Your opinions!!!
Middleweights: Ezzard Charles vs Sugar Ray Robinson
-
elmersalsa
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 15653
- Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 03:50
Middleweights: Ezzard Charles vs Sugar Ray Robinson
Surely this one is dream matchup. In the 1940s, they were 2 of the best of the decade. Did Robinson ever ducked Charles when Charles was a middleweight??? Or did Charles ever ducked Robinson??? This one is hard one for me
Your opinions!!!
Your opinions!!!
-
dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
dempseyfire has it. they were never middleweights at the same time. ezzard didn't stay long at middle....grew into his greatest years at 171 in just a short time. As a middle, his first loss was to the clever southpaw ken overlin who was much to experienced for him, fought a draw in a rematch and...in his own words "froze....he showed me things I'd never seen" against the veteran kid tunero.
robinson was beating welters when he was still a lightweight and beating middleweights when he was still a welter.
there was a time..when ezzard was heavyweight champion and so underrated and robinson was going to challenge joey maxim for the lightheavy title when some sports writer asked robinson if he beat maxim would he then challenge charles and the sugar man said "Hey...you trying to get me killed?"
Two of the greatest of the greats of all time...but they were never in the same division at the same time.
robinson was beating welters when he was still a lightweight and beating middleweights when he was still a welter.
there was a time..when ezzard was heavyweight champion and so underrated and robinson was going to challenge joey maxim for the lightheavy title when some sports writer asked robinson if he beat maxim would he then challenge charles and the sugar man said "Hey...you trying to get me killed?"
Two of the greatest of the greats of all time...but they were never in the same division at the same time.
-
elmersalsa
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 15653
- Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 03:50
I agree with you in this one. But do you think Robinson never wanted to fight Charles??? A lot of people would be upset if someone in here would say he did ducked "The Cincinnati Cobra"Jaclem wrote:
there was a time..when ezzard was heavyweight champion and so underrated and robinson was going to challenge joey maxim for the lightheavy title when some sports writer asked robinson if he beat maxim would he then challenge charles and the sugar man said "Hey...you trying to get me killed?"
Two of the greatest of the greats of all time...but they were never in the same division at the same time.
-
dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
But with the size differential you can't really say anyone was doing any 'ducking.' Even in the 1940s, a former lightweight was not expected to take on a HW champ. Charles although early in his career fought at middle was always a natural light HW. It'd be like someone claiming Dela Hoya is ducking Chris Byrd.elmersalsa wrote:I agree with you in this one. But do you think Robinson never wanted to fight Charles??? A lot of people would be upset if someone in here would say he did ducked "The Cincinnati Cobra"Jaclem wrote:
there was a time..when ezzard was heavyweight champion and so underrated and robinson was going to challenge joey maxim for the lightheavy title when some sports writer asked robinson if he beat maxim would he then challenge charles and the sugar man said "Hey...you trying to get me killed?"
Two of the greatest of the greats of all time...but they were never in the same division at the same time.
dempseyfire....right again. i wasn't implying that robinson was ducking charles.....he was just commenting on the foolishness of the question....assuming he could challenge a heavyweight.
in fact, it was pretty well known at the time that had he defeated maxim for the light heavy title he had no plans to defend it. he was in it more for the honor and probably would have retired if he had won. he felt he had a chance with maxim because joey wasn't a big puncher and the sugarman didn't intend to tangle with strong hard punching maulers in the 175 division....he just wasn't that big and strong. the act that he retired (for a while) after the maxim fight anyway seems to bear this out.
in fact, it was pretty well known at the time that had he defeated maxim for the light heavy title he had no plans to defend it. he was in it more for the honor and probably would have retired if he had won. he felt he had a chance with maxim because joey wasn't a big puncher and the sugarman didn't intend to tangle with strong hard punching maulers in the 175 division....he just wasn't that big and strong. the act that he retired (for a while) after the maxim fight anyway seems to bear this out.
-
elmersalsa
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 15653
- Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 03:50
I am glad of being in this forum. All of You guys certainly has excellent BOXING KNOWLEDGE and can back it up. This is probably the BEST BOXING FORUM I EVER BEEN!!!
But nobody has said who would have won this dream match at 160 lbs. Who had the edge. I read that Charles at 160 and 175 was as quick and fast as Robinson, but lost that KILLER INSTINCT, when he KILLED Sam Baroudi in 1948.
I also see that Charles beat Charley Burley at 160, but Burley was a welter at the time.
But nobody has said who would have won this dream match at 160 lbs. Who had the edge. I read that Charles at 160 and 175 was as quick and fast as Robinson, but lost that KILLER INSTINCT, when he KILLED Sam Baroudi in 1948.
I also see that Charles beat Charley Burley at 160, but Burley was a welter at the time.
-
Eric the Viking
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1354
- Joined: 03 Apr 2003, 21:40
...charles weighed 161 for the first burley fight, and burley was 155. it was a huge upset at the time, especially as charles came in as a late substitute....it may have been for ken overlin, but i'm not sure. charles won big....seven or eight rounds. in the rematch a month or so later, charles was 160 and burley a reported 151. same result.
the burley/robinson story has been around for a long time. there was a common rumor floating around that robinson's camp paid burley money not to push for a fight....the figures mentioned ranged from $50,000 to $100,000.....which sound too high to me ...especially the latter...to be plausible. plus....just because a rumor is common doesn't make it true.....so I suppose the story will remain just that....an unproven one.
..at around 171 charles was astonishingly fast and and aggresive....and ...as is so often and truthfully written....he changed after the baroudi tragedy.
the burley/robinson story has been around for a long time. there was a common rumor floating around that robinson's camp paid burley money not to push for a fight....the figures mentioned ranged from $50,000 to $100,000.....which sound too high to me ...especially the latter...to be plausible. plus....just because a rumor is common doesn't make it true.....so I suppose the story will remain just that....an unproven one.
..at around 171 charles was astonishingly fast and and aggresive....and ...as is so often and truthfully written....he changed after the baroudi tragedy.
Burley - Robinson
Robinson pulled out of two matches with Burley. One was agreed verbally and the other was actually scheduled for May 10th 1946. Burley beat 'Oakland' Billy Smith (a genuine light-heavy) over 10 in his last fight prior to that date.
Burley was recorded as being just over 160 for Smith, who was around 175. burleys best weight was around 154. His old sparring partner felt he was often lighter than the recorded weight, especially against naturally bigger fighters, because there was usualy a maximum weight differential stipulated.
For example, Burley was supposed to have weighed over 160 for JD Turner in 1942, but was closer to 150 with turner weighing close to 220.
Burley could have weighed around 150 for Robinson. Ray would have been naturally lighter around that time.
He was due to fight Ken Overlin, but the former champ withdrew. Fortunately the promoter - also Charles' manager (Jake Mintz) had his boy available.
For much more detail on Burley and his career, you could read my book 'Charley Burley and the Black Murderers' Row'.
Burley was recorded as being just over 160 for Smith, who was around 175. burleys best weight was around 154. His old sparring partner felt he was often lighter than the recorded weight, especially against naturally bigger fighters, because there was usualy a maximum weight differential stipulated.
For example, Burley was supposed to have weighed over 160 for JD Turner in 1942, but was closer to 150 with turner weighing close to 220.
Burley could have weighed around 150 for Robinson. Ray would have been naturally lighter around that time.
He was due to fight Ken Overlin, but the former champ withdrew. Fortunately the promoter - also Charles' manager (Jake Mintz) had his boy available.
For much more detail on Burley and his career, you could read my book 'Charley Burley and the Black Murderers' Row'.
boxscribe....very interesting and informative, with just one caveat....Jake Mintz didn't become charles's manager until much later than this...in fact, he came aboard when ezzard was fighting as a heavyweight. even then, he was more of a front man than actual manager.
others who are good authorites have told me that burley seldom came in over 155 pounds...and often less.
others who are good authorites have told me that burley seldom came in over 155 pounds...and often less.
Charles
Thanks for pointing that out. From what I read on this bout Mintz did have an 'interest' in Charles at that time. He was more widely known as a promoter than a manager though, so that was more likely his connection with Ezzard.
A number of people I interviewed that were personal friends of Burley's argue that he never weighed over 160 in his entire career. It apears this could have been true. that fact makes you have even more respect for Burley when you consider the fighters he met.
My interest in Burley is obvious. What is your interest in Charles? You obviously know a great deal about him. (is it you that is writing the book on Ez? Very long overdue!)
Could you possibly confirm that he was not unbeaten as an amateur as is usually reported. I read that he was beaten in a national final prior to winning the following year.
A number of people I interviewed that were personal friends of Burley's argue that he never weighed over 160 in his entire career. It apears this could have been true. that fact makes you have even more respect for Burley when you consider the fighters he met.
My interest in Burley is obvious. What is your interest in Charles? You obviously know a great deal about him. (is it you that is writing the book on Ez? Very long overdue!)
Could you possibly confirm that he was not unbeaten as an amateur as is usually reported. I read that he was beaten in a national final prior to winning the following year.
..more on ezzard later when i have the time...but for now....
where was it reported that he lost an amateur fight? his amateur career was pretty well covered by the local press because he was so impressive. i've never heard of him losing an amateur fight before reading it here.
jake mintz was not ezzard's promoter. his cincinnaty fights were all promoted by the becker brothers, owner of a clothing store. his managers were a combo named elkus, dyer and rhein. elkus was max elkus, owner of another clothing store, and the real manager of charles. the other two were financial backers. charles worked in the elkus store....and even after his early fights when he was gaining recognition, he'd come to work the next day after fighting the night before.
some human interest stuff. for a few minutes before every fight, ezzard insisted on being alone in the dressing room and everyone got out
after every fight...and this is in the cincinnati days, he and max elkus...just the two of them, would sit in the dressing room and have a piece of cake.
jake mintz was a ubiquitous fellow... appearing arond the camps of a lot of boxers. one..he had "contacts" and two he was colorful fellow who knew how to get press coverage for a fight.
he made a very visible tv appearance before the third walcott fight...when he was much more influential in charles's career. that was the night he held up the beginning of the fight by a long arm waving and shouting tirade over one of the judges. if walcott hadn't pulled that upset, it would have been covered much more the next day in the press.....but of course walcott's winning became the major story.
it was really a long delay, and Ezzard's grandmother blamed ezz's loss on "that old jake mintz making all that fuss."
where was it reported that he lost an amateur fight? his amateur career was pretty well covered by the local press because he was so impressive. i've never heard of him losing an amateur fight before reading it here.
jake mintz was not ezzard's promoter. his cincinnaty fights were all promoted by the becker brothers, owner of a clothing store. his managers were a combo named elkus, dyer and rhein. elkus was max elkus, owner of another clothing store, and the real manager of charles. the other two were financial backers. charles worked in the elkus store....and even after his early fights when he was gaining recognition, he'd come to work the next day after fighting the night before.
some human interest stuff. for a few minutes before every fight, ezzard insisted on being alone in the dressing room and everyone got out
after every fight...and this is in the cincinnati days, he and max elkus...just the two of them, would sit in the dressing room and have a piece of cake.
jake mintz was a ubiquitous fellow... appearing arond the camps of a lot of boxers. one..he had "contacts" and two he was colorful fellow who knew how to get press coverage for a fight.
he made a very visible tv appearance before the third walcott fight...when he was much more influential in charles's career. that was the night he held up the beginning of the fight by a long arm waving and shouting tirade over one of the judges. if walcott hadn't pulled that upset, it would have been covered much more the next day in the press.....but of course walcott's winning became the major story.
it was really a long delay, and Ezzard's grandmother blamed ezz's loss on "that old jake mintz making all that fuss."
Charles Amateur Loss
My memory for the details are not exact, but someone was selling an amateur boxing final programme on ebay over a year ago. AAu national finals I think (not too sure).
Ezzard Charles (and I think Jimmy bivivns) were in the finals. There was a photo and small bio on each fighter, but the seller had highlighted Charles beacause he was the biggest selling point for the auction.
In the bio it said something along the lines of Charles doing so well and look to win the title after last years disappointing loss in the same competition.
I wish I could remember more. I did bid on the item, but it finished in the early hours when I was sound asleep. Oh well.
anyone else have any other info on this?
Ezzard Charles (and I think Jimmy bivivns) were in the finals. There was a photo and small bio on each fighter, but the seller had highlighted Charles beacause he was the biggest selling point for the auction.
In the bio it said something along the lines of Charles doing so well and look to win the title after last years disappointing loss in the same competition.
I wish I could remember more. I did bid on the item, but it finished in the early hours when I was sound asleep. Oh well.
anyone else have any other info on this?