Should the heavyweight division be banned?

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 24 Aug 2004, 09:14

I'm serious. The division is frankly an embarrassment to boxing. In this country, we have an aging British champion who only turned to boxing to make some quick money after a failed K1 career.
Like most heavyweights, he wins on sheer brute strength as opposed to any skill.
We also have Audley Harrison, who is so bad, he drove away his TV backers despite the fact they had coughed up a million quid to screen him.
But that's nothing compared to the American scene. American heavyweights are the pits! Even one of our boys, who lost in an appalling British title fight in January, could go over there and kick the arse of Mike Tyson recently.
And last night, an American super-heavyweight gave possibly the most lacklustre performance ever seen in an Olympic Games.
The proliferation of Mickey Mouse titles and the demise of 15-rounders, has meant that any out-of-shape heavy can go for a pro title on a Cedric Kushner or Don King show it seems. Australia's Kali Meehan lost in 32 seconds to Danny Williams - and finds himself challenging for a 'world' title next month.
The division has reached a point where it needs ousting. All men over 15 stone should bury their heads in a rugby scrum in my opinion.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 24 Aug 2004, 09:20

I would argue that the reason for Audley's career going the way it has is in fact BECAUSE of the million quid. The BBC allowed him to top the bill and choose his own opponents which was a big mistake. It attracted so much negative attention because he was appearing on the top of the bill and some of the fights were dire. He would have done a lot better had he been busier and less high profile. Audley has some serious problems now.

As for the rest of the division, historically the heavyweight division has always been piss poor, the good spots are the exception, not the rule. Even in Ali's era the division was chock full of lumbering brutes like Wepner and Alfredo Evangelista. It's easy to remember Ali, Frazier, Shavers, Norton, Foreman etc, but for every one of them, there were 10 big crude maulers.

Matchfixer · Post by **Matchfixer** » 24 Aug 2004, 09:25

bennie wrote: The division has reached a point where it needs ousting. All men over 15 stone should bury their heads in a rugby scrum in my opinion.

Lennox Lewis was over 15 stone and lok at the success he achieved. Vitali Klitschko might not be amazing but he's still a very good fighter.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:12

Pound for pound, Vitali Klitschko couldn't live with the smaller men. He's essentially a hard-punching amateur.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:17

Do you think Rocky Marciano could have lived with Ray Robinson, pound for pound?

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:18

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Do you think Rocky Marciano could have lived with Ray Robinson, pound for pound?

No. But at least The Rock squared up as a good fighter. Klitschko, and even Lewis at times, has a serious balance problem like all novices.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:23

Incidentally, I don't really think the heavies should quite be banned, but I do believe there should be a limit to the weight they come in at, as with all the other divisions - violation of human rights or not.
Ask yourself this, what big hulking heavy has ever been able to fight?

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:25

The list begins and ends with Lennox Lewis.

journeyman · Post by **journeyman** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:25

bennie wrote:Incidentally, I don't really think the heavies should quite be banned, but I do believe there should be a limit to the weight they come in at, as with all the other divisions - violation of human rights or not.
Ask yourself this, what big hulking heavy has ever been able to fight?

george foreman

journeyman · Post by **journeyman** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:26

bennie wrote:Incidentally, I don't really think the heavies should quite be banned, but I do believe there should be a limit to the weight they come in at, as with all the other divisions - violation of human rights or not.
Ask yourself this, what big hulking heavy has ever been able to fight?

sonny liston

journeyman · Post by **journeyman** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:26

bennie wrote:Incidentally, I don't really think the heavies should quite be banned, but I do believe there should be a limit to the weight they come in at, as with all the other divisions - violation of human rights or not.
Ask yourself this, what big hulking heavy has ever been able to fight?

jim jeffries

Matchfixer · Post by **Matchfixer** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:26

bennie wrote:Pound for pound, Vitali Klitschko couldn't live with the smaller men. He's essentially a hard-punching amateur.

Pound for pound is irrelevant. If a guy can win and he's 260 pounds then where's the problem?

Danny Williams boxes very nicely for such a big man.

journeyman · Post by **journeyman** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:26

bennie wrote:Incidentally, I don't really think the heavies should quite be banned, but I do believe there should be a limit to the weight they come in at, as with all the other divisions - violation of human rights or not.
Ask yourself this, what big hulking heavy has ever been able to fight?

riddick bowe

journeyman · Post by **journeyman** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:27

bennie wrote:Incidentally, I don't really think the heavies should quite be banned, but I do believe there should be a limit to the weight they come in at, as with all the other divisions - violation of human rights or not.
Ask yourself this, what big hulking heavy has ever been able to fight?

lennox lewis

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:29

And today?

Matchfixer · Post by **Matchfixer** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:29

bennie wrote:And today?

Danny Williams.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:31

Matchfixer wrote:
bennie wrote:And today?
Danny Williams.

You think Danny Williams is that good!

Matchfixer · Post by **Matchfixer** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:34

bennie wrote:
Matchfixer wrote:
bennie wrote:And today?
Danny Williams.
You think Danny Williams is that good!

He's a big hulking heavy that can fight in answer to your original question.

Obviously not in the league of Bowe or or Lewis.

AN=nd let's not forget about our Golden boy from Sydney AH. Very light on his feet and very talented.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:38

Matchfixer wrote:
bennie wrote:
Matchfixer wrote: Danny Williams.
You think Danny Williams is that good!
He's a big hulking heavy that can fight in answer to your original question.

Obviously not in the league of Bowe or or Lewis.

AN=nd let's not forget about our Golden boy from Sydney AH. Very light on his feet and very talented.

Audley's got the right idea with the weight. He brings himself down and he fights better. Danny weighed in at a career heaviest for Tyson and fought a career best fight, but I still believe it was more mental than physical. Put Danny in with someone he hasn't got a chance with, and he performs. He might not look so good against Maskaev.
But Danny Williams is hardly enough to dissuade me from my belief that there should be a heavyweight weight limit of, say, 17 stone.

journeyman · Post by **journeyman** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:43

bennie wrote:
Matchfixer wrote:
bennie wrote: You think Danny Williams is that good!
He's a big hulking heavy that can fight in answer to your original question.

Obviously not in the league of Bowe or or Lewis.

AN=nd let's not forget about our Golden boy from Sydney AH. Very light on his feet and very talented.
Audley's got the right idea with the weight. He brings himself down and he fights better. Danny weighed in at a career heaviest for Tyson and fought a career best fight, but I still believe it was more mental than physical. Put Danny in with someone he hasn't got a chance with, and he performs. He might not look so good against Maskaev.
But Danny Williams is hardly enough to dissuade me from my belief that there should be a heavyweight weight limit of, say, 17 stone.

actually, i think you have a good point - most heavies today seem to neglect skill, technique and stamina for brute strength and size. i think the question that a lot of people fail to ask and answer is why they do this. my thinking is because it's enough for them to keep winning. by your rationale, a smaller guy with better stamina and technique should be able to come along and handle them all - and that's happening. it just needs to happen more is all. and who knows - maybe someone will come out of the cruiser division.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:50

George Foreman, Sonny Liston and Jim Jeffries all weighed a lot less than Lennox Lewis and were all a lot smaller.

Foreman 6'3 1/2" - 215-230 lbs in his prime, though probably weight drained by the sounds of things in a lot of fights. 240 tops would have been his best weight probably.

Sonny Liston 6'1" and 210-215 in his prime.

Jim Jeffries. 6' 2" 220 in his prime.

There have been men of Lewis' size and bigger prior to his arrival, but none of them could fight like Lewis. Lewis and Bowe are the only two men of that size to combine size and skills so well. Primo Carnera, Buddy Baer, Abe Atell, Jess Willard and many others were as big and bigger, but none were that skifull.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:51

Lewis was probably at his best around 240 lbs.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 24 Aug 2004, 10:57

Interesting posts, James. So Lewis was at his best at just over 17 stone. I thought Riddick Bowe looked dynamite in the first Holyfield fight (be nice to know what he weighed) but seemed to come in heavy for the second and third fights (again, I don't know what he weighed), and struggled. Eddie Futch gave up on him because he wouldn't keep his weight down.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 24 Aug 2004, 11:03

235 for the first fight, 246 for the second. Interestingly, he never got back under 240 for the rest of his career until the 2nd Golota fight, when he apparently took diuretics I heard.

Looking at his early career, he often scaled under 230, and his best weight range judging by performances was against 225-235.

He actually scaled UNDER 220 twice early on in his career.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 24 Aug 2004, 11:06

jamesmcdonnell wrote:235 for the first fight, 246 for the second. Interestingly, he never got back under 240 for the rest of his career until the 2nd Golota fight, when he apparently took diuretics I heard.

Looking at his early career, he often scaled under 230, and his best weight range judging by performances was against 225-235.

He actually scaled UNDER 220 twice early on in his career.

Bowe looked a right state for the second fight with Golota, there was definitely something amiss.

Should the heavyweight division be banned?

Should the heavyweight division be banned?

Re: Should the heavyweight division be banned?