Calzaghe or Hatton in the history books?

[Autobarn]

.not sure about that. didn't showtime have a warren contract and get stuck showing calzaghe mismatches among others for a time anyway...in articles centred on showtime's "great fights, no rights" policy, the warren (and by implication joe) mismatches always get mentioned as to why showtime are more interested in buying fights than fighters.

also, jay larkin did say joe wasn't ready for big fights, on the "strength" of either the fight with starie or reid - i can't remember which

not sure that jones or hopkins would have fought king kong for the right deal - both have had pretty long cautious spells themselves. closest RJJ got to fighting someone of king kong's size he demanded $40m to fight lewis, and apparently faked a broken hand motorbike injury when he decided against going for corrie sanders' WBO strap...

Larkin was alot more interested in Joe than he was say Junior Witter who he used to really bash. Even in the Starie fight, Larkin would stress he was a believer in his talent. I am sure he would have been accepted had he taken the fight on the terms other "opponent" style title challengers to Jones/Hopkins would have. Larkin saying I don't think Joe is ready, is different to Larkin saying TV are not interested. Off course it was more worthy than say Jones vs Grant.

Yes, I am not defending Jones and Hopkins, they also lost on big fights through greed - Michaelsweski is a huge blow for Jones.... although Roy countered that by doing another challenge and stepping up to heavyweight. They would have fought anyone for the right deal, and unfortunately - they called the shots... they were the champions.

i don't even think joe had to fight jones or hopkins. it does piss me off that he got the fights only when he was pretty certain to win. i don't think joe became a complete fighter until he had to deal with tricky old spoiling fighters, rjj and hopkins...when he retired, it was a great "what if" for me. he looked big and strong vs jones, i thought there was going to be something more, then 0, like the vaunted 0 in his record.

if joe had managed to attract some kind of good fight -- something that could be hyped above its station ala lacy - such as danny green, mundine, ottke, beyer, frankie liles, whatever -- i think he'd have enjoyed a better profile earlier and would have picked up some excellent experience, enough to make him a complete fighter and ready for big fights.

it's hard to talk about history when a fighter like joe has had such a cautious career. i hope the joe fans, friends, colleagues, whatever don't get upset about him not being regarded as an amazing ultra legend. we've been banging on about it on here that something more needed to be done.

hopefully (for him) that kessler win starts to look much better. kessler being very good, but has yet gone on to do little.

[fist]

.not sure about that. didn't showtime have a warren contract and get stuck showing calzaghe mismatches among others for a time anyway...in articles centred on showtime's "great fights, no rights" policy, the warren (and by implication joe) mismatches always get mentioned as to why showtime are more interested in buying fights than fighters.

also, jay larkin did say joe wasn't ready for big fights, on the "strength" of either the fight with starie or reid - i can't remember which

not sure that jones or hopkins would have fought king kong for the right deal - both have had pretty long cautious spells themselves. closest RJJ got to fighting someone of king kong's size he demanded $40m to fight lewis, and apparently faked a broken hand motorbike injury when he decided against going for corrie sanders' WBO strap...

Larkin was alot more interested in Joe than he was say Junior Witter who he used to really bash. Even in the Starie fight, Larkin would stress he was a believer in his talent. I am sure he would have been accepted had he taken the fight on the terms other "opponent" style title challengers to Jones/Hopkins would have. Larkin saying I don't think Joe is ready, is different to Larkin saying TV are not interested. Off course it was more worthy than say Jones vs Grant.

Yes, I am not defending Jones and Hopkins, they also lost on big fights through greed - Michaelsweski is a huge blow for Jones.... although Roy countered that by doing another challenge and stepping up to heavyweight. They would have fought anyone for the right deal, and unfortunately - they called the shots... they were the champions.

i don't even think joe had to fight jones or hopkins. it does piss me off that he got the fights only when he was pretty certain to win. i don't think joe became a complete fighter until he had to deal with tricky old spoiling fighters, rjj and hopkins...when he retired, it was a great "what if" for me. he looked big and strong vs jones, i thought there was going to be something more, then 0, like the vaunted 0 in his record.

if joe had managed to attract some kind of good fight -- something that could be hyped above its station ala lacy - such as danny green, mundine, ottke, beyer, frankie liles, whatever -- i think he'd have enjoyed a better profile earlier and would have picked up some excellent experience, enough to make him a complete fighter and ready for big fights.

it's hard to talk about history when a fighter like joe has had such a cautious career. i hope the joe fans, friends, colleagues, whatever don't get upset about him not being regarded as an amazing ultra legend. we've been banging on about it on here that something more needed to be done.

hopefully (for him) that kessler win starts to look much better. kessler being very good, but has yet gone on to do little.

Kessler win already looks great on his record and cements his legacy.

[Dioufy]

Gobbles, find me a link that states that Thornberry was mandatory challenger, please.

Thornberry's six opponents' records before he fought Calzaghe were...

5-26-1
18-23-5
1-0-0
5-17-0
0-2-0
6-3-0

If that got him a mandatory position then I am DG's kidnapper.

Although it is the WBO after all.

[glahn]

Calzaghe was the superior pugilist for me.

[gobbles]

Gobbles, find me a link that states that Thornberry was mandatory challenger, please.

Thornberry's six opponents' records before he fought Calzaghe were...

5-26-1
18-23-5
1-0-0
5-17-0
0-2-0
6-3-0

If that got him a mandatory position then I am DG's kidnapper.

Although it is the WBO after all.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _56470213/

Not too many as essentially it pre-dates the internet.


Here's the Sun preview:

JOE CALZAGHE has been put in a no-win situation by bungling boxing bosses.
Calzaghe defends his WBO super-middleweight title against Aussie Rick Thornberry in Cardiff tonight.
Yet no one but WBO officials see mandatory challenger Thornberry as being equipped for the job.
Calzaghe, unbeaten in 26 fights, says he'll take the no-hoper out in three rounds - but the only reaction will be: "So what?"
Thornberry, with two defeats in 25, turned to boxing despite dad Trevor almost dying in the ring 28 years ago.
He was left in a coma and then a wheelchair and Rick said: "Dad would love to be here to see me fight Calzaghe, but he couldn't possibly cope with the long trip.
"Mum didn't want me to have anything to do with boxing, but I was determined."

[Dioufy]

I think my respect for the WBO has gone done a notch, even though I thought it couldn't get any lower. Joke.

[Autobarn]

Cazlaghe will go down in history for his quick wit, bright personality and willingness to fight the best.

The stats don't lie!

[Mr. Untouchable]

Hatton had the greater career (not that it's necessarily over yet). Even a faded KT is a better win on his record than any of Cal's victories. Kessler is, undoubtedly, the best victory JC can claim, but even he is largely unproven at top level.

If the 2008 version of Jones could deck - and hurt - Calzaghe early, the prime RJ may well have finished him more quickly than Manny demolished Ricky. A younger, slightly more energetic BHop would have easily decisioned him. Had he faced the elite in their prime, he would now be regarded as an "Ordinary Joe".

i think JC win over Bhop is better than Hattonsover KT, cause they were both elite and BHOP has had some good wins since his loss, too prove he aint shot where as KT never fought again

they both fought there share of bums but i think JC came good over the last 3 years and has gone beyond what hatton did in the ring

By judging from Kostya's fight before Hatton and in the fight itself, Tszyu was nowhere near shot. The fact that he never came back to fight again means nothing because it was his decision to make and it was based on his age more than his performances. Hatton was young, hungry and wouldn't be denied that night. I doubt there was another 140lber in the world then or since that could have beaten Kostya that night.

[banjo]

Hatton had the greater career (not that it's necessarily over yet). Even a faded KT is a better win on his record than any of Cal's victories. Kessler is, undoubtedly, the best victory JC can claim, but even he is largely unproven at top level.

If the 2008 version of Jones could deck - and hurt - Calzaghe early, the prime RJ may well have finished him more quickly than Manny demolished Ricky. A younger, slightly more energetic BHop would have easily decisioned him. Had he faced the elite in their prime, he would now be regarded as an "Ordinary Joe".

i think JC win over Bhop is better than Hattonsover KT, cause they were both elite and BHOP has had some good wins since his loss, too prove he aint shot where as KT never fought again

they both fought there share of bums but i think JC came good over the last 3 years and has gone beyond what hatton did in the ring

By judging from Kostya's fight before Hatton and in the fight itself, Tszyu was nowhere near shot. The fact that he never came back to fight again means nothing because it was his decision to make and it was based on his age more than his performances. Hatton was young, hungry and wouldn't be denied that night. I doubt there was another 140lber in the world then or since that could have beaten Kostya that night.

I agree with you in that he wasn't shot but I don't think he was the fighter he used to be before his injury, it's hard to tell with the Mitchell fight because Kostya blew him away so easily but then again Mitchell never has been the sturdiest of fighters has he? Also around the time that Hatton beat Kostya I believe Mayweather and Cotto would have beaten KT, I'd have even given Gatti a chance as well.

[Autobarn]

mayweather hadn't matured physically into 140 yet, gatti was never tszyu's level and cotto had yet to move on from being a weight drained WBO champ

hatton did well to get KT ageing and in manchester. still a massive night and a big performance. something that not even hatton could top - he never seemed to be the same fighter again, himself. the style of hatton - combined with the locale - all appeared to be bad news for a great champ who was cashing his way out

[J]

banjo cotto was within spitting distance of getting stopped and was smashed around by Torres, he wouldnt have lived with Kostya at 140 at that time.

lets not revise history.

[Finn]

Hatton had the greater career (not that it's necessarily over yet). Even a faded KT is a better win on his record than any of Cal's victories. Kessler is, undoubtedly, the best victory JC can claim, but even he is largely unproven at top level.

If the 2008 version of Jones could deck - and hurt - Calzaghe early, the prime RJ may well have finished him more quickly than Manny demolished Ricky. A younger, slightly more energetic BHop would have easily decisioned him. Had he faced the elite in their prime, he would now be regarded as an "Ordinary Joe".

Roy Jones Jr is the US version of Nas. Never beat anyone worth talking about. Calzaghe would have demolished him, Calzaghe was no spring chicken when he faught Jones, people talk like Calzaghe was in his prime when he took his last ever fight against Jones.

[Dioufy]

Calzaghe was still in his prime when he faced Jones. Regardless of Jones' inadequacies, I still didn't see signs of Calzaghe slipping.

[gobbles]

Calzaghe was still in his prime when he faced Jones. Regardless of Jones' inadequacies, I still didn't see signs of Calzaghe slipping.

The first round was a sign that he was slipping. His punch resistance was going.

[stujones]

Hatton had the greater career (not that it's necessarily over yet). Even a faded KT is a better win on his record than any of Cal's victories. Kessler is, undoubtedly, the best victory JC can claim, but even he is largely unproven at top level.

If the 2008 version of Jones could deck - and hurt - Calzaghe early, the prime RJ may well have finished him more quickly than Manny demolished Ricky. A younger, slightly more energetic BHop would have easily decisioned him. Had he faced the elite in their prime, he would now be regarded as an "Ordinary Joe".

Roy Jones Jr is the US version of Nas. Never beat anyone worth talking about. Calzaghe would have demolished him, Calzaghe was no spring chicken when he faught Jones, people talk like Calzaghe was in his prime when he took his last ever fight against Jones.

Ever heard of James Toney or Bernard Hopkins?

[Mr. Untouchable]

do you really hold his win over bernard hopkins in high esteem?

Do you not?

Based on history, any win over Bernard is a stellar one. Nobody beat him in his prime years excepy Jones. In fact, that's the only loss in B-hops career he fess's up to. By your theory everyone should just ignore Calzaghe's win over him even more. Hopkins was 43 at the time for crying out loud. See how that works now?

[Mr. Untouchable]

Based on history, any win over Bernard is a stellar one. Nobody beat him in his prime years excepy Jones. In fact, that's the only loss in B-hops career he fess's up to. By your theory everyone should just ignore Calzaghe's win over him even more. Hopkins was 43 at the time for crying out loud. See how that works now?

what theory of mine?

By what you said it seems like your thinking that a prime win over B-hop is not so impressive and my response was that you are making it seem as though Calzaghe beating him was no big deal also. I happen to not agree with that. I think that Taylor beat B-hop solely based on style matchup but Jones actually really beat him on every level and Calzaghe beat him comfortably, even if it was later in his career. There was no debating the Jones-Hopkins scores and if you saw the fight, you would realize that Jones was fighting one handed for much of the fight. Yes, That's very impressive. That's two HOF wins Jones has when he was green himself. No way to discredit that win considering nobody beat Hopkins for another 11 years and that was controversially.

[Mr. Untouchable]

all i said was 'do you hold rjj win over hopkins in high esteem' i never mentioned calzaghe, i don't think rjj win was as impressive as a win would have been in 2000,2001,2002, i dont think hopkins was in his prime in 1993. would you hold hopkins beating rjj now in as high of esteem?

Sure I hold that win in high regard. Hops was young but still a great fighter as he proved by going undefeated and racking up 20 title defenses after Jones beat him with virtually one hand. Roy would have always beaten B-hop. It was a style thing and in his prime nobody beat Roy Jones. And if Hopkins beating Jones now gives him little credit that's okay, but I think the boxing experts would have to say that when Jones-Hopkins fought they were both green. It must be said though, that Jones was younger and in terms of being pro, just as green since they both had around the same number of fights against equal competition. If they peaked at the same time then the win was impressive and Jones got better as the years went on as well. He would have probably KO'd B-hop in 2000-02 with both hands to use.

Note* Hopkins knew Jones was trouble for him that's why he was unwilling to fight him for a 60/40 split to the winner. Hopkins has just gotten interested in the Jones sweepstakes since it is apparent that Roy is nowhere near the superman he used to be. Back in 99-03 B-hop wanted a 50/50 when Jones held a win over him and was P4P #1. That just don't happen. That's like Marquez getting a 50/50 split with Pacquiao now.

[states]

Roy Jones Jr is the US version of Nas. Never beat anyone worth talking about. Calzaghe would have demolished him, Calzaghe was no spring chicken when he faught Jones, people talk like Calzaghe was in his prime when he took his last ever fight against Jones.

You have to be on a wind-up. Jones, when he was in his pomp, was as close to unbeatable as I've ever seen. He'd have smashed Calzaghe to bits, if Joe had had Hatton's balls, and actually stepped up to fight him.

[Mr. Untouchable]

Roy Jones Jr is the US version of Nas. Never beat anyone worth talking about. Calzaghe would have demolished him, Calzaghe was no spring chicken when he faught Jones, people talk like Calzaghe was in his prime when he took his last ever fight against Jones.

You have to be on a wind-up. Jones, when he was in his pomp, was as close to unbeatable as I've ever seen. He'd have smashed Calzaghe to bits, if Joe had had Hatton's balls, and actually stepped up to fight him.

Hatton balls+Mayweather/Hopkins defense+Jones' skills+Calzaghe's chin=Perfect fighter.

P.S. I agree perfectly to that post. Spot on.

[Dioufy]

Surely Calzaghe was in his prime when he fought Jones. He seemed as confident as I have ever seen him.

[Mr. Untouchable]

Surely Calzaghe was in his prime when he fought Jones. He seemed as confident as I have ever seen him.

That's what people don't realize. A fighters prime is not always based solely on their age. Jones was a world champ 4 years before Joe held a title, a pro 8 years, has way more fights against top competition and has moved around weight classes. That takes it's toll and no doubt Roy was way, way more worse for wear than Calzaghe was when they fought, not to mention 3-4 years older. No doubt in my mind Joe was still prime while Roy was nowhere near his.

[observer1]

Roy Jones Jr is the US version of Nas. Never beat anyone worth talking about. Calzaghe would have demolished him, Calzaghe was no spring chicken when he faught Jones, people talk like Calzaghe was in his prime when he took his last ever fight against Jones.

You have to be on a wind-up. Jones, when he was in his pomp, was as close to unbeatable as I've ever seen. He'd have smashed Calzaghe to bits, if Joe had had Hatton's balls, and actually stepped up to fight him.

Hatton balls+Mayweather/Hopkins defense+Jones' skills+Calzaghe's chin=Perfect fighter.

P.S. I agree perfectly to that post. Spot on.

Calzaghe's chin?

lol?

He got floored in the first round by an old man and a shot to bits RJJ.

Hopkins has the best chin of the lot.

[Mr. Untouchable]

Calzaghe's chin?

lol?

He got floored in the first round by an old man and a shot to bits RJJ.

Hopkins has the best chin of the lot.

Calzaghe has been down 3 times by good shots and recovered rather instantly. He's got a world class chin. No way he retires 46-0 without one.

Also: Hopkins doesn't get hit flush so nobody really knows how good his chin is/was. Name a time when he has really been hit solidly to rate his whiskers. Savy?

[Dioufy]

Calzaghe's chin is pretty good - it's wrong to say otherwise.