defense. before the ali fight he had no reason to think
about it at all. george was just shoulders - no feet and
no brain.

He was to busy overwhelming his opponents to care about defense. It worked out pretty well for him and he was hit less then than later in his career when he boxed more.

i think prime tyson had an excellent defense. it is just
overshadowed so to speak by his even more convincing
offense. before the douglas fight it was simply not easy
for anyone to get him. i think he had excellent body and
head movement. i think the arrogance he build up over
the years made him feel this was not necessary - or not
"male" - anymore. so he started to get caught and that
was devastating for his game - and ego. instead of getting
"back to the gym" he became "evil" ...

to me that was the main thing against holyfield. the early
going was as usual. mike getting through, the opponent
early in backwards mode. but then came the counter, which
the earlier tyson would have ducked under or sideways.
yet the too arrogant tyson took it standing straight. and
that was the beginning of the end.

We are in total agreement here

[chiricahua]

i think prime tyson had an excellent defense. it is just
overshadowed so to speak by his even more convincing
offense. before the douglas fight it was simply not easy
for anyone to get him. i think he had excellent body and
head movement. i think the arrogance he build up over
the years made him feel this was not necessary - or not
"male" - anymore. so he started to get caught and that
was devastating for his game - and ego. instead of getting
"back to the gym" he became "evil" ...

to me that was the main thing against holyfield. the early
going was as usual. mike getting through, the opponent
early in backwards mode. but then came the counter, which
the earlier tyson would have ducked under or sideways.
yet the too arrogant tyson took it standing straight. and
that was the beginning of the end.

Excellent post!!

[Evander]

The other Tyson v Foreman question is an obvious gimme in Mikes favor,it's not fair at all.
BB is making a valid point by even posing his alternative.

I'm going to answer the question as if it was put ... on their best night who would win Foreman or Tyson ?


George Foreman on career slam dunks Mike by a mile.
But a one off.
When I look back at fights of the past Foreman looked incredibly strong,not so much the crafted type of boxer just an overwhelming force.
George came across as a very intimidating figure in the past and could back up his aggression.
Foreman has an amazing stoppage ratio and even today is very well respected.
Mike Tyson fizzled away at the top level at one point but was still able to maintain his boxing name from previous performances.
Still it became a circus act and wasn't truely respected from the boxing insiders no matter how much money he made.
Prime Tyson was as big as anything I have ever seen in the sport,he didn't need hype.
People wanted to beat Jones but felt overawed by his speed,they thought they could challenge Whitakers defensive prowess and overcome Hopkins age while close to their prime.
Everyone was shit scared of Mike Tyson.

If someone landed a decent shot on Mike it was a talking point for weeks,remember the Tucker,Smith and Bruno shots on him,we never heard the end of those even though Tyson ended up winning all of those contests easily.
There are 4 things in professional boxing I'm certain of,Hopkins never got beat down,
Whitaker was a defensive genius,Jones Jr was damn near unbeatable in all weight classes and Mike Tyson was unstoppable in his prime while it lasted.

The pick

I'd go with a prime Tyson.
In any other period of their careers it would be Foreman.
Prime Tyson was something else.

[BoxBuzz]

Evander thanks for that thoughtful analysis. I'm not sure I disagree. When focused and primed, Tyson was a spectacle.

Here are points I will add....you may have already accounted for them. They both suffered from "the dark night of the soul" syndrome....George came back, and Tyson's story has not yet been told but it seems he will not have the recovery that George had. Makes me feel even on their best nights Foreman gets the mental edge.

If both are mentally strong and are allowed ALL their individual BEST attributes...(for George that means the benefit of both career highlights. The mental tenacity of the second half with all the physics of his first go round) I might slightly favor this hybrid version of George. If it is simply both men on their best night in real time, I think it would be too close to call, but your thoughts make perfect sense and are well defended.

For those who think Joe Frazier came to fight in their second go round, that may be the closest reality fight to what we are talking about, and George does say that Joe rang his bell rather profoundly. He may have to endure more than he did that night and in the Lyle fight combined to get to the other end with Mike at the very top of his game.

Anyway I've had a good time with this hypothetical.

Can anyone give a synopsis on what happened in real time when this fight could have been made? I have read that George was open to this and Tyson's camp was not. (I'm not trying to reopen the debate, just wondering is there any way to sift through the fog of that and get to the historical reality) Please reference your source if you have the history of this.

[man]

... ,Jones Jr was damn near unbeatable in all weight classes ...

the only thing in your post that i find questionable.
just imagine jones versus ... tyson ... no, m'me, john
ruiz was the upper limit in terms of hws for rjj ... up
to cruiser i agree. above that ... ney ...

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Here are points I will add....you may have already accounted for them. They both suffered from "the dark night of the soul" syndrome....George came back, and Tyson's story has not yet been told but it seems he will not have the recovery that George had. Makes me feel even on their best nights Foreman gets the mental edge.

- I find the above incredulous. George suffered from typical temporary misjudgments of youth for whom the job corps program in San Marcos was set up for that is still in place to this day.

George was introduced to boxing and never looked back. When he retired at age 28, it was for religious reasons, not incarceration for criminal behaviours. Might as well compare compare Tyson's "dark night of the soul" of the Pope for relevancy.

Tyson did come back from incarceration to regain titles, so really, what are you really going on about? That he's not a holy man or especially respected?

[BoxBuzz]

Here are points I will add....you may have already accounted for them. They both suffered from "the dark night of the soul" syndrome....George came back, and Tyson's story has not yet been told but it seems he will not have the recovery that George had. Makes me feel even on their best nights Foreman gets the mental edge.

- I find the above incredulous. George suffered from typical temporary misjudgments of youth for whom the job corps program in San Marcos was set up for that is still in place to this day.

George was introduced to boxing and never looked back. When he retired at age 28, it was for religious reasons, not incarceration for criminal behaviours. Might as well compare compare Tyson's "dark night of the soul" of the Pope for relevancy.

Tyson did come back from incarceration to regain titles, so really, what are you really going on about? That he's not a holy man or especially respected?

"The dark night of the soul" of which I speak is rather simple and not connected to your assumptions. It's about belief in one's self for the most part, and about the things that we value and guide us as individuals. It can play out in any number of ways. Sounds like you want to say that George's issue was small and Mike's was large. Are you really equating George with the Pope somehow? That's ok with me. Sounds like you've put a serious value judgment on those differences as well. No problem with me on that, though I'm not sure I agree with your basis of your described relativity in this area.

[man]

george and tyson both believed in their invincibility
when they were in their early twenties. who can blame
them? especially when this belief is not only backed
up by your record, but seems to improve your game
since it intimidates your opponents ...

i was very moved - and astonished - by a tyson docu
that showed him early on and with his (ex-)wife. he
was so different. charming. nice. mike tyson was and
probably is mentally and emotionally a kid of twelve
or thirteen, struggling to find his way in a complex
world, which only really rewarded him for one aspect
of his being: his fighting capability. and he learned
that on side aspect of this capability - brutality -
would give him immediate meaning, at least for the
other guy who shares the ring with him.

there were so many issues his fighting could not help
him overcome. the broken marriage. the time in prison.
he, while being the strongest man on earth, was the most
powerless. i guess that is how it felt for him. the only
affection he could gain was by being successful in the
ring. but he was too stubborn to allow someone to
really train him. so that turned against him as well. i
think this is the real key to the tyson paradox: the
most powerful man feeling so utterly powerless. and
he could not even blame anybody else. a very weird
and complex situation ...

the george story is IMO quite different, though there are
remarkable similarities. the biggest difference is the
different way their first loss occurred. tyson had a lot of
excuses. being out of shape, underestimating buster,
and so forth. foreman did not have that. he was outboxed,
outsmarted. by ali. he knew quite well that it was not just
lose ropes ... . so foreman's fighter ego received a humbling
blow. that did not happen to tyson until evander crossed
his way ... . had holyfield happened to him in '90 he might
have got back to the drawing board and finally become
the boxer his early success seemed to promise to the boxing
world. but by 96 he was thirty, way too far in his personal
meltdown and it was ... too late.

i could go and write five pages on this ... :) ... better stop
right here. just one final remark. IMO it was not ali who
showed the boxing weakness of george (which IMO was lack
of body and head movement along with non existing foot work),
but ron lyle. ironically that was a victory for him. both tyson
and foreman are the best example that a lack of defensive
skills is disastrous, no matter how good your offense might
be.

[Syntax Error]

By 11/02/1990 Tyson was no longer moving his head, therefore he was much easier to hit by then. However, he still had the ability to take a decent punch (he always retained that) & his stamina was probably just good enough to go 12 rounds.

Foreman was always similar to Tyson in that he could always take a decent shot, but he had questionable stamina.

What always separated them was heart & mental fortitude: Foreman had bags of it, Tyson did not.

Tyson would always wilt under real sustained pressure & Foreman would have put massive pressure on him.

I see the ref rescuing a demoralised Tyson in about 6 - 7 rounds.

[man]

... What always separated them was heart & mental fortitude: Foreman had bags of it, Tyson did not. ...

i am not sure about that. tyson's significant losses
happened in a pretty unique fashion. he was simply
outclassed by evander, as well as by lewis and he
stood there as long as he could. he had all the heart,
he just did not have any tool left to use ... i really do
not see how any amount of heart could have helped
him against evander and lewis, they had already punched
all punching out of him. i did not see tyson leave the
ring with anything left in him to compete ... and in my
book that is ... heart and mental fortitude.

you cannot take away from mike that at any point he did
his best as long as he could. he had no fight to prove heart
like foreman did against lyle. in mike's lost fights he got
caught way too often, due to his faded defense, and simply
was no match anymore. either tyson won or he was completely
out of it. for him there was no in between ...

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

the george story is IMO quite different, though there are
remarkable similarities. the biggest difference is the
different way their first loss occurred. tyson had a lot of
excuses. being out of shape, underestimating buster,
and so forth. foreman did not have that. he was outboxed,
outsmarted. by ali. he knew quite well that it was not just
lose ropes ... . so foreman's fighter ego received a humbling
blow. that did not happen to tyson until evander crossed
his way ...

- Pity that you seemed such a nice reasonable gent until you crossed over to the goofy side.

Whatever Ali may have done to George, he most certainly didn't outbox or outsmart him. Ali was nothing but a punching bag for 80% of the fight regardless of how many shots he may have taken on the arms. It was a lucky gamble he took to lay on the ropes. He admits he was out on his feet a few times in the bout. He out-toughed George in a fight of attrition, big big difference.

As far as the lose ropes, they were loose and Dundee on record as saying he adjusted them. He tried the same thing in the first Frazier fight in MSG, but John Condon, the publicist, dropped a hint to Yank Durham to check the ropes which were adjusted back. Foreman was cut his first day sparring in Africa and the Ali fight delayed a month until it was healed. Foreman was not in fighting shape, being unable to spar properly, so was clumsy in the ring even for him.

Moreover, if you study the post fight interviews, Foreman is far from being shattered. He's very philosophical and ready for a rematch. Ali is the one looking unhinged.

Foreman may have had some troubling issues like any of us, but Foreman was not nearly so mentally unstable as Tyson who required medication to regulate him, and even that wasn't reliable enough.

I'm all for fantasy matchups, but the porkies have got to stop. Why some of you make up history to suit surely is the calling card for the human condition.

[man]

- Pity that you seemed such a nice reasonable gent until you crossed over to the goofy side.

and i was so proud of my reasoning in that paragraph ...

Whatever Ali may have done to George, he most certainly didn't outbox or outsmart him. Ali was nothing but a punching bag for 80% of the fight regardless of how many shots he may have taken on the arms. It was a lucky gamble he took to lay on the ropes. He admits he was out on his feet a few times in the bout. He out-toughed George in a fight of attrition, big big difference.

i am a real defender of george's in that fight, especially
about the ending, where the ruling champion is taken
out of the fight while beating the count at the very end
of the round - which is very unfair IMO. but i had so far
nobody that claimed that ali did not outsmart him.
i think even foreman does not see it like that. if you look
at the whole fight, ali was superior. look at the scorecards,
68-66, 70-67, 69-66, all three in favour of ali. get the
witnesses that claim ali constantly talked to him "you're not
hitting hard enough", by which he made george punch
himself out. all this indicates to me that he may not have
outboxed him (this bout was not about boxing but tactics),
but he clearly outsmarted him. not to mention by the way,
that no hw ever, if i recall correctly, went consciously and
intentionally for such extended time to the ropes and let
the other guy punch at him. and especially not ali, the man
who was supposed to dance ...

yes, it was "a fight of attrition", because ali intended it to be
one. which is what i call "outsmart" ...

btw i am not at all a non questioning ali fan regarding this fight.
and i am very critical about the IMO false picture "when we were
kings" showed about the bout ... anyways ...

Moreover, if you study the post fight interviews, Foreman is far from being shattered. He's very philosophical and ready for a rematch. Ali is the one looking unhinged.

if you listen to later interviews, foreman admits the loss was
devastating to his self esteem and he felt ashamed for quite
some time.

Foreman may have had some troubling issues like any of us, but Foreman was not nearly so mentally unstable as Tyson who required medication to regulate him, and even that wasn't reliable enough.

no dispute about that.

I'm all for fantasy matchups, but the porkies have got to stop. Why some of you make up history to suit surely is the calling card for the human condition.

"und im wesenlosen scheine liegt was uns
alle bändigt - das gemeine ..."
(goethe/faust if i recall correctly)

don't find it in english, just trying (desperately) to restore
my "gent" status ...

[BoxBuzz]

....punching bag was winning on all the scorecards at the time of the stoppage.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

....punching bag was winning on all the scorecards at the time of the stoppage.

- Scorecards and weights are movable goalposts in boxrec, here today, gone tomorrow.

Scorecards also show Ali won the last two Norton fights and the Young fight. If that's the way Ali has to get his wins, give me the hard fought losses in the other guy's hometown like Glen Johnson is famous for.