Who was the Greatest Defensive Master of All Time???

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 11 Aug 2004, 11:49

Who was the greatest master boxer of all Time??? That is a hard one.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 11 Aug 2004, 11:53

I surely put Willie Pep, Muhammad Ali, Benny Leonard, Joe Gans, Chris Byrd, Cory Spinks, Nicolino Locche, and others, but I had a computer ERROR!!!

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 11 Aug 2004, 11:55

Another that would have been a CLASSIC!!! I will go with Sanchez by decision in 15 rounds.

ThirdPartyView · Post by **ThirdPartyView** » 11 Aug 2004, 12:34

Don't forget to add Young Griffo to the mix... ;)

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 11 Aug 2004, 13:10

To me, to be a defensive master you can have great defense even when your youthful reflexes fade. Whitaker was a defensive marvel in his prime but it was a style which relied completly on his athleticism, and if he had fought on through his 30s he would've not been able to avoid punches very well like he did in his prime, as seen in the Trinidad fight.

I would say the top 3 defensive masters are Charles Burley, Willie Pep, and Jack Johnson.

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 11 Aug 2004, 14:35

Byrd a great defensive master? This is a guy whose best win came over David Tua. Hes now been outpointed in my book by Golota, Klitchko, and Oquendo. and knocked out by Ibeabuchi. Not to mention his fight with a mummified Holyfield fighting with one arm was a lot closer than any supposed defensive master should boast of.

As for Spinks, if running and defense are the same thing then you might as well add Carl Lewis to that list as well.

topman · Post by **topman** » 12 Aug 2004, 22:23

IM GOING WITH THE NEW ERA ON THIS ONE,BOXING TODAY IS THOUGHT AT A FASTER PACE.IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER. PERNEL WHITIKER,ROY JONES JR(NEVER MIND WHAT HAPPENED AGAINST TARVER,HE WAS BARELY TOUCHED IN THE 50 FIGHTS PRIOR), FLOYD MAYWEATHER, AND JAMES TONEY

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 13 Aug 2004, 15:04

What???...Nobody is going to mention Sugar Ray Robinson???

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 13 Aug 2004, 16:18

Sweet Scientist wrote:What???...Nobody is going to mention Sugar Ray Robinson???

I do not think in my opinion that the original Sugar Man was a defensive master fighter. He was outboxed by guys like Randy Turpin and Ralph "Tiger" Jones. I also believe that Kid Gavilan beat Robinson in one of those fights, but in my opinion, Robinson might have won by something called POLITICS. Robinson HAD TROUBLES WITH SLICK FIGHTERS.

Robinson to me is one of the best all around fighters and one of the best offensive warriors in history.
THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION!!!

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 13 Aug 2004, 16:25

Robinsons fight with Jones was after a huge layoff when he was well past his best and his fight with Turpin was at the end of a long orgy in Europe and he came back knock out Turpin. Again, the Turpin fight was when Robinson was past his best.

What are you basing your claims of his defeat of Gavilan on?

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 13 Aug 2004, 16:41

klompton wrote:Robinsons fight with Jones was after a huge layoff when he was well past his best and his fight with Turpin was at the end of a long orgy in Europe and he came back knock out Turpin. Again, the Turpin fight was when Robinson was past his best.

What are you basing your claims of his defeat of Gavilan on?

First of all, Robinson was getting whupped and outclassed also in the second Turpin fight in New York. Thanks for the referee that told Sugar Ray that he was going to stop the fight if he did not pressed. Well, the rest is history, Robinson won by a desperate KO in the 11th or tenth I believe.

There are some sources of people that saw that fight that Gavilan clearly won one of the fights. I do not remeber which one. But they threw BOOS at the decision. Like the great Pernell Whitaker, Kid Gavilan was also victim of bad decisions.

With Tiger Jones, yeah, he was coming from a layoff, but the bottom line was that he was outboxed and whupped. Robinson had problem with slicksters. He was the best of all time, I do not disagree on that, but he was not a defensive genius like the masters Whitaker, Benitez, Harold Johnson, Ken Buchanan, Hilario Zapata, Pep, Miguel Canto nor Hector Acero-Sanchez to name a few.

Even the greats Muhammad Ali or Roy Jones, Jr. had better defense than the greatest p4p Sugar Ray Robinson

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 13 Aug 2004, 17:59

Why do you post everything in bold letters...do you require extra attention or something???

JC · Post by JC » 13 Aug 2004, 18:40

Whether you include Ali or not I suppose depends on what you mean by defensive skill. Early in his career he was very hard to land a punch on, but IMO this was more because he was able to use his speed and movement to get out of trouble. As George Foreman says on his website when Ali lost his speed it showed that he had never really developed a great defence. IMO it is greater defensive skill to block a jab, the ability to judge the distance and lean out of range says more about Ali's remarkable physical gifts than his mastery of defensive skill.

babyhuey · Post by **babyhuey** » 14 Aug 2004, 00:52

i believe pernell was the master of defence, but im supprised nobody has mentioned JAMES TONEY yet,
i have never seen a better fighter on the ropes than toney.

babyhuey · Post by **babyhuey** » 14 Aug 2004, 00:54

did i just read someone mentioning roy jones??
roys defence was speed, he has terrable defence,
he only got away with it because he was so fast.

topman · Post by **topman** » 14 Aug 2004, 13:55

babyhuey,i did mention james toney,i also mentioned roy jones,u say hes defence is based on speed,look at the fights u have of jones,and see how many times he has his back on the ropes.then look how many shots land on the target area.not many.fights like ruiz,sosa,and telesco,

babyhuey · Post by **babyhuey** » 14 Aug 2004, 15:41

topman wrote:babyhuey,i did mention james toney,i also mentioned roy jones,u say hes defence is based on speed,look at the fights u have of jones,and see how many times he has his back on the ropes.then look how many shots land on the target area.not many.fights like ruiz,sosa,and telesco,

my bad, i see your toney post now,
but as for jones
yes he would pull back on the ropes but i believe he was just being lazy or catching his breath or possably letting the other guy lose his,
eather way jones does everything wrong as a defensive fighter
(note:i am a jones fan) whats he do so special on the ropes?
pulls back?

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 14 Aug 2004, 20:32

Anyone who says Jones and Toney are the best on the ropes has never seen a prime Benitez fight off the ropes. The man was untouchable. Period. Im not talking about blocking and picking off punches, I mean you could not hit him. Now thats defense. The man was a wizard. Hell Jones only looks decent because he only fights super-bums.

babyhuey · Post by **babyhuey** » 14 Aug 2004, 22:01

klompton wrote:Anyone who says Jones and Toney are the best on the ropes has never seen a prime Benitez fight off the ropes. The man was untouchable. Period. Im not talking about blocking and picking off punches, I mean you could not hit him. Now thats defense. The man was a wizard. Hell Jones only looks decent because he only fights super-bums.

he fights super bums?? whats a super bum??

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 15 Aug 2004, 02:18

Garbage men, rent-a-cops, and the guy who cleans my pool...

Roll With The Punches · Post by **Roll With The Punches** » 15 Aug 2004, 13:48

why the hell is Ali's name even mentioned with these guys??

topman · Post by **topman** » 15 Aug 2004, 18:53

klompton,i wouldnt say hopkins,and toney qualify as being super-bums. ali never had a great defence,he had a great chin

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 15 Aug 2004, 19:22

I wouldnt say simply beating Toney and Hopkins qualifies you as one of the greatest defensive masters of all time.

babyhuey · Post by **babyhuey** » 15 Aug 2004, 19:58

according to mr. miagi, (karate kids master)
"the best way to block a punch is to no be there,"
??? not sure how that pertains to this, but,
it sounds pretty cool...

Who was the Greatest Defensive Master of All Time???

Who is The Greatest Defensive Master of All Time???

Who was the Greatest Defensive Master of All Time???

Featherweights: Salvador Sanchez vs Alexis Arguello

BYrd and Spinks????

what???

Re: what???

nah

Re: nah

klompton

topman