Calzaghe or Hatton in the history books?

[hitman_hatton1]

calzaghe will go down as an all time great.

top 75 of all time.

hatton sadly will never attain those levels.

even if he was to finish with a flourish.

calzaghe is widely regarded as the best super middleweight ever as well.

hatton wouldn't make a top 10 jr welter (admittedly a better division history than super middle).

[alexpaterson]

I think JC is going down as the better fighter because he beat the best fighters at his weight whearas Hatton when he stepped up he lost Kessler and Hopkins were really good wins for JC Hatton's best wins were against Tsyzu who was past it but it was still a good win i just think JC did more

[Matt W]

One of the key factors here is that we know just how good Hatton is because he chose to test himself in the severest way he could - against the very best in the US. Calzaghe never did anything to compare with this so for me although I would lean towards Calzaghe being the better fighter, Hatton has had by far the more memorable career.

[Autobarn]

calzaghe will go down as an all time great.

top 75 of all time.

hatton sadly will never attain those levels.

even if he was to finish with a flourish.

calzaghe is widely regarded as the best super middleweight ever as well.

hatton wouldn't make a top 10 jr welter (admittedly a better division history than super middle).

as you get at here, super middle not exactly a classic division

props to joe for being a champ at 2 weights though

[stujones]

Was Joe really a champ at Light Heavy. I do class Hopkins as a champ, even though he didn't win one of the big four belt.... but he RETIRED after Tarver. Since when to retired fighters keep on to their title... well only 2 times I have seen this.

1) Horse's P4P list

2) When a fighter is a partner of the company who own the Magazine that runs this so called championship.

We all criticised this "champion ermatus" thing that Kostya Tszyu and Vitali Klitchsko had... but when they fought Mitchell and Peter - they were classed as the challenger.

Should we call Mayweather the 147 champion now?

If there wasn't anyone at least TRYING to fight opponents worthy enough to make him become the man, then I would say fair enough - give it too Hopkins... but Dawson's resume is pretty impressive.

[stujones]

Autobarn, I know what you are saying... but why Adameck..... Joe vs Haye would have been MASSIVE!!!! some serious coin could have been made on that.

I've been into a "debate" on a non boxing forum with this biggest Calzaghe fan I have seen... but such a big boxing fan he made a thread asking why aren't the sanctioning bodies giving Kessler a chance to fight for a title!!! He was claiming the Ricky hadn't fought anyone WORLD CLASS!!! and was comparing Hatton with Bruno.

For me, both are on a par. Calzaghe will have an edge on the "what could have been" - we know what happend to Ricky (and I take my hat off for giving it a go). For Joe, I think I know what would have happend, but we don't know.

Joe Calzaghe = best managed career in boxing.

[banjo]

Was Joe really a champ at Light Heavy. I do class Hopkins as a champ, even though he didn't win one of the big four belt.... but he RETIRED after Tarver. Since when to retired fighters keep on to their title... well only 2 times I have seen this.

1) Horse's P4P list

2) When a fighter is a partner of the company who own the Magazine that runs this so called championship.

We all criticised this "champion ermatus" thing that Kostya Tszyu and Vitali Klitchsko had... but when they fought Mitchell and Peter - they were classed as the challenger.

Should we call Mayweather the 147 champion now?

If there wasn't anyone at least TRYING to fight opponents worthy enough to make him become the man, then I would say fair enough - give it too Hopkins... but Dawson's resume is pretty impressive.

I thought Kostya Tszyu was the IBF champion, Mitchell was only the "interim" title holder.

[stujones]

I think JC is going down as the better fighter because he beat the best fighters at his weight whearas Hatton when he stepped up he lost Kessler and Hopkins were really good wins for JC Hatton's best wins were against Tsyzu who was past it but it was still a good win i just think JC did more

Kostya was the best fighter in the devision though. He was number #1... and with Floyd up at Welter, many considered both Castillo and Malignaggi #2 behind Hatton at the time of their contest at 140.

An alarming fact about Joe's career is that in his 11 years of domination he faced 2 reigning world champions, and only 3 who never lost their title in the ring (was Hopkins a champion at Light Heavy is open to debate). Hatton beat 4 reigning big four world champions (for these titles), and beat a 5th fighter who only lost his title through politics.

Hatton was a world title CHALLENGER on 3 occasions, in which he had no proper belt and was facing someone with a belt (Tszyu, Collazo, Urango). Calzaghe never faced this... either won vacant belts or it was a unification belt (Champion vs Champion).

[stujones]

Was Joe really a champ at Light Heavy. I do class Hopkins as a champ, even though he didn't win one of the big four belt.... but he RETIRED after Tarver. Since when to retired fighters keep on to their title... well only 2 times I have seen this.

1) Horse's P4P list

2) When a fighter is a partner of the company who own the Magazine that runs this so called championship.

We all criticised this "champion ermatus" thing that Kostya Tszyu and Vitali Klitchsko had... but when they fought Mitchell and Peter - they were classed as the challenger.

Should we call Mayweather the 147 champion now?

If there wasn't anyone at least TRYING to fight opponents worthy enough to make him become the man, then I would say fair enough - give it too Hopkins... but Dawson's resume is pretty impressive.

I thought Kostya Tszyu was the IBF champion, Mitchell was only the "interim" title holder.

Actually your right, my appologies

Kostya never retired though... he always said he was coming back but apart from injury.

Klitchsko and Hopkins did.

[stujones]

hopkins was lineal surely? and calzaghe beat the man

Technically no he wasn't lineal. Zsolt Erdei is.

[stujones]

thats just boxing, i dont think you can judge a fighters career on that. cotto has never faced a champion, at least joe faced title holders.

You think 2 in this 11 year reign was acceptable... okay, say 3.

Hatton might have had a shorter career - but everyone of his fighters he faced after Tszyu were either champions, had been champions or were long time top tenners.

[stujones]

oh. who did he beat for it?

Its a rather complicated situation... basically Roy Jones won an interim WBC title beating Mike McCullum, but Graciano Rochigianni was the champion. Then the WBC kind of discredited Rochigianni and declared Jones full champion... but they never fought.

Rochigianni won a court case at the tail end of his career.

Rochigianni lost to Dariusz, who lost to Gonzales, who lost to Erdei.

[Dioufy]

Calzaghe just annoys me whenever I hear or see his name. Over ten years to unify with another belt holder. Carl Froch is showing what a champion is all about. He could be unifying in his next fight, after his last fight, which was very tough and away from home.

[stujones]

i agree with your point, i just dont think saying joe never faced a title holder that wasn't for a unification means anything.hell carlos maussa was a title holder. imo hatton had the better career, but joe is the better boxer by someway.

I agree with you completely... I am just saying a "great" has got to have a situation in which he is challenger, or at least something perceived as a challenge. I think the fact the Joe was only twice a betting underdog and never really had that feeling of being the "challenger" with all the nerves etc does damage his legacy. Hatton was a challenger on a few occasions, well bizzarely he was even billed as the challenger in his last fight... even though his ring belt was on the line!

It damages Cotto also, he's now seems to have got this "invincibility" back with the press, because of a thing Margarito MIGHT have done in that fight.

[Dioufy]

Calzaghe just annoys me whenever I hear or see his name. Over ten years to unify with another belt holder. Carl Froch is showing what a champion is all about. He could be unifying in his next fight, after his last fight, which was very tough and away from home.

very true, but calzaghe is a better fighter, its a shame he didn't do what froch is doing.

Quality skills. Skills-wise, one of the best, if not the best we have ever had. Just a shame he lacked the confidence to chase the best, like Froch, Haye and Hatton (to a degree) did. He could've become more than what he is now.

Just a shame he was petrified of losing.

[Dioufy]

Calzaghe should've perhaps thought about going to Germany to fight Ottke. It's not like he had never fought there before (lol - mug!). It's what the best English men do, travel abroad to fight the best. Lewis, Haye, Hatton and Froch did it. Calzaghe did it against two granddads (and lost one of them I feel). Even when it looked like Calzaghe would have to go to Denmark, he wouldn't have done.

Hopkins, Lacy and Kessler were two good wins on paper though. I applaud him for that, but he always needed an advantage in fights, and that was no different.

[stujones]

There was a lot more than just Ottke... I won't name them all - as its been said many times.

I think 2001 Joe was around his pomp... 4 years a champion... 28 years of age, smashed Mario Veit in a round. Still hadn't hit the canvas. Then was the time for him to face the likes of Ottke, Jones, Hopkins, Dariusz, etc etc.

[Dioufy]

I don't disagree there, but Hatton was the man at 140lbs but travelled. Lewis was the man at heavyweight but travelled, Froch was the man at 168lbs but travelled. It's what he needed to do to get Ottlke, Jones, Hopkins (when they weren't over 40), but he didn't.

[Dioufy]

Of course it would've done. Showtime (or HBO, I forget) came over and covered it.

And what I meant, Froch was more the man at 168lbs than Taylor was, but he travelled for the goodness of his career. Good man.

[stujones]

It would have meant a shit load in denmark, as would Ottke/Beyer in Germany... Joe would have made some serious coin fighting those.

And what about Lacy?

Its kind of sad that in the 4 overseas fights. 1 was against Kid Fire McIntyre, another was against a guy he did in a round, and the remain two were past it Hopkins and Jones.

[Dioufy]

Sg,

It's only because the Millennium Stadium could be filled, and generate more money. Exactly the same with Wlad/Haye. It's filling at 60,000 stadium. It's only in Germany because it's making the most money, not because the Yanks aren't interested.

And Stuart is right.

[Dioufy]

Nope, but I never disputed that. All I am saying is that Calzaghe has always had the pre-fight advantages, whether is be age, venue or weight. He hasn't ever risked it like Froch (Taylor), Lewis (lots of fights), Hatton (Mayweather, Pacman) and Haye (Wlad and Mormeck) did. He doesn't have that amazingly good result on his resume - imagine what a win over prime Jones or an Ottke would've done for his legacy. Not forgetting a whole host of others fighters.

Am I wrong?

[stujones]

Whats the US got to do with it? It would have made as much, if not more money in denmark than it did in Wales.

Kessler vs Calzaghe would have filled a similar sized stadium in Denmark... for sure.

Malignaggi vs Hatton wouldn't have made sense in mainland Europe, so why is America the only other option for Kessler vs Calzaghe?

[Dioufy]

Sg,

Of course Froch wanted the fight over here, but Taylor didn't want that, so instead of dumping the fight on its arse, like Calzaghe would've done, he went over to Yankland and made Taylor see stars. That's what a true champion is all about.

Do what's necessary.

Did the right think business wise? Froch would've made a lot more money fighting someone ranked 13 in Nottingham than he did fighting Taylor. He didn't get a whole heap of cash for fighting Taylor - he took the short end of the stick.

[Dioufy]

You tell me one fighter that doesn't like/prefer fighting in front of his own fans against very good fighters? The fact that Froch didn't get granted this but took the fight anyway speak volumes for the guy's will and confidence. If Calzaghe had to go to the USA to fight Lacy, do you think he would've done. And please don't say yes, as that would be bullcrap.