holyfield vs lewis prime vs prime

jezzamundo
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Re: holyfield vs lewis prime vs prime

Post by jezzamundo »

- Hate is pointing out inconsistencies in the record, the dirty tactics adopted as skills and reflexes faded and the role of PEDs in his career?

The man has been unable to obtain a boxing license in home country for many years now, yet the dribbling on about how he's being robbed and still fighting at a high level keeps the puddle refreshed daily.

He's no Mr. Popkins who at least has a veneer of reflexes left and is a cunning ring strategist. He is no George Foreman knocking big strong prime heavies around like bowling pins. He's a mummy propped up by an ex mobster for shameless exhibition in support of his decade long WBA racket.

The only legit loss Lewis has on his record is to Rahman who kept him down for the full count. The McCall fight was a typical King fiasco, and I'd have thought Bowe was long exposed as the big dummy he was. He was considered lazy and damaged goods coming out of the Olympics and only managed to hold title briefly.

Lewis is superior in every measure to the both of them and I say that as someone not caring much for the Lewis style. At one time Mr. Field was a hero who became a legend to kids kicked around by bullies with his dramatic Tyson upset. I don't see anything heroic by keeping him propped up and cheering him on to a bad end and I mean to say so.

I gave him his due at his best between 89-91. The first Tyson fight a classic, but also that fight stands out in stark contrast to previous poor performances, leaving a door ajar to a roomful of questions about his career, but apparently it's heresy to suggest Mr. Field is anything but superhuman.
I agree with some of what you say here, particularly the fact that Holyfield SHOULD NOT still be boxing today. He is being given title shots ahead of more worthy challengers and is the best part of two decades past his best. I'll take back the hate comment, but I think that you are letting Holyfield's current ongoings taint your view of his past.

It is silly to say that Lewis beats Holyfield 98 times out of 100 any time past '91. I'm sure you agree that Lewis was in his prime years when they finally faced off, and Holyfield, while still formidale, clearly past his. I think that had Lewis fought to his potential he could (and should) have won the fights more comfortably than he did. However, their second fight was undeniably close, I score it 115-113 to Lewis but many score it to Holyfield by a similar margin. If a post prime Holy could be so competitive with a prime Lewis, who is to say that he wouldn't have beaten him in the mid 90s?

For the record, I rate Lewis as the 7th greatest heavyweight of all-time, and Holyfield 11th.
BroughtonRulesRefuge
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Re: holyfield vs lewis prime vs prime

Post by BroughtonRulesRefuge »

jezzamundo wrote: I agree with some of what you say here, particularly the fact that Holyfield SHOULD NOT still be boxing today. He is being given title shots ahead of more worthy challengers and is the best part of two decades past his best. I'll take back the hate comment, but I think that you are letting Holyfield's current ongoings taint your view of his past.

It is silly to say that Lewis beats Holyfield 98 times out of 100 any time past '91. I'm sure you agree that Lewis was in his prime years when they finally faced off, and Holyfield, while still formidale, clearly past his. I think that had Lewis fought to his potential he could (and should) have won the fights more comfortably than he did. However, their second fight was undeniably close, I score it 115-113 to Lewis but many score it to Holyfield by a similar margin. If a post prime Holy could be so competitive with a prime Lewis, who is to say that he wouldn't have beaten him in the mid 90s?

For the record, I rate Lewis as the 7th greatest heavyweight of all-time, and Holyfield 11th.
- Lewis could've won more comfortably, but he has to be pushed into a dogfight, and Mr. Field lacked the strength, skills, or strategy to push him.

I would point out that Lewis never lost a dogfight. His two losses were early one punch losses in fights he was feeling comfortable in. Maybe 98/100 is an exaggeration, but the only big guy Field beat was an out of shape Big Dummy and he still had his hands full for a majority decision and knocked out in the rubber.

Mr. Field looked like a zillion bucks after turning heavy up to the Foreman fight. Foreman was smart matchmaking as far as turning a buck, but Foreman surprised a lot people and took a lot out of him. He's hanging on for dear life by the end of the match and barely able to register a KO from that point forward. That's why I picked 91 as the cut off point, invincible until then, and very vulnerable afterward.

He ends up fighting strong comp through the 90s after a series of weak defenses, but Lewis was being ignored by Field for the longest time, and was ducked by Bowe and Tyson. Big George even did a little softshoe around the subject. The equivalent would be Liston being ignored by Patterson while being ducked by Williams, Machen, and Folley. Liston's record and abilities wouldn't be so greatly touted as he is currently credited. Critics would complain that Williams would knock him out and Machen/Folley would outbox him. They have to fight to prove it, and overall, Lewis is fighting and beating the best in the 90s: Ocasio, undefeated Gary Mason, Weaver, Biggs, McCrory, Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno, McCallx2, Morrison, undefeated Akinwande, Mercer, "Undefeated" Golota, Briggs, Field x2, going 15-1-1, a pretty good career mark by itself.

There's no denying that Mr. Field is superior to McCall and Rahman who were uneven fighters much like Field, but the way that Lewis lost to them is not Field's strong suit, a one punch right hand, nor would outboxing Lewis play into Mr. Field's strong suit.

Nothing wrong with the notion that he could beat Lewis prime to prime, it's just that it seems that would be more of a fluke type of fight that could never be duplicated by my reckoning.

Maybe I deserve to be taken to task by disrespecting Mr. Field, but as a former supporter, I'm appalled how he and his fan's have been carrying on and it's forced me to take a harder, more realistic look at his career. Did the same thing with Ali. At least I don't call fighters bums and stiffs. Every fighter has his place, so I'm making amends for not previously recognizing Lewis. I also get on Lennox for the manner that he retired, but that was just a blip.
jezzamundo
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Re: holyfield vs lewis prime vs prime

Post by jezzamundo »

Good post.

I agree with everything you have to say about Lewis, and most of Holyfield. Only problem is the closest Lewis and Holyfield ever got to being in a dogfight was in the middle rounds of their second fight, most of which Holyfield won and he was hurting Lewis quite regularly. I think Lewis's best option is to use his reach, throw 40+ stiff jabs per round, and make use of the right uppercut when Holyfield gets in close. He did this for some rounds, but when he neglected his jab, Holyfield gave him troubles.
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Re: holyfield vs lewis prime vs prime

Post by Roco »

Prime for Prime I'd have to favour Holyfield. At his best he was capable of much more than Lewis and IMO won their second fight.
gregor
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Re: holyfield vs lewis prime vs prime

Post by gregor »

I would go with Holy as well.

Saying things like "Lewis would've won 98 out of 100" is definitely an overstatement, as he lost two of his 40 fights to much worse opponentsthan Holy. Someone said also Holyfield had go through fire when fighting live body, but Lewis did not always look that spectacular either. For example, the fight with Mercer which could easily go either way, losing with Bruno before the stoppage or his performance against Briggs.

Past-prime Holy could give prime Lewis good fight in rematch. You can easily imagine prime Holy would've won at least one or two rounds more.
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:- In 94 Mr. Field ushered himself and his "hardened" heart into retirement after being caned by Moorer. Sweet Mother of Mars Bars, he can't even touch Moorer, and now you got him KOing Lewis?
I wouldn't go as far as saying Holy would KO Lewis (although IMO he would've a chance), but we are talking "prime vs prime", which means Holy without hepatisis, heart problems or whatever. You may say it looks strange (usually boxer's prime is not something which turns on and off many times) and that is true, but that is another problem.
dempseyfire
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Re: holyfield vs lewis prime vs prime

Post by dempseyfire »

Funny how a definitely not healthy Holyfield couldn't 'touch' Moorer but somehow managed to knock him down . . . :TU:
gregor
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Re: holyfield vs lewis prime vs prime

Post by gregor »

If one of the judges scored this round even (I hope my memory serves well) it means there were definitely people under impression that "he couldn't touch him" ;-)
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Re: holyfield vs lewis prime vs prime

Post by jont »

Holyfield was a huge dissapointment for me as...Holy was a great fighter trained hard and gave it his all every time he fought...however...besides his win over Tyson i think he was overrated...he fought Larry Holmes...George Foreman.. when he first became champ.... lost his fights to Riddick Bowe.... felt like he was the one who benefitted from the Fan Man when he beat Riddick..Bert Cooper ..lost to John Ruiz Chris Byrd James Toney and Larry Donald besides the Lewis defeats... his greatest feats was beating Tysons Ass and whooping up the crusiers.... Lewis was better in my opinion and when Lewis beat Holy he got better afterwards....
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Re: holyfield vs lewis prime vs prime

Post by Ambling Alp »

Holyfield was way, way past his best his best when he fought Ruiz,Byrd,Toney, and Donald. Those fights aren't important when evaluating him. He between 38 and 42 years old for those fights!

He was at his best as a heavyweight well before he even fought Tyson. Watch his fights against Tillis,Thomas, Dokes, Stewart.
Holyfield fought two great fights against Bowe. He had a few off nights, but Holyfield was a great fighter.
BroughtonRulesRefuge
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Re: holyfield vs lewis prime vs prime

Post by BroughtonRulesRefuge »

Ambling Alp wrote:Holyfield was way, way past his best his best when he fought Ruiz,Byrd,Toney, and Donald. Those fights aren't important when evaluating him. He between 38 and 42 years old for those fights!
- As long as fanboys are out in force, keeping the corpse propped up in the ring while insisting on title shots, and claiming he's being robbed, these fights are damning to both him and the likes of your fan club.
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Re: holyfield vs lewis prime vs prime

Post by My2Sense »

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
- As long as fanboys are out in force, keeping the corpse propped up in the ring while insisting on title shots, and claiming he's being robbed, these fights are damning to both him and the likes of your fan club.
Why? You're talking about two different issues. Whether or not he is/was past his prime is totally independent of whether or not he was robbed in a fight.
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Re: holyfield vs lewis prime vs prime

Post by My2Sense »

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
Sweet Mother of Mars Bars, he can't even touch Moorer, and now you got him KOing Lewis?
"Can't even touch" Moorer??

He DROPPED him and lost a disputed split decision.

How is that "not touching" a fighter??
BroughtonRulesRefuge
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Re: holyfield vs lewis prime vs prime

Post by BroughtonRulesRefuge »

My2Sense wrote: "Can't even touch" Moorer??

He DROPPED him and lost a disputed split decision.

How is that "not touching" a fighter??
- Congratulations, you're the first and only person I've ever heard complain about the decision.

It was a majority decision and so what if he had Moorer down early in the fight? He couldn't do a thing with him. His stamina and performance was so bad that he retired for a year, blaming a hard heart and had sympathy and condolences flowing out his kazoo.

Then he comes back claiming to be healed by God Almighty and after another beat down by a lost the plot Bowe, suddenly has more vim and vigour than his entire youth combined and KOs Tyson in a slug fest?

Listen up Jack and do try to follow the plot line. I responded to the poster claiming the '94 version of Mr. Field would beat Lewis. Well children, they do say the darnedest things don't they?
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