Willard-Hopkins

[Collins2000]

Kym, I admire your fortitude but eventually even you will tire of trying to have a rational discussion with that clown.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Willard was a 6-6, 230 pound man who started boxing at age 29. Hopkins easy. Willard wouldn't be able to hit him and Hopkins would out box Willard and hit him at will.

Are you going to be one of the ringside judges for this one?

Perhaps Patricia Jarman-Manning could join you on the officials' card.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

My point being is that men like Hopkins are not that small in a
historical context, just because they make good money fighting
at a lower weight does not mean that they would struggle at a
heavier one. Truth be known Hopkins debuted as a 'HW' in the
historical sense of the word.

- You haven't really taken a good look at your point. Pop lost his debut to a fighter in his debut who shortly retired.

Popkins was a lifelong middle, quite often a few lbs under the limit for his defenses. As a mature fighter his ring weights were never more than mid 160s, indicating he was near his street weight.

Ketchel was 23-24 yrs old and 170 against Johnson, probably his normal street weight. It's silly to think Popkins is this big man when he's really no larger than Ketchel.

Popkins HAS struggled at LH. He beat Tarver handily, but Tarver ain't Tarver no more. He struggled against a jr middle moving up. Had a couple of good rounds against Joe, but wasn't game for a fight and looked very unexecutiony. Looked good against another middle, Pavlik, but that a strange performance out of charactor to his recent history. What, near a decade since his last KO?

Still messing around with the little guys he is, not any legit prime LHs and up.

Ketchel was knocking em down like bowling pins. He'd be no more successful against Willard than he was against Johnson. Thus far Pop has shown less moxie than Ketchal. He ain't the kind of fighter who can really move up successfully.

[Robinson]

Yes, and 170lb street weight means he did no cutting
or very little. He never needed to !!

Hopkins does cut and regardless of what you say or
conclude is an average sized 'hw' in that era.

[observer1]

Well, valid points on both sides.

But it seems the "Oldies are Goldies" crew are going to stick with the Nostalgic factor Mr. Robinson

Though personally, i think Robinson made the more Valid points.
_____________

Here is my analysis:

The thing with Hopkins is, he has never been beaten in the ring. He lost a few decisions, yes, which were debatable in themselves (that's another story), but he has never been beaten.

That said, the only thing i have ever seen him struggle against, albeit later in his career, was "Work-Rate". Due to Hopkins style in his last few bouts, due to his age, he has relied more on 'Technical skill' and 'Timing' rather than the work-rate he once had early in his career.

Although he may land cleaner, hurt his opponent more, even Knock them down, some judges will give rounds to the guy who lands more. Even if their meaningless pitty-pats. Then there's the whole "Compu-Box" argument.

The Hopkins Joe bout is the best example. Hopkins knocked down Joe, landed cleaner, and had Joe wobbled on several occasions. However, Joe "landed" more, though this did not stop Joe's team in his corner yell at Joe "You need a stoppage or you've lost" in the final round.
That said, one idiotic Judge gave it to Joe 116-111 .

Anyway, After the bout, Joe's face had several bruises and a cut on his nose. Hopkins was as he always is, the same after the bout as he was before. He was not hurt nor was he even close to being hurt.

Point is, the only way i see Hopkins losing is via Decision. That, not by being hurt or wobbled, but by being done over by work-rate. Meaning in the eyes of judges, his Cleaner and more effective hits are worth less than multiple pittypats. Since a punch is a punch to some.

This brings in Willard:
Was he Strong? Yes.
Did he have Courage? Yes.
Could he lost the full bout? Yes, had stamina
Was he Quick? NO.
Was he Skillfull? NO, if i am correct, he's mentioned to be quite the lumbering oaf in the ring.

>So imo, Willard has KO power, but Hopkins has a freakishly strong chin, and even better defensive skills. Willard would not be able to look for the KO, since Hopkins would just tie him up, feint and counter imo.

>Nor does Willard have the Skills to outsmart the technical Hopkins, so i see Hopkins being able to counter/lead at will.

>Does he have the speed to at least land something like Joe did, albeit it being meaningless? No

>Will he be able to use his weight to push Hopkins around? I doubt it, since it did not work against a 185lb Dempsey, nor against a 180lbs "Gunboat Smith" whom he was outpointed by.

Not saying it will be the same for Hopkins as Hopkins-Tarver/Pavlik/Trinidad. But i see it being in the same fashion. Willard will land occasionally, but not enough to hurt Hopkins, and not enough to take the rounds.

I personally feel Hopkins takes it by a Comfortable UD. Frustrating Willard, who will have nothing except the ability to KO Hopkins, which Hopkins will seemingly avoid imo.

Can see arguments from both sides, but that's my view

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

The Hopkins Joe bout is the best example. Hopkins knocked down Joe, landed cleaner, and had Joe wobbled on several occasions. However, Joe "landed" more, though this did not stop Joe's team in his corner yell at Joe "You need a stoppage or you've lost" in the final round.
That said, one idiotic Judge gave it to Joe 116-111 .

Anyway, After the bout, Joe's face had several bruises and a cut on his nose. Hopkins was as he always is, the same after the bout as he was before. He was not hurt nor was he even close to being hurt.

- Yeah, Mr. Popkin's skin covering his skull dome is rhino tough and never cuts. That's where the cuts and bruises that Taylor, Winky, and Joe came from. Joe was greatly more shaken from the Jones KD than the Popkins one. Proof is Popkins promptly ran over to opposite ropes to cover up. Guy couldn't bust a bag of popcorn with no KOs for coming into a decade now, and he wobbled Joe is the revision now, eh?

So what if he has an solid chin against welters and middles? At his current age his excessive spoiling tactics are a ruse to cover his lack of stamina and softer chin. Winky stunned him mid round and it was those defensive skills that kept the surprised Winkster from following up. At any rate, Wink and Pop about the same gnat division power level.

Why don't you gents send me an email when Mr. Popkins beats a legit, prime Ring ranked supermid, LH, cruiser, or heavy, can you do that? Or even the overdue rematch with past his best but still tougher and better than he was the first time around Glen Johnson. I don't think that's asking too much and can't be bothered to sit around 24/7/365 waiting on Pop to step up.

Otherwise, the thread is nothing but an old fart joke.

[allworld80]

Joe was greatly more shaken from the Jones KD than the Popkins one.

Roy's "punch" was actually his forearm across the bridge of Joe's nose. Not surprising that it had more effect.

[observer1]

- Yeah, Mr. Popkin's skin covering his skull dome is rhino tough and never cuts. That's where the cuts and bruises that Taylor, Winky, and Joe came from. Joe was greatly more shaken from the Jones KD than the Popkins one. Proof is Popkins promptly ran over to opposite ropes to cover up. Guy couldn't bust a bag of popcorn with no KOs for coming into a decade now, and he wobbled Joe is the revision now, eh?

So what if he has an solid chin against welters and middles? At his current age his excessive spoiling tactics are a ruse to cover his lack of stamina and softer chin. Winky stunned him mid round and it was those defensive skills that kept the surprised Winkster from following up. At any rate, Wink and Pop about the same gnat division power level.

Why don't you gents send me an email when Mr. Popkins beats a legit, prime Ring ranked supermid, LH, cruiser, or heavy, can you do that? Or even the overdue rematch with past his best but still tougher and better than he was the first time around Glen Johnson. I don't think that's asking too much and can't be bothered to sit around 24/7/365 waiting on Pop to step up.

Otherwise, the thread is nothing but an old fart joke.

There is and old fart joke mate, and it ain't this thread.

NO Ko's for close to a decade? You mean about 4 years ago when he KO'd the likes of De La Hoya? or 7 years against the likes of Trinidad?

If you can't remember these, you have no buisness talking about Willard of the early 20th Century do you

You may want to look at the calibre of opponents he has faced before you talk about KO'ing opponents.

Besides, if you had the intellect and attention span to even both to read what i said, you would have noticed i never mentioned anything about KO's Willard, i talked about Hopkins Schooling him silly over the course of 12 Rounds.

[Robinson]

BRR

Aussie Les Darcy was a suggested opponent of Jess Willard,
he was considered a favourite to win. Not just here but also
by experts in the USA< including Jack Dempsey, who claimed
he would have done as well as he did against Willard.


Observer.

Sadly mate, BRR seems to have a blind dislike for some fighters
and will do everything in his powers to dis regard any pro's that
they may have,. And others here seem to be easily romanticised
by what they read, sadly we can not see the entire picture of
how well the Greats of the past fought.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

NO Ko's for close to a decade? You mean about 4 years ago when he KO'd the likes of De La Hoya? or 7 years against the likes of Trinidad?

If you can't remember these, you have no buisness talking about Willard of the early 20th Century do you

You may want to look at the calibre of opponents he has faced before you talk about KO'ing opponents.

Besides, if you had the intellect and attention span to even both to read what i said, you would have noticed i never mentioned anything about KO's Willard, i talked about Hopkins Schooling him silly over the course of 12 Rounds.

- Need to try harder since I never mentioned anything about KOing Willard, although a couple of your Popkins' fanboys did. He can't punch any more as I obliquely alluded to.

Yeah, I remember the oddball Oscar KO that many claimed fraud on. The last time he visibly punched someone out was Daniels over 7 yrs ago. Hakkar was a fraud who ran around the ring like a scalded cat and quit.

I'm well aware of Mr. Popkins' legacy welt names of Tito and Oscar, but none of his competition prepares him for a prime Willard. I'd say we could make the Iron Boy private match reality to see how Iron Boy would twist him up in a granny knot. That's more plausible and a fight that could be proven.

We won't ever see him step up and take on a Dimitrenko for example, so the fanboys are blowing smoke up each other's shorts with this thread. Why won't he really step up with a prime supermid, LH, cruiser, or heavy por favor.

Simple, one single name to qualify this thread. Is your champion ever gonna show? Devon Vargas needs a fight. David Rodriguez, Travis Walker, Jason Estrada, just a single outer fringe ranking contender.

Just a wee teensy smidgen of proof is not an unreasonable request.

[observer1]

Tarver?

Dude, you're talking about a 43 year old ex-Middleweight

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

BRR

Aussie Les Darcy was a suggested opponent of Jess Willard,
he was considered a favourite to win. Not just here but also
by experts in the USA< including Jack Dempsey, who claimed
he would have done as well as he did against Willard.
.

- My stars man, I give you more credit than the above.

What would a hobo like Dempsey know about an Aussie who retired in 1916? And what has this to do with the price of Gummy Bears in China?

I'm just going to assume the above is an inexplicable anomaly and not representative of your hereto solid acumen.

It ain't hate boys. I'm genuinely mystified how anyone can take the thread seriously. When will Mr. Popkins show us these mystical powers he has?

[observer1]

[Robinson]

Indeed.

Yes and what would the boxing experts at the time know of him ?
The lad died of blood poisoning from a gum infection, so he hardly
retired as such.

In any case, Darcy would no doubt have cleaned up Willard, as
the Pacman sized Darcy was quite capable at defeating the big
men of his time....He died at 21.

[raylawpc]

Aussie Les Darcy was a suggested opponent of Jess Willard,
he was considered a favourite to win. Not just here but also
by experts in the USA< including Jack Dempsey, who claimed
he would have done as well as he did against Willard.

Kym, I'm curious if you have any contemporary sources for the information you give in this post.

[Ox Baker]

Aussie Les Darcy was a suggested opponent of Jess Willard,
he was considered a favourite to win. Not just here but also
by experts in the USA< including Jack Dempsey, who claimed
he would have done as well as he did against Willard.

Dempsey was noted for speaking extremely well of the recent deceased. Who knows if he ever even saw Darcy in the ring?

[Robinson]

I have two docos on Les Darcy and I shall scrounge some up.
I think on YT there is a mini Darcy bio thing.

Let me find some gents.

Here in Oz, Darcy is royalty, especially amongs the old timers.

[Robinson]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=9 ... 12,6749019

Here is a recollection...

The story of Australia’s greatest and most tragic boxer, Les Darcy. At 19 Darcy was the middleweight and heavyweight champion of Australia and a contender for the world title. But he was fighting against the backdrop of World War One and Australia was torn by the issue of conscription.

Rewind investigates how Les Darcy became a political pawn in the conscription debate and why the county’s most famous sporting hero did a runner for the United States, stowing away on a tramp steamer before tragically dying at just 21 in a Memphis Hospital.

MICHAEL CATHCART: Now, 90 years ago, there was a young bloke whose name was as familiar to Australians as, say, Ian Thorpe is today. A big-hearted, courageous 19-year-old boxer who was idolised around the country. Yet, two years later he was dead, and branded, of all things, a coward, his reputation ruined by a controversy that bitterly divided Australia - whether young men should be conscripted and sent off to war. Here's Rewind historian Rebe Taylor with the story of Les Darcy.

GREG GROWDEN, AUTHOR: I think without a doubt, Les Darcy is possibly Australia's greatest fighter. Even now, he's up there with Don Bradman and Phar Lap as the...a great... the Australian sporting saint.

REBE TAYLOR: Les Darcy won 46 of his 50 professional bouts in the ring. At just 19, he was middle and heavyweight boxing champion of Australia, and a serious contender for the world crown.

JACK STITT, BOXING HISTORIAN: He won the version of the world's title at 19. He was never actually hurt in the ring, never knocked down, never cut, never staggered, and so strong and powerful he just made these fellows look second-rate.

REBE TAYLOR: Les Darcy was perhaps Australia's greatest boxer. But while so brave in the ring, he would be branded as one of our biggest cowards. He was a man caught between his love of his country, his devotion to his mother and his desire for fame and fortune. Darcy country - the rolling hills of Maitland, two hours north of Sydney. This bark hut was Les's first home. His father, a farm labourer, struggled to support eight children. Les began work as a blacksmith's apprentice. It was good training for his real passion - boxing.

HARRY BOYLE: They had an abnormally long reach - all the Darcys.

REBE TAYLOR: Very long arms.

As a young boy, Harry Boyle was a close friend of the Darcy family in Maitland.

HARRY BOYLE: Of a Sunday he would put the gloves on with anyone who'd like to step in with him. And what used to happen was he wouldn't hurt them, but they could go as hard as they liked. That's where he was building up his defence, you know?

REBE TAYLOR: Having beaten all-comers locally, the Maitland Wonder was ready for the big time. And Sydney was very big time. The world's biggest indoor stadium was at Rushcutters Bay. Huge fights were hosted there, like the 1908 world heavyweight title between the great black boxer Jack Johnson and Canadian Tommy Burns. Promoter Snowy Baker could make £20,000 in a single night. Always on the lookout for new talent, the kid from Maitland caught his eye.

GREG GROWDEN: I think Baker and a few of them twigged that this guy could be the person, that Darcy could be the man. So they organised his first fight at the stadium which ended up in a riot.

REBE TAYLOR: Outraged that the controversial decision went to the American middleweight Fritz Holland, Darcy's fans set fire to the stadium.

GREG GROWDEN: And in the middle of this chaos, I think Snowy looked at his brother Harold and thought, "I think we've found the guy, we've got the boxer."

REBE TAYLOR: And they had. Snowy Baker's protege vanquished every challenger from home and abroad, almost without injury. But in one fight, his two front teeth were knocked out and stapled back in with gold pins. Films of the fights made Les a celebrity in America, and every penny he earned went to his mother - over £10,000 during his time in the ring.

JACK STITT: He was fighting mainly not for himself but for his family. His family was big and poor, and he wanted to provide for them.

REBE TAYLOR: But a much bigger fight would soon test his loyalties and eventually destroy him. The Great War was consuming a generation of young men, and as the casualties mounted, Prime Minister Billy Hughes, the 'Little Digger', mounted a referendum campaign to conscript all men over 21. The advertising blitz seemed to directly target the young boxer.

WARTIME ADVERTISEMENTS: "The War cannot be won on points
It must be a Knock-out."

"Now is the hour when Australia is called upon to gird up her loins and make her great effort."

"His Majesty King George asks you to vote YES on the 28th."

REBE TAYLOR: If Les was to enlist, it would be a huge boost to the prime minister's campaign. He did complete military training with the Maitland Light Horse. But he couldn't formally enlist. He was under 21 and he needed his mother's permission.

HARRY BOYLE: The whole story of Les Darcy is really the story of a boy's love for his mother. And he done everything for her, like, to put her on easy street. And it was her, actually, by refusing to sign his enlistment papers and that, that caused all his trouble.

REBE TAYLOR: She didn't want him to go to war?

HARRY BOYLE: She wouldn't let him go to war because he was under-age and she had to sign the papers and wouldn't do it.

REBE TAYLOR: Darcy received white feathers in the mail - a fierce accusation of cowardice. Promoter Snowy Baker felt the political heat as financial backers threatened to pull the plug. In August 1916, Snowy announced that Darcy would have no more fights until he enlisted.

GREG GROWDEN: Les Darcy, I think, realised his best way of helping Australia was to be a great boxer because he thought that was a great way of uplifting morale. And the fights sort of just dried up. And he was in a situation where he didn't know where to turn.

REBE TAYLOR: So what did he do? Having been denied a passport, Darcy secretly boarded a tramp steamer at Newcastle Harbour and hid under a tarpaulin. His destination - New York. Australia's most famous sportsman had done a runner. When Les arrived in New York, he was met by a mob of promoters promising fights and great riches. But the controversy had followed him. Les was again compelled to defend his honour.

MAN AS LES DARCY: "It's great to be here in America. Before I left Australia, I informed the authorities of my willingness to join the army. But before I don the uniform, I wanted a little money to take care of my folks."

REBE TAYLOR: The campaign against Darcy became vicious on both sides of the Pacific.

MAN AS AUSTRALIAN REPORTER: "What has Les Darcy done for Australia? He has turned tail and made a bolt of it the moment when it seemed he could no longer dodge his plain duty to his country that has fed and pampered him."

REBE TAYLOR: New York's famous boxing columnist Damon Runyon joined the fray.

MAN AS DAMON RUNYON: "The commercial eye of the fight promoters recognised his money-making possibilities and they caused him to forget his duty."

REBE TAYLOR: Les's former mentor Snowy Baker drove the final nail into his professional coffin.

MAN AS SNOWY BAKER: "Owing to Les Darcy's unpatriotic action and clearing out from his country at a time when he should be doing his bit with his comrades, it's been decided to strip him of his middleweight and heavyweight titles."

REBE TAYLOR: So do you think he was trying to shirk his duty?

BOB POWERS: No. Definitely not. He wasn't. A man like Darcy... Look, he was fearless in the ring. He'd beaten some of the greatest boxers that America could send out. So he was no shirker, no coward.

REBE TAYLOR: The hate campaign bit deeper still. With America poised to enter the war, state governors branded Darcy a coward and banned him from boxing. Desperate, Les took out American citizenship and enlisted with the US Air Corps. But it was too late. In Memphis, Tennessee, Darcy fell ill. The two front teeth that had been stapled back into his gums in Sydney became ulcerated. The infection spread to his bloodstream. Pneumonia followed. Les died on May 24, 1917, far from home. He was just 21. Branded a coward in life, in death he was reinstated a hero. A quarter of a million people lined Sydney's Oxford Street as his casket was taken to Central Station on the boxer's final journey back to Maitland.

HARRY BOYLE: In my opinion, Les was just a big-hearted country lad and other people took advantage of him.

GREG GROWDEN: He was one of Australia's great sportsmen. But did he reach his full potential? What could he have done in America? Could he have been one of the greatest boxers of all time?

REBE TAYLOR: Les Darcy never fought in the trenches. But the war stole him from his loving mother anyway.

[raylawpc]

Thanks Kym.